Dragonflight Season 4 Dungeon Changes Ahead

Community General Discussion
555

There is plenty of content without timers. The M+ timer is what makes M+ exciting and what pushes you to improve at the game. It is also makes the required time for a dungeon run more predictable, i.e. you know you won’t be in there for two hours, people won’t afk for a smoke, check on kids, make some food, take a bio break, etc. in a clearly defined block of time. You may go over by a few minutes, but almost all runs are +/- 10 minutes.

The timer does not make M+ inaccessible to “casuals”. There is no connection between the two. You can be casual, e.g. play a few hours a weeks or not have competitive ambitions and still be able to do more challenging content (and want to do it). Likewise, you can play the game for eight+ hours a day and still not be interested in challenging content.

Everyone finds their ceiling in M+. For me right now it’s somewhere around 22, for some of my friends it is at 26 this season, other friends don’t venture beyond 18s, yet others are happy with 11. It’s a very scalable system and the timer helps that players stay in the content that matches their current skill, experience, and interest level. If you remove the timer, more people would probably have a miserable time because they’d start doing content that they lack experience or skill for (cf. Cataclysm heroics before they were heavily nerfed).

The reward is the sense of accomplishment when you complete a key in time that you had not previously managed to finish within the timer. If that’s not for you, you can just ignore the timer. Like you said, you still get loot.

556

its garbage quality gear - since whole gear goes up +39 itlv.

557

It’ equivalent of what are now low keys :neutral_face:

ATM 489max - 428 hc = 61 ilvl gap
S4 528max - 476 hc = 52 ilvl gap

And that is without weekly hc vault.

558

Yes, on the MDI, but not when someone in group randomly disconnects and your key is doomed. Either remove timer (better IMO) or remove key downgrade for not completing the key, just keep it the same level if it depletes.

The timer it’s an archaic remnant from an early era when things weren’t yet settled (8 years ago btw…).

I improve at the game for the satisfaction of it, not because there is a timer, it’s a completely subjective reason.

Wrong, people will do all that regardless of the timer (maybe you’re new to the game and still conserve all those false ideals).

And worst case scenario you can always leave if it’s taking too long, it doesn’t change anything in that regard.

Again that’s the theory, but the reality we live in pug world is that every keystone is a casino, sometimes you get average people, sometimes you get carried, sometimes you can’t time a key even if you’re sweating as if you ran a marathon.

Everything is so random that it’s basically impossible to determine your own skill by regular methods if you don’t run with a premade group. Also there’s TOO MANY key levels, I’m glad they are reducing it because holy molly it’s so annoying having so many key levels that are basically the same difficulty but with a different number…

It’s the opposite, if you remove the timer people will be more likely to give it a chance and people will be less toxic, because you remove the pressure and the stress, which is the reason why people get so toxic. Also there’s so many people with anxiety and other disorders that will be more likely to get into it.

From there it’s just regular human learning, nobody is born a sage.

When I speak about rewards I mean about OBJECTIVE rewards (aka loot), you can feel accomplishment killing rats in Stormwind if you want because that’s subjective, but then there’s the real world with the real rewards.

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559

Pugging is a choice you make, though. Doing any content with random people that you don’t know and that you’re not even in a voice chat with is the worst possible way of doing it. You wouldn’t do progress Mythic Raiding with PUGs, why would you do higher keys with random people and expect it to be a generally positive experience?

It’s much better to play with friends, guild mates, or people from the various Discord communities. The latter takes only minimally more effort than clicking groups in the LFG tool, but you reliably get better experiences. (I did pug a lot when gearing this healer, and most of my experiences were good - but I don’t expect that when I pug.)

I don’t know about that. I feel that it makes sense in the low and mid range of keys, but after 20 (10 in the future), I think more subtle increases in difficulty would be preferable, because each key level is noticeably harder than the one before (after 20).

This is a mindset that I feel changes games for the worse. I greatly appreciate that there are no tangible rewards after 20 (10 in the future), because that is a key level that I feel most players can realistically achieve, even if it may take a few weeks. There is plenty of room for mistakes and inconsietent performance, and so everyone can get the portals. Beyond that, there’s only the .1% title. If there were other “material” rewards after 20, a lot of players would feel excluded. That would then further drive people to buying boosts and lead to requests for nerfs and suggestions for changes like the removal of the timer.

I don’t know, I generally feel that people are too hung up on getting “stuff” and participation trophies instead of doing things for the experience and the fun of doing them.

At least this way you get to play with people who don’t feel forced to do content they don’t want to do. I see that with my WoW acquaintances too. Most settle for 18s for the material rewards, and runs with them feel mundane and like a chore. I have more fun attempting runs beyond 20, even if a good number of them fail, because the handful of friends who do have an interest in doing that actually want to improve and beat their old records. It makes for a better, more exciting experience.

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560

well there are different types of people.
I mean I like the challenge (if i feel like it) to go higher than 20s, but once I have completed a 23, I don’t really want to complete the 23 again, because it is meaningless and if it fails it is not even fun.
Once you have run a dungeons over hundreds of time, I don’t know how many people really have fun doing it again and again.

I agree making rewards for higher keys will just lead to nerfing keys or making a new bar, but you can actually do something that doesn’t exclude people.

bfa actually did something similar if i remember correctly.
There was a vendor for azerite gear and that cost a certain amount of currency. The higher the dungeon you run, the more currency you get, but low dungeons also gave currency.

basically you could put stuff ingame that everyone can get eventually, but higher players can get all of it and get it faster.

561

well they cannot remove them now obviously.

Blizz still designs with raids as a priority though. You can see that from the loot tables.
If you don’t raid you always were and probably always will be at a disadvantage.
no legendary, no op trinkets, no early tier etc.

I don’t know why they are still so hell bend on this raiding philosophy considering raiding is a dying feature as people, like you said just don’t have the time for it or/and also just don’t like to wipe 3492049823 times on one boss over and over again

it is a higher barrier… I mean for me M0 will still be brain afk content as is +11 now and free farm. But for others, +6 seems to be very challenging and they frequently fail.
Will be interesting to see how many M0 will end up in failure, although I will probably not be part of that.
Just wonder how fast they will nerf M0 and then have a scaling issue with M+2

562

I don’t agree. If someone disconnects the key is doomed with or with out a timer.

Also, disconnects is but a fraction of deplete causes. 99% of the time its wipes. So the answer to that is not remove the timer. Its: L2P and don’t wipe.

Look. If you want chill stuff then raid. That is what its for. M+ is a high-octane race.

All the problems you mention with depletes can be solved by giving you alternative means to increase your key. For example: Using crests and flightstones to do it.

Then keep doing it. If you improve, you will time keys. With or without the timer. And if you cant time it, it means you have not improved enough. So GJ. Its the way its supposed to be done.

In the middle of a run? Doing all that? Almost never. The few times I witnessed something like that it was an emergency. Kid fell off the couch. But a smoke? Nah.

What? You think raiders and PvPers dont have that as well? Its YOUR choice to PuG stuff instead of socializing a bit and running with people you know. And I emphasize “people you know”. Which is not the same as “premade”.

No. People are toxic because they have unrealistic expectations. And they will continue to do so.

Im SO against this. WoW is SO VAST that there is a spot for everyone. Catering to a minority with disabilities is absolutely not acceptable.

Those people have much more content that they can do. Let them do it.

This is a massive can of worms. You want more rewards? You have to then increase hero and mythic track gear to keys higher than 20. In the 25/26 range.

Not to mention the effect it would have in Raiding. So raiders will also give their share of complaints.

I agree that we need more rewards. But asking specifically for loot is getting yourself into a hole you might not be able to climb out of.

563

That is a deplete key problem.

You solve it by allowing crests and flightstones to buy key upgrades. That way, it would not be so bad to fail and you wont end up doing 23s again and again to up your key to a 24. Not to mention that it would reward you for doing someone elses key.

And then, there is the “Psicological” aspect of Rio rating. The PvPers with their rating got it kinda “right” in that aspect. They apply inflation to the overall rating. So that across a season players always have the impression that they are improving.

It sounds dumb I know. But it works.

And the third point is non-loot rewards. You could add the 0.2%. 0.5%, 1% title… With some mogs and mounts here and there. What I would do though, is do the titles by spec. I think that is what should be done.

Why? Because if you do it by spec you promote non-meta classes. Its basically rewarding people for playing the “underdog”.

564

Unfortunately nope. Some people like myself play sporadically so I cannot afford to have neither a guild or a premade group, and the few friends I made from random enconters also play sporadically so there is no real way of playing without pugging for a lot of people.

I return the question to you, why not? If there wasn’t extra pressure from affixes, timers, and key downgrades I assure you it would be a more pleasing experience for everyone.

Toxicity will never be completely gone but it can certainly be reduced to anecdotal levels with the proper changes.

It does make sense to have low and mid range keys, what it doesn’t make sense is to have 30 keystone levels when half would be enough, specially if you take into account that most key ranges are useless for improving your gear.

I feel like it’s the opposite, people buy boosts because getting loot is SO annoying, unfair and boring that you’d rather pay and be done with it.

I’ve never paid for a boost and never will, but I see no fun in doing the same dungeon 50 times trying to snipe an item. The system needs a change for sure.

That’s just another way of playing the game, to each his own.

Emm nope, you can complete most keys even if a DPS is missing, sometimes even without a healer depending on the team comp, dungeon, affixes and key level.

Wipes cause disbands because of the timer and keystone downgrades, if those were gone, people would be more likely to stay and try a new approach to the pull/boss until they manage to get it done.

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565

We have communities for that. You can join once in a blue moon a run.

Except above +20 basically every keylevel has ilvl upgrade in the dungeonloot or the vaultloot.
But what blizz will do in the next season is completely remove all the low range keys.

566

And what’s the difference between a community and a pug? It’s the same, people you don’t know and will most likely never meet again.

567

People who are on voice and don’t leave over nothing. It is quite a big deal. You can even coordinate stuff.

568

So you are telling me that the random who doesn’t even have his interrupt binded will magically follow instructions perfectly if we are in voice? :sweat_smile:

569

You might be in luck and actually get decent people who just need that tiny bit coordination of what is getting pulled next and/or who is interrupting that toxic bloom so other people can interrupt other stuff, which will help your runs by a lot.

Maybe it is even very enjoyable and your group stays together for a follow up key.

570

You can achieve the same results just typing so I still don’t see any extra benefit.

571

Typing while playing is very difficult. Voice is quite OP in comparison to the chat, who nobody reads anyway. But obviously you do you :+1:

I only explained why people do not need to pug at all.

572

You don’t have type while playing, you post the route and set interrupt order or specific section strategies before the dungeon starts. :man_shrugging:

573

Yes, and you think people remember every coordinated interrupt for half an hour? It is easier to say it when the pull is coming. Or just the small coordination of which way you move with sanguine. There is so much that makes your run easier on voice.

You also seem to ignore the 0 leavers in communities.

574

haha that was funny.