Since announcing our tuning adjustments to the acquisition rate of the legendary staff Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa’s Rest in Firelands, we’ve been listening to your feedback, particularly about the acquisition rate for 10-player groups.
Upon further review, we’ve decided to increase the drops of Eternal Embers, Seething Cinders, and Smouldering Essences across both 10-player Normal and Heroic difficulties, so that the speed of acquiring Dragonwrath for those group sizes will be drastically increased.
We now expect:
During a 12-week period, a 25-player raid killing all 7 bosses in Firelands each week can expect to fully assemble 4-6 Legendary Dragonwrath staves.
During the same 12-week period, a 10-player raid killing all 7 bosses can expect to fully assemble 3-4.5 Legendary staves.
Please keep in mind that multiple staves can be assembled simultaneously, with up to 3 players collecting the different materials that drop from each boss.
UPDATED November 4
We’ve heard your feedback loud and clear! We’re happy that you’re excited about the recent changes to 10-player Dragonwrath acquisition rates and we want to address those who prioritize 25-player groups. We’re are increasing the acquisition rates of all quest materials in 25 Normal and Heroic difficulties:
During a 12-week period, a 25-player group killing all 7 bosses in Firelands each week can expect to fully assemble 7.5-11.25 Legendary Dragonwrath staves.
During the same 12-week period, a 10-player group killing all 7 bosses can expect to fully assemble 3-4.5 Legendary staves.
Acquisition rates in 25-player raids are now approximately 2.5x faster than those of 10-player raids.
The updated acquisition rates previously mentioned for 10 player raids are the same.
We’re adding a second guaranteed mount, the Smoldering Egg of Millagazor, to 25-Heroic Ragnaros.
Thank you for your feedback. We hope you’re enjoying Rage of the Firelands. We’re looking forward to the launch of the Firelands raid next week!
This is not it. This only forces certain 25 man raiding guilds to run 2 x 10 splits or 3 x 10 splits until they get the staff for all of their casters. It makes literally 0 sense to have it this way. You’ve just proven that once again you don’t actually listen to the community, but rather listen to certain creators with 0 brain.
What do you propose they do, then? Force 10 mans into 25 mans if they want staves, like it was before this change?
Honestly, I don’t think they can win here unless they manage to find a solution where both 10 and 25 has the exact same gathering rate. And even then, 10 would probably have the advantage due to the raid size being smaller, making each staff more valuable.
What do you mean “Force 10 mans into 25 mans if they want staves, like it was before this change?”??? Before this change on average 10 man raids would get 2-3 legendary staffs through the whole phase. On the other hand 25 man raids would get 6-8 legendary staffs through the whole phase. Considering theres 3 range DPS on average in 10 man and 10 range DPS on average in 25 man, that sounds just about right. Usually 2-3 caster DPS in 10 man and 8 caster DPS in 25. It was balanced as it was.
And even if they wanted to help 10 man raiders get their staffs quicker than it was, at least balance it out so people in 25 man raids shouldnt benefit doing 10 man raids. Right now you can join a 25 man raiding guild and if theres 8 caster DPS, that means 2 to 4 of you wont get the staff in those 3 months we have. Meanwhile you can join a 10 man raiding guild and by the end you would have 3 to 4 staffs, meaning you are literally giving 1 to your healers’ OS.
If you are not seeing how is that an issue, i dont know what to tell you. Not to mention 25 raids are genuinely harder if you look at the fact you need 25 competent people. It’s way easier to get 10 competent players and blast through 10m HC content.
Scottejaye explained the previous 10/25 issue better than I ever could in a video a few days ago;
h ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P_cGIIwkVw&ab_channel=Scottejaye
Personally though, I believe the core issue is having 10 and 25 award the same loot. I get that there are lots of people enjoying 10 man raiding, but I still feel ICC had it right with only rewarding 25 mans legendaries. Or you will run into issues like this one. And as I said in my previous post, I honestly don’t know how to make it fair between the two sizes. No matter which path they decide to take, someone is probably gonna end up winning. And since players always pick the path of least resistance, that’s a problem. That’s why I also asked what do you think they should do instead? Because I don’t know how to solve it.
They said : “We’re also planning to extend the Firelands phase of Cataclysm Classic beyond the previously-announced January end date, to give as many players as possible the chance to experience this legendary raid and craft their very own Dragonwrath, Tarecgosa’s Rest.” So the phase for sure is more than 3 months.
25 is harder than 10? in Classic? Are you joking? Competent people? You can literally do the raid with carrying 5 people that’s why gdkps won’t try carrying people in 10. in 10 you have to think about good comp, above average dps and long term attendance while in 25 you can lose almost 5 core members and still be able to get the raid and guild going. How? People prefer doing 25 pugs cause more gear and being under less pressure. Comp doesn’t matter compared to 10 and you have more combat ress for guys who are carrying your group.
At this point whatever blizzard do people are gonna disagree cause you can’t balance a thing for everyone to be happy.
So 25m got a huge advantage in Tier 11 when it comes to difficulty and drop rate, now people are complaining that 10m get a small consolation prize which affects a limited amount of people?
This is actually really funny to read, on here, wowhead, MMO, everyone seems to think this is game breaking.
From my position, I am in a 10m HC guild. This change plus the extension to DS launch, means our 4 casters are likely to complete in time or require minimal extra farming in DS. (we would have farmed in DS for all our casters to get this).
I’m seeing lots of comments about guilds saying they have 10+ casters and this is impacting their ability to give everyone a staff. If a change thats coming out a week before the raid launch, and your guild doesn’t have a plan for its legendaries now, you got more things to worry about. The average for a 25 man group is between 7-8 casters.
Your guild is not forced into rolling from 25 to 10 man. I would argue 10 man is harder than 25 from a performance perspective, 25 mans have to get 25 people to show up but there is less emphasis on individual performances.
Anything where you think you are being forced, is merely you being sweaty. If you were a caster that wasn’t getting it before, what has changed? Just the percieved idea that you could get one if your whole guild decided to change their raiding format, which they won’t because they weren’t going to give you the staff anyway.
Stop being sweaty, calm down. I’m off to make more popcorn…
a lot of the top and mightiest GDKP Organizations on different discords has already sold Staff reservations for large sums of money and ingame gold and now you gonna shaft them by making it even easier to get? You are ruining the point of doing business and GDKP on your game by catering to casuals and people who are too lazy to farm gold.
Nobody want to raidlead a hard raid like FL if theres no incentive for it and GDKP is great since 20% of the total gold pot usually goes to the organizer.
I honestly cant tell if you are joking or just really cant see it. The solve is pretty simple. Whatever 10 man is getting, triple that or at least double it. If you want to be 100% accurate, since its 10 man compared to 25, thats 2.5 times more. Currently its literally close to 1:1 ratio. 3 in worst case for 10 man and 4 in worst case for 25 man. How is that even right???
Scottejaye is someone i would never watch. Why? Cause he spits stuff he doesnt even understand. My man thinks he is some top tier wow player. No. He is just an old man that have played wow for long. He is probably the reason this change came, because he praised how poor 10 man raids are with their 2-3 staffs for a whole phase…
They cant make the phase longer than 4 months. It’s just not happening.
25 is times harder than 10. I am not joking, obviously you haven’t touched anything in 25 man. GDKPs want 25 cause its more gold per hour spent. But f GDKPs, they are just a different reason game is dying. Lets look at your other takes. We get more loot in 25, more brez and 5 people can carry a 25 man raid. We get 3 times more loot than a 10 man does. This is literally 0.5 loot more than we should get. If that bother you, cool. I’ll make sure to DE one item per raid from now on to make you happier. We get 3 brez per fight that is longer than 6 minutes. How many fights are 6m+ in T11? Remind me again? Yeah. And we can carry a whole 25 man raid with 5 competent people. So you do understand Cata comes with personal responsibility, like Omnotron (interrupting, not standing in stuff), like Sinestra (moving from slicers), like Council (kitting the glaciate orb, etc). This is stuff you cannot force. If one of those 20 people edited by moderator, you might wipe. And now you would say “but how is that different to 10 man?”. Well guess what. They’ve balanced it so it’s actually different. In 10 man most of those mechanics will not wipe you or even kill a player. Arcanotron doesnt one shot if an interrupt is missed. Even flamethrower doesnt one shot Nef? You can solo P2 interrupts with single person per platform. You can solo tank the adds in last phase. Chimaeron? The boss barely slaps, compared to 25. So all those figths you think 25 man has advantage on, well they dont. Not to mention bosses in 10 man literally die twice faster. Quickest 10m Chimaeron is 1m faster than 25. Quickest twin dragons is 1m faster. Quickest Alakir is 1m 30 faster. Some bosses on 10 man are literally a joke. Can be done by anyone week 1. That is not the case on 25.
Here is what you are missing. No one here is saying “10 man should drop less”. I dont get how do you not understand that no one is saying you should be edited by moderator over 25. People are saying it doesnt make sense to have 4 staffs done in 12 weeks in 10 man and 4 staffs done in 12 weeks in 25 man. It just doesnt make sense. No one is saying 10 man should be nerfed, but rather 25 man should be buffed. Currently it makes 0 sense to run 25 man over 10 man.
So why should your guild go into DS with all of your casters with the staff? And then why should mine be missing 20-40% of its staffs? Why should i go back to Firelands and farm the staff for the last 2-4 people and you should just enjoy your DS runs? If this doesn’t tell you why 25 man raids will turn into 2 x 10 or 3 x 10 splits, i guess you don’t understand what the issue is here. No one has an issue with your guild getting 4 staffs over a phase. The issue is that 25 man guilds will not have your luck. They will barely get 6-8 staffs (if lucky).
I haven’t? I’ve been doing 25 runs with so many pugs, gdkps and even semi guild runs just not with my druid cause blizz made feral a shtty class. About GDKPS: When most players were raid logging GDKPs were the only groups who ran the raids almost everyday. They actually made the game lively and made people with so many alts don’t quit. About 25 raids: I didn’t mean 5 people can carry a 25 man raid I meant you have space to carry 5 people in a 25 raid it means if 5 players don’t even show up the raid is gonna happen. In the fights you mentioned sure mechanics can one shot people but how hard are they? I don’t consider interrupting and moving out of stuff is being competent. If shtty GDKPs with 0 language skills and without discord can handle managing a 25, how can the raid leaders in okish 25 guilds won’t be able to? 10 man raids as I mentioned there is always a dps check and the pressure is more both on healers and dps and attendance is crucial. in 25 the pressure is less and you can slack more. Dps can slack and still be able to do the fight. About 6 min fihts: I can name some: Al’akir, Magmaw (close to 6), Maloriak, Nef, T&V (close to 6), Cho’gall, Sinestra. Who said bosses die twice as fast in 10? at most there is 1-max 2 min. If we are talking about week 1 both 10 and 25 have challenges to do the end bosses. You ignored the part where I said which version is more popular among the community and it’s obviously 25. It’s simple: more loot, more buffs, less pressure, lesser need of long term attendance, more pug friendly, more gold for gdkps. Managing a 25 man for sure is harder but we are talking about which one you prefer to raid as a raider.
I am not saying 25 should not change I said whatever blizzard do some people are gonna point out their unhappiness. Give 25 raids 8 staves: Someone in comment section: Why should GDKPs sell 8 staves in 3 months for each of their many characters?
Usual 10man raid: 6dps (2tanks, 2heals) = 60%
Usual 25man raid: 18dps (2tanks, 5heals) = 72%
Average staffs 10man raid: 3,75
Average staffs 25man raid: 5
Average chance for an average 10man player for staff: 37,5% [3,75 / 10]
Average chance for an average 25man player for staff: 20% [5 / 25]
Average chance for an average 10man dps for staff: 62,5% [37,5% / 60%]
Average chance for an average 25man dps for staff: 27,8% [20% / 72%]
An average 10man dps player will have a 125% higher chance (225% more likely) to aquire the legendary staff compared to an average 25man dps player.
What is the reasoning behind such a big difference to the acquisition rate?
Completely and utterly stupid decision, is there no one at blizzard with a basic grasp on Mathematics? At this point just make the items personal loot and let everyone do it at the same time. What on earth is the point of pre nerf content if teams are just going to be equipped with more staffs than world first Spine of Deathwing ever had way before DS even launches.
25 man players need to start making noise, as apparently the Tyranny of the vocal minority is what determines whether a change happens or not.
I’m willing to step down in the conversation since I’m not that into the subject in the first place, unwillingly being in a 10 man team, and being a healer and probably the last one on the prio list for the staff anyway. I just think it will be difficult to balance this in such a way that makes neither favourable.
Have to say though, isn’t this a perfect description of every single WoW classic player? That’d make him no different than you, me or anyone else playing this game.
Quite a dumb change guys. Seriously 10M doesn’t need any incentive…it’s the more popular raid size already even in T11…for obvious reasons…
You guys really need to stop letting people cyberbully you into hasty decisions so easily. Be it progressive Classic or SoD it’s always the same here. There is indeed a thing as listening too much to whiny reddit and the “Cata should’ve been Wrath Era” forums.
Make it that everyone whos interested in can get individual drops and work on it by themselves. I realy dont have 2mil gold to run gdkps. Please for the love of god.
I can bet money on it. They are following a schedule which they already said will extend. Meaning they cant extend it any longer. Any further delays and extending Cata further will 100% fail any future classic expansion (MoP).
From the fights you said that could last 6+ minutes, none of those fights should last you 6 + minutes in current gear, other than Nef. I am sorry, but if you are spending more than 4 minutes on Magmaw, you are doing something wrong. Also DPS checks in 10 man? You literally have 6 DPS compared to 18 DPS in 25 man. The mechanics and Bosses’s HP are balanced so the difficulty should be the same, yet some fights 10 man kills are half as quick and you see no problem with that??? You gotta be kidding me. But whatever, feel free to think what you think. Btw i do literally 6 x 25 raids every week, for more than 2 years now. Done multiple 10s too back in Wrath when we could do both 10 and 25. I’ve seen both perspectives, i know what i am talking about. I also tank and DPS, heal when i have to with my OS. I know every aspect of this game.
Who cares about GDKPs? Do you understand that currently a 25 raid guild would have to spend the whole phase + X weeks in Phase 4 to get all their staffs? While 10 man guilds will be giving staffs to their healers before Phase 4 even comes. How are you guys not understanding that this is a huge issue. It doesnt even benefit anyone? How does it benefit you? How does it benefit any 10 man guilds? They were getting 3 staffs regardless, now they are getting 4-6 staffs and they need 2-4 staffs. So this change literally is pointless. It only benefits guilds that rather split a 25 raid to 2 or 3 x 10s and get everyone a staff. Well guess what, we’d rather not have to run 15 x 10s a week, but we might as well at this point. It’s just as stupid as that.
Nef? You can solo P2 interrupts with single person per platform. You can solo tank the adds in last phase. Chimaeron? The boss barely slaps, compared to 25. So all those figths you think 25 man has advantage on, well they dont. Not to mention bosses in 10 man literally die twice faster. Quickest 10m Chimaeron is 1m faster than 25. Quickest twin dragons is 1m faster. Quickest Alakir is 1m 30 faster. Some bosses on 10 man are literally a joke. Can be done by anyone week 1. That is not the case on 25.
That’d make him no different than you, me or anyone else playing this game.