Fated Season 4 is the new standard

As we know by now, we’re not going to get a fourth raid in Dragonflight, making Dragonflight the expansion with the fewest raid bosses, ever.

We’re going to get 25 raid bosses in total, over a span of 24 months.

This is 5 less than Warlords of Draenor, an expansion well known for its content drought and widely disliked because it had too little content.

This is 6 less than Shadowlands, an expansion widely understood to be a failure because of inabilities to listen to incredibly early feedback on how covenants are flawed, as well as Covid happening.

I personally enjoy raiding the most in WoW. It’s my favorite content. Sure I dabble in m+, I’ve dabbled in PvP and I’ve generally played a lot of WoW over the past 10-15 years. But after the dust has settled, my favorite thing to do is to raid and to progress raids.

Now we get a second expansion of Fated content, showcasing that Blizzard believes that players are either okay with or want to have a Fated season 4, rather than a fourth raid.

I personally am not okay with it. I feel let down by something that up until this point I believed to be a fair bit better than Shadowlands.

I still believe Dragonflight is in many ways better than Shadowlands, but in the way that matters the most to me, in raiding, it’s the same, arguably even worse because it sets a new standard, a new standard that is also the lowest low there’s ever been.

Fated is not new content. Reprogressing 6 and 12 month old raids respectively is not something I enjoy more than learning new encounters and raiding a new raid.

Fated is the lowest effort that’s ever been put into creating 6 months of content for World of Warcraft.

And we’re gonna get more of it.

The last time we’ve got Fated as an alternative to a fourth raid was when Covid-19 was happening and nearly every company in the world was struggling to restructure towards working from home. Whether that’s a good argument for cutting content is another debate, but personally I’d buy that argument.

What’s the argument this time? Why are we receiving less content for Dragonflight?

Has Dragonflight been a commercial failure and we need to get out of it ASAP?
Has feedback for Dragonflight been overwhelmingly negative?

What about the next expansion, that casually comes bundled with guaranteed beta access if you pay an extra 80%?
Are we gonna get 3 raids and no Fated Season, all while paying more than for past expansions?
Are we gonna get 3 raids and a Fated Season, all while paying more than for past expansions?

At this point, I’d like to know what I’m getting for my money.

If we look at a simple value for raids and bosses, compare Dragonflight to Cataclysm Classic, another expansion often considered a failure, where I get 6 different raids with a total of 31 bosses, over 20% more bosses and double the raids than in Dragonflight, all while not even having to buy a new expansion every 2 years, but solely spend 240€ for 24 months of subscription, which is 20-30% cheaper than Dragonflight, since again, I do not have to purchase the expansion to play it.

And don’t get me wrong, this isn’t a call for you guys at Blizzard to now sell access to Cataclysm Classic for the same price that you’re selling access to new retail expansions, it’s a simple price comparison from me as a customer.

I enjoy being an informed customer and making informed decisions.

The lack of communication, e.g. the fact that it only became clear roughly 6 months before the Fated Season 4 that there was going to be no fourth raid, but rather a Fated Season 4 has prevented me from making an informed decision on whether or not to spend my money on Dragonflight.

Now I’d personally love to know, before spending 50, 70 or 90 bucks on the next expansion, are we gonna get the same treatment again?

Are we gonna get 12 months of the same content, three expansions in a row?

Are we gonna get 18 month expansions with only 3 seasons and no Fated Season to begin with?

I’d spend 90 bucks on The War Within, if instead of the “guaranteed 3 days of early access” I’d get “guaranteed 4 different raids during this expansion”.

Hell I’d take a Ruby Sanctum, Vault of Archavon, Baradin Hold, Throne of the Four Winds, Crucible of Storms, or any similar 1-3 boss raid over a Fated Season, simply because I’ve not seen nor progressed these bosses before and new raidbosses are always more fun than recycled stuff.

For that very same reason I play retail over classic, because I enjoy new things more than things I’ve already done in the past, even if that past is 10 years ago, but especially if that past is 6-12 months ago.

I’d personally hate to see Fated become the new standard, arbitrarily increasing our dps numbers through silly gimmick mechanics that aren’t real mechanics isn’t new content.

Cycling through old m+ dungeons, most likely all Dragonflight dungeons that have been around in the past is equally nothing new, it’s again things we’ve already done in the past.

I’d love to be an informed customer making informed decisions, but with the lack of clarity on the subject on what we’re getting for our 50, 70, 90 bucks, during the span of 12?, 18?, 24?, given the statement that “expansions are going to get released more quickly”, months, it’s basically impossible to become an informed customer.

I don’t want more Fated Content, I understand many people liked it because it enabled them to do content they never had the chance to do because of whatever reason, but as an active player who participates in the most recent content, I’d much rather get more recent content, compared to old content. And I’d much rather know if I’m buying access to 3 raids over 24 months, 3 raids over 18 months, or any other option, when purchasing The War Within.

I’m not happy about the decision to have a Fated Season 4, which ultimately is the third time in WoW history that we’ve had 12 months of raid content drought, but what matters more to me is whether this is going to be the new standard, whether 18 month expansions are going to be the new standard, or what the general idea behind giving us less for more money is.

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I’m not a fan of fated raids either but I don’t like your reasoning.

First off, you’re equating quantity of bosses with quality.

Then you’re saying its less than shadowlands which is especially bad because … covenants!

Just unsub for the fated season, if you let it influence your decision to purchase the expac, well, thats your choice but I find it a little baffling.

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I am totally ok with it and wish every season was like it.
SL season 4 was the most fun i had in WoW for many years.

Content cycles every week and doesn’t get stale and that dinar system is the best as i don’t have to run the same dungeon or raid over and over again to hope the slot machine finally decides to end my misery.

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Well no, I’m not, I’m just using it as a metric, given how there’s no deterministic metric on quality of raids. Firelands was incredibly high quality, same as Dragonsoul, Baradin Hold not so much. I’d much rather use any metric than none.

I don’t understand what you’re trying to say here, sorry.

Is what I said in comparison to Shadowlands. Covenants and the Renown grind were awful things which Dragonflight has done much better. Raids is something that Shadowlands has done better, given the metric that is available to us, although Sanctum of Domination was arguably one of the worst raids I’ve played, especially for Mythic Progress. Then again, Sarkareth was probably the worst raid boss for World 500-1500 guilds since Kil’jaeden.

I don’t understand what Covenants have to do with this, other than making Shadowlands worse, which is exactly what I’ve said?

That’s the issue I’m having. I can’t. I don’t know whether Fated is the new standard or not. I don’t know if The War Within will have recycled Fated content once again or not.
I don’t know if The War Within will only have 3 raids in total and last only 18 months.

I’d love to know and let it influence my decision to buy the latest expansion, but I can’t.

I am not and I don’t. I’m glad you’ve shared your opinion but the excessiveness of that statement makes me believe that it’s not a very well thought through opinion, but rather an impulse reaction to somebody saying they dislike something that you like.

If every season was a Fated season, it’d mean there’d be no new raids, ever again.

Agree to disagree there. The older content, Raszageth and Sarkareth in this case, won’t get stale as quickly, but especially Amirdrassil will get incredibly stale, incredibly quickly for me. The other content also will, just not quite as quickly, mostly because I enjoyed the Raszageth bossfight a fair bit.

I agree, the Dinar system is very good, it is however not necessarily bound to a Fated season. We could easily have a Dinar system during regular seasons if Ion didn’t think it was too powerful.

Honestly, imo WoW should tune it down with the raid bosses. Instead of chugging them out like candy, they should make gradually less ones, increase drop rates of loot (basically making raid bosses loot piniatas) and make them more memorable.

So far no boss really left a big impression on me unless there was major difficulty fighting them.

Last I fought and remember was Dathea with her “crushing gust!” voice line. Other than that, pretty forgettable.

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I’d be down for that as well.

More epic, memorable boss fights would’ve been just as fine.

What we’re getting is less bossfights against characters nobody has ever seen or heard of before and nobody will remember in a few years.

The most memorable bossfight of the recent past for me was Sylvanas, mostly because it was Sylvanas, a well known character, and partly because it was a terrible bossfight that lagged worse than wotlk classic Dalaran.

Whether quality or quanitity of bossfights was increased, rather than decreased, I don’t really care, I’d be fine with either one, but alas, both were decreased.

yes we need clarity. i don’t want 4 seasons if they will only release 8 new dungeons every expansion tbh. just do it 3 seasons with 8 new dungeons. i think 18 months is the sweet spot . yes it’s expensive etc. but also if you think about it you’ll stay subbed for 12 months from now to fall 2024 without new content…

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I’d buy The War Within if it was 18 months, 3 raids and a similar amount of dungeons.

I wouldn’t if it was 24 months, 3 raids, a similar amount of dungeons and a Fated Season 4.

But I can’t really make that decision, because there’s no statements about these things.

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I’m gonna put on my tinfoil hat and say it’s easier and cheaper to design generic bosses with generic soak/dodge zones than unique and interesting fights that might end up undertuned for the eSports department.

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Oh, I didn’t mean mechanic wise. I meant the bosses actually having personality.

I remember nothing really of any “major lore boss” in WoW. But I remember literally the entire, iconic intro speech of Rhulk and Nezarec from Destiny 2.

Probably because those bosses were designed to be the final raid boss, the big mofo that you have to kill as goal.

I think the most iconic line of any raid boss I read about in WoW is Ragnaros “Die, Insect!” one.

Also, shorter raids would be better for WoW imo so it is more in line with the time investment of M+. And they could easily split 8-9 raid bosses into 2-3 smaller raids in a single patch.

You can play cataclysm classic during season 4. Otherwise… I thought about it, and I’m okay with a season 4, if they bring new content constantly like new quest lines, etc. every few weeks or new class reworks, and if season 4 has a new good dungeon pool.

Yup, I could also not pay Blizzard during that time.

The thing is, I’d much rather pay Blizzard money to have a new raid during that time.

I’d also much rather play new content, than old content.

Of course you can do different things, but this is unconstructive thinking. If the dev team of a video game such as World of Warcraft makes decisions such as making Fated Season 4 the new standard, I’d much rather voice my complaint in the hopes of having the people making decisions seeing these complaints and reacting to them.

That’s a lot of "if"s my friend, I doubt we’ll get any of these things, other than perhaps a few class reworks, but none of it is gonna happen every few weeks. Which comes down to my initial issue of us having too little information to make informed decisions as customers.

But yes, “if” season 4 creates the perfect class and spec balance, with dungeons that are incredibly fun and new, I’d be okay with it, but the people designing dungeons aren’t the people designing raids and the people working on class balance aren’t the people designing raids either, so I don’t understand why this would be a choice that we have to make to have one or the other, rather than having both, or all three in this case.

And there are other people, who will pay and play for season 4. I will be looking forward to Blizzard having time now to put way more lore, heritage quest lines, Class Reworks (for PvP), etc. in the game during s4. They said they will do that in an interview. I’m cool with that. Sure, if blizzard just goes AFK during S4, then I think it’s problematic, but otherwise… I’m gonna have fun for a bit I believe, and people skipping one tier of these 3 aswell. Also, do we really just need a new raid for the sake of having a new raid?

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Do you mind sharing that interview, or a summary of it with me? There’s been quite a bit regarding Blizzcon and I did not care to watch or follow all of it. I don’t believe we’re gonna get “way more lore, heritage quest lines, Class Reworks, etc” during s4, but if there’s an official statement that was made during an interview, it’s worth at least slightly more than speculation.

even if Blizzard is well known for lying while smiling for the camera, looking at Ion and his “covenant ripcord” here

As I’ve said, my favorite content is raiding. I’d like having a new raid, for the sake of having a new raid, I care very little about lore since quite some time, heritage quest lines especially atrocious heritage armor sets such as the Goblin one, or PvP.

So while clearly not everybody needs or wants more raiding experiences, it’s what matters most to me, just like how to others PvP balance matters most, as well as others who care mostly about the m+ dungeon pool.

Believing one is more important than the other is silly and as far as I know, there’s quite a few different teams working on these different things, so again I don’t understand where the mindset of mutual exclusivity comes from.

That typical end of an expansion, everyone expects that last tier to take eight months to a year. Anne Stickney: Yeah, speaking of which, 10.2 is not the last patch of Dragonflight. We have so much more story to tell and you guys don’t even know. Oh my god, I can’t wait for you to see it.
Wowhead’s Exclusive Blizzcon 2023 Interview with Anne Stickney & Tina Wang - Wowhead News

It’s only the last raid tier. I expect them to still make a lot of content. Holly has said that they will try to keep doing bigger new content patches every 8 weeks for the whole duration.

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Thanks for sharing!

I feel like that statement is very ambiguous and doesn’t mention anything other than more lore to come in 10.2.5, so I don’t really see where the class reworks and similar come from.

As I’ve said, I don’t understand why getting new lore must also mean we can’t have a fourth raid as well.

Also the “try” makes me really doubt that statement. Ion has said if one spec plays all one covenant, they’ll “pull the ripcord”, yet 99% of balance druids playing first Night Fae, then Venthyr during s2, did not make them “pull the ripcord”

Trying doesn’t mean anything, I’d rather think results oriented.

they just give us the opportunity to quit the game again with this lazy practice. Maybe move to classic+ which looked promising.

Fated was ok in sl because the abandoned the expansion and covid excuses. But not for future patches! Df raids were one of the worst. we all did it multiple times in lfr or up to mythic. GOOD LUCK to all guild leaders keep their players active :rofl:

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A certain raid called ruby sanctum added back in wotlk after icc which was heavily criticized back in the day for being added without any reason whatsover… would like to have a word with you.

This is my thought process as well. Shadowlands has had excuses and most people were okay with it, even though I already would’ve rather had a .3 patch back then, mostly because .3 patches usually fix most if not all of the expansions problems, Fated made them worse with Gavel.

Halion was an incredibly cool bossfight. I really enjoyed it.

Also I’d estimate that a new raid for the sake of having a new raid would fall more in line with Crucible of Storms than with Ruby Sanctum on the difficulty level, which would mean far more time spent in the raid, but that’s obviously just my estimation with nothing to back it up whatsoever, other than my beliefs.

Obviously this is just my opinion, but cataclysm was also heavily criticized for numerous reasons, yet they’re releasing cataclysm classic anyway.

Things that were failures back in the day can easily be improved upon and be made successful. The fact that they’re selling character boosts for 80€ now for wotlk, incredibly successfully I might add, is proof of that.

We never got fated as an alternative to a 4th raid tier. We got fated as an alternative to a 9-12 months long last patch. Which also was the brainchild of a few developers.

Also, if you view it from a customer PoV:
Season 3 of SL released 1st of march 2022.
DF released 28 of Nov 2022.
That’s 272 days.

That is FASTER than last patch of BFA, Legion, Wod, Mop, Cata, and WotLK.

So yeah, you never traded a raid for fated. You traded 4-5 months of the same raid for fated, which in my books is an improvement.

Sorry but that is just plain wrong. There is NO WAY to compare raiding during SL with raiding during DF.
During SL in the first 2 raids you could not even swap covenant, you were forced to farm renown/domination gems, and generally was one of the worst times to raid.
On DF you can just leisurely raid, without worrying about convoluted systems.

But I agree that the first round of fated content left a lot to be desired.

I would wish that we did not have the raids in a weekly rotation, did not have so recent raids, or did not have some affixes that made the fights so weird.

Generally I would like to see what it could be like to have a fated season with an old raid brought back to recent standards, let’s say firelands.