I think people have the idea that the general player is better today and it probably is true since people have more addons like you say. However, when you actually Q the game now, it’s not like you are losing to these players anyway. It’s just that winning is more aids than before due to PVE dmg being so strong and outplays being so limited. You never get the relaxed feeling you used to have playing when it’s like this, that’s what I’m trying to say I guess
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Yes , but all the above you just mentioned is about getting green or epic gear and true it s very easy to get it . But he is talking about sockets. And your solution for this is also to grind honor by doing various pvp activities, for example epic bgs, or world pvp, when one may want to play only arena or SS and not grind honor the ways you mention. You even mentioned Ashran, I havent set my foot there for years. All this is exhausting grinding if you really want to have those 5-6 socket gems.
So, we must admit honor for sockets is too expensive.
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We are crying about lil socket upgrade? Holding back, cant play without them?
Season is very long if cant gear up main, I dunno, have to give up wow then.
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112.k honor or 56 k honor and 60k gold ( at current prices) .
which is around 150 victories , or 400 losses , probably worth between 250 and 500 hours played .
Completely fair ,
when you compare it to the PVE socket which is worth :
6k gold + 3 heroic dungeons , 6 10 minute world quests , and 6 lfr bosses .
which is more like 10 hours played .
Sounds reasonable .
And on the topic of mele and pressure , yea . I’ve been saying this for ages , but we don’t talk about that here , because the 30 remaining people who play this game on PvP mode all main mele or hunters , and they get a seizure , the moment they are not 120% connecting with their target .
I personally stopped kiting somewhere BFA or Shadowlands , because it was pointless .
I remember getting rolled over by the Warrior charge , because blizzard in their mighty wisdom thought it was a good idea to give a gap closer More damage than a freaking Main dps ability .
So I stopped running and started turetting, because I actually took less damage like that . And you know what ? Warriors started using their heroic leap to move away from me , so they can charge me …
That’s the level of (oh look the world for ultra stupid is blocked by the forum regulations) this game has reached .
Sitting in 50% dampening and no one dies but healing is fine , because battlegrounds brooooo…
Putting damping in battlegrounds too , cause healers don’t die , but healing is still fine .
Not being able to play skirmishes with anything but mele , or a pocket healer , but mele are fine .
Casters not casting at all whole game , just jumping around swaping you with instant damage and infinite resources .
Mages having 1000 resets and roots , because , they are not tanky enough broooo , so we will give them more heling than warlocks , to make them more tanky , but yeaaaa , I totally forgot about the first part of the sentence already .
Don’t bother . PvP is clown show at this point . Let this forum die and leave the 30 people here to talk about uber mega broken stuff like shadowmeld , meanwhile hunters just 1 tapping people in 2 (3 ?) seasons in a row , , but it’s fine brooo because even more broken mele one tap them in return , so that is fine .
What a joke .
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full sockets equates to like 2-3% stat / dmg / healing bonus overall
i dont even have it yet on most chars cause i dont care enough
replace “caster” with warlock and moonkin
mages make fun of melees
hunters do as well
and elemental shamans destroy most melees
in a lot of seasons shadow priest is also chilling tanking melees
i just think warriors are too annoying for warlocks and sp
and mages are too broken vs all melees except feral
healing has never been fun in pvp
healing is directly tied to who u are healing
u heal bad dps = he dies
ur bad at healing = people die
only in 2v2
yes if ur “mate” takes dmg nonstop then u gotta heal nonstop =)
ew no last thing we need are 15 minute arenas nonstop
u cant put these 2 words together
the only time “fun” combines with “competitive” is when people are playing overpowered specs and winning easily when they’re not supposed to
what is grindy exactly im getting new chars fully geared within a few hours, sockets are not required to win games
im not saying pvp is good right now
but a great majority of the bad experience comes from people playing solo shuffle and realizing playing with randoms u dont know and dont trust results in a bad experience
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How are you a new player and cant make 3 wins in shuffle ?
Dude your whole sentiment - i get it, but its just not a real problem.
Its like americans complaining about burger quality in a forum about world hunger.
I can jump in arenas 2 hours after leveling 80, you can get the gear that fast.
No, we dont need to.
I thought we were talking abotu MMOs ?
Also Marvel Rivals didnt and wont last as long as WoW does/did.
Idk why you compare MOBA to MMO but thats all i gotta tell you.
We are not getting new players because of premades mostly.
Because thats where new players reside in → battlegrounds.
We are not getting new players because the game bombards you with overstimuly.
And Addons. Addons are a very good discussion to have when it comes to newbie player dissatisfaction.
TLDR → fast leveling & fast getting of abilities and talents = spoiled players with no knowledge and no integrity = overwhelmed at max level = quit game.
Because i dont think you realise just how bad a new player would be the people you see losing at 1700 even have played wow for years im talking about a straight up brand new player the chances of them going 3-3 in shuffle enough to cap is just asking for too much especially if they play a caster.
the PVP minigame is not an MMO its instance based pvp it either has battlegrounds or arena this is the rated content we are talking about not world pvp 3v3 arena is closer to a moba than it is to doing a raid or open world content.
keep telling yourself that a new player wont even know what a premade is never mind be able to recognise when they are facing one they would think an average wow player is a premade if they have no game sense to see what is actually happening.
its not about it lasting as long as wow did its about the game is a full PVP game and has much more players than this game does that its instant queues you cant take the playerbase of wow as a whole when talking about wow pvp look at the stats on check pvp there is around 35k people playing shuffle on EU over 1800 which is starting mmr that includes alts and people from pve who got the elite set and never touched it again.
Vs other games that have 200k-400k people playing right now because the casual community is a lot bigger and easier to get into than wow.
It was proven in shadowlands when people had time on their hands to gear during covid and people had to stay at home just look at how big the playerbase was ye classic played a role in killing retail off but a lot of people would come back if they could just log on and play and not have to grind stuff.
Dude youre talking so much nonsense i actually have to get up from the chair to do some deep breaths.
Lmfao.
should try it more often when you are farming 20k honor in a day also take yourself for a little walk as it seems you want new players to farm their conquest gear in random battlegrounds 
you can be elitist all you want this mentality is only hurting your own enjoyment.
People don’t understand that being elitist is just going to kill PvP before the next expansion drop.
And the problem isn’t just the gem sockets, but of course, most people only read half my post.
They better not come back complaining when PvP is completely dead in this game.
They keep comparing it to past expansions without realizing the gaming industry has changed, and so have player expectations.
PvP needs to be more accessible to new players and actually make them want to stick around.
I think Legion did a great job in that regard, PvP was very accessible for news players. Probably followed by WoD and MoP after that. That my personnal tought so.
Yeah it takes a long time to get sockets but at the same time its nice to finally have a good way to passively make an OK amount of gold as a pvper
This is true. Building your character optimally for many different niche situations should be one of the main skillcaps in an mmo. A legion system where you had a slider for all your stats would be a good middleground imo.
You would sit more cc with longer chains in mop/cata. I think the cc durations being so short and having cancer like proc root makes it feel worse overall.
The meta is already extremely slow. Yes its true people have strong burst damage right now but people also have really strong defensive cooldowns and peels(sanc/intervene/grounding/disarm/rescue/timestop etc) and healer cooldowns such as giga tree/guardian/blessing of sac are garunteed saves 90% of the time.
Slowing the game down even more would make it go from 50% of games being mana contests to 90%.
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That would be great. People should be able to play PvP immediately but at least have some kind of control over their stats - but ultimately, the vast majority play what’s ‘best’ anyway.
Yeah I think the important distinction is meaningful CC. I would rather face 15 seconds of CC from 3 different abilities that are looking to set up a kill than 10 seconds of CC from 5 different abilities where they’re just buttons that are nothing but nuisances
I rather have the game have a better feeling of natural progression in both skill and itemization than to have honor farm be skipped.
Why?
Because Gems can be sold, and as of right now is a pretty good source of Gold.
Giving Gems for free would kill one of the few and most profitable way to do gold as a PvPer.
If we look at it in terms of time- you will need to put even more time, farming herbs and ores just so you can affort crafting items and enchants.
As for right now skipping on 2-3 % stat boost from Gems is totally alright if that would mean you would get your crafted bonuses and enchants which equate far more if we put them on the scale.
This is the only expansion where I am not struggling in terms of gold as a PvPer.
And new commers need the practice that comes with honor farm either way, so
we are creating more problems than we are solving.
And in general newbies complains are:
-Addons, Macros & Button-Bloat.
-Complex mechanics and too much to track.
-Premades ruining entry level PvP.
-The systems uppon systems issue.
-Elitism is something i intentionally dont mention since most of the PvP you can Solo, but if Premades continue to be a thing, they will become mandatory and if thats the case, premades will start to require higher skill and item level, meaning newbies will be totally be abondoned even in casual battlegrounds. So elitism is not a current problem but it will become one in the future, according to my predictions.
We saw an example of that in classic wow.
Where am i elitist, brother?
Yep, I would like too test the game with 2dr max not 3,
sheep into sheep into sheep 
is such annoying, not sure if this is the fix for CC but maybe worth a try
So far only CC duration and how much a specc have got tuned never the amounts of Dr bevor being immune
2% dmg is such a huge problem?
It was decent but sadly they drop 50% now, I stopped selling. The price took too deep dive.
I’m not gonna argue with so blinded people like you.
I didn’t point out only gems socket as a problem. If you can’t see what wrong on the game actually, I don’t know what to tell you.
And yes, Farming so much honor for this gems socket is wrong. We should not have to farm that much for be BiS in PVP.
PVP should be about skill only, and not for people who have time to farm 112k honor in full premade group.
idk so far 60% of your comments are related to sockets
bis in pvp means nothing for the last 2 expansions unless there is some OP PvE item around (which rarely happens)
u get in there, play a few hours, get full conquest, ur character is completely competitive against anything afterwards
theres literally people doing 2.4 challenges in shuffle with green gear
so no the gear issue does not exist
the real problem of the game is poor rated system and lfg + slow tuning on feedback
people are literally only having fun when their specs are fotm overpowered and thats a big problem
ranks are not rewarding anymore the only thing that used to feel rewarding was the glad mount and now even that is ugly as hell and not worth the effort
1800 transmogs are ugly for 3 seasons in a row as well
im a dh im blind by default
but i also play on all ratings and both dps and healer i understand the actual problems of the game
i already gave my suggestions how to fix the game and got no response anywhere
so i just go to the 2nd part and create threads about broken specs because they are in 95% of all my matches either being immortal or killing people in 1 second or both
Why?
Because you play MOBA’s and for some reason you think you can compare them to MMORPG’s?
Hell even MOBA’s are partly about leveling and getting items, g.
We saw how much it is about skill, once rewards moved away from 3v3.
People just want fun engaging content, thats pretty much.
Also werent you using the perspective of newbies ?
You’re constantly contradicting yourself dude, but ok - heres the deal, you come in as a newbie, you farm a bunch of honor, and by the time you done, it will naturally give you the knowledge about how to fight against different classes and specs positioning you above being just a newb.
How about that ?
And if were about skill- i swear to god, i ve never seen a skilled player yap about gear.
Just stop it:
The moment you level up 80, you’re given x3 high end gear once you win a single BG (from the 9x crafting tokens), 3x quests in Dornagal which give 500+ honor + 200+ conquest each and 1 that also gives 500 bloody tokens, the bloody tokens one is literally a PVE quest that gives you high end PvP gear which you can complete by looting treasures. Each day theres a Bloody Tokens world quest that gives between 100 to 550 tokens. So far you got 5x items for just existing at level 80.
On top of that each Epic BG that you join gives you a 1 000 honor/ 250 conquest quest you can complete by doing close to nothing.
Brawl also gives you a quest that gives 350 honor + 100 ~ ish conquest.
Theres a Cache drop that happens every few minutes in Warmode zones of TWW and Dragonflight, that theres no chance you dont get a few of them while waiting for que.
By the time you make a single win from each bracket- its gonna cost you roughtly, 2-3 hours will result in you having 4/5 set bonus (2 from bloody tokens and 2 from conquest)
2 rings, 1 necklace (from Crafting tokens that are given for you for free after your first battleground win), which will also grant you the powerful crafting enchant.
So far you got 8/14 items BIS items.
On top of that you can just AFK and wait for cache drops while cleaning the house or studying as I do.
Those give you Bloody Token , Conquest and Honor.
So you can buy bis Cloak, Belt and Wrist Guards without much effort from Bloody Tokens.
So far we’re at 11/14 items.
By the time you earn 1650 conquest points you gain an achievement which gives you a FREE WEAPON.
So all you have left to buy is just trinkets.
All of those activities have chances to give you gems too.
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I brought up three points in my post, and only one of them was about sockets, that’s 33%, by the way. But I don’t blame you, you play DH. I wouldn’t expect math to be your strong suit.
Not my fault people read only my first point and point out only that in the comments.
It’s ok, we don’t have to argue anymore, 1 week reading this forum and my expectation for this game is to high compared to the current player base.
I guess I’m just gonna wait for MoP classic to release and let you having fun on this current clown fiesta.
It seem people like this current zog zog meta, they don’t want healer to be part of the game anymore and they want to keep this long and boring socket grind so they can stack in full premade bg to make gold with selling their gems on AH.
My suggestion was just to make this game more friendly for new or returning player. And make this game more enjoyable for caster and healer.
I wasn’t crying about the gems socket grind, I just mentionned them to point out that they’re part of what’s wrong on this game, along with many other things I mentionned above.