How is grevious “fine”? its still one of the most broken affixes, combine it with fortified, or tyrannical and the dmg can get overwhelming very fast. If u dont trust me, this week is grevious and fortified, just do a higher key and see what it does to tank. a +17 feels like +20 atm and all that cus of bad metric affix combos like grevious and fortified. Plz give proper and correct feedback so tuning can go in RIGHT direction
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I have not had any big issues with it this week, running a +19 in time was not an issue, it’s all about how you deal with Grievous. I assume your group did not deal with it the same way mine did.
i hate fact that rogues have so huge role in Battle of azeroth dungeons because shroud of course its not the only thing they are pickked.
you literally need shroud in allmsot every dungeon in high keys and it gives u huge advantage, i wish all classes had somekind ability that would give them huge advantage in mythic dungeons. Dont get me wrong i do love rogues & Shroud.
Not able to delete keys was a mistake imo since now people look for good keys for hours and hours and hope they get pickked if they arent top tier meta classes. Less people are doing keys since they dont have a good key & they cant just go to any key to alter it in the pug life . please bring it back <3
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Aren’t you quitting?
Healer main here running 15s-17s.
Nerfs to grievous are welcomed but I still think it should behave like necrotic and drop out of combat.
Teeming should never be paired with fortified, and I’d be tempted to say the fortified/tyrannical cycle should include teeming so that week 1 is fortified, week 2 is tyrannical, week 3 is teeming; that would add some variety.
Everyone is commenting that Rogues are too mandatory and the obvious answer to this is make it so invis pots don’t share cooldown with dps or other pots; why this is the case is baffling when altering it would not only be a huge QoL improvement but also do a lot of work in making Rogues not 100% required.
Some dungeons are still very buggy with ninja pulls happening through walls and ceilings with almost no counterplay; Waycrest and Tol Dagor are the biggest offenders, simply do something with the walls so they don’t aggro mobs on the other side because this happens far too frequently to just be a one off glitch.
Some specific dungeon feedback:
Atal’dazar:
Trash is mostly fine, though if you want people to play left side, the colossi need to be nerfed. The pack before Volkaal is universally skipped, honor guards are probably among the least fun mobs in the game to fight.
Bosses are fine, though encounters like Yazma, Rezan, and Volkaal highlight a very “anti-fun” design ethos for casters who have to hard cast. That’s just a nature of playing ranged I suppose. Yazma’s health on tyrannical could probably be scaled down some.
Freehold:
Trash in here is fine, one of the better dungeons for variable routes which makes it interesting.
The first boss needs a little more telegraphing with the powder shot, currently even on 15s and 16s tyrannical if someone is unlucky and gets shot at the same time as the bird drops poop on them, it’s instant unavoidable death. A longer cast would at least allow defensives to be popped. Alternately, make the bird telegraph where it is going to drop stuff so you can move, like almost every other ground effect in the game, e.g King’s Rest blobs, Viq’goth’s call of the deep, and so on.
Eudora is a bit crazy on tyrannical - her powder shot RNG needs some bad luck protection added to prevent the same person being targetted repeatedly.
King’s Rest:
Spit gold and severing axe are both absurdly over tuned. Nerf the damage of spit gold and nerf the duration of severing axe, there’s absolutely no need for an unavoidable DoT to be ticking for 70% of someone’s health per round.
Adding extra brutes on teeming feels very punishing and makes the popular bridge skips dangerous when kiting is required. This indicates a bigger problem with the dungeon though, namely that without invis skips the linear route forces you to clear more than 100% trash: this is not fun or fair.
Shrine of the Storm:
The droplets should absolutely not give bolstering/bursting/sanguine or interact with affixes at all. The eels at the end of the instance do not, why do the droplets?
Recent nerfs have otherwise made this a fine dungeon, though the timer could stand to be a bit more forgiving considering how much health mini bosses have on fortified and how long the boss fights are on tyrannical.
Siege of Boralus:
First boss is anti fun for casters, furthering examples of irritating design that essentially forces one of your team out of the fight for the duration unless they happen to be one of the right classes. This isn’t a huge problem but frequent forced movement in this era’s already poor class design is not the most engaging of encounters.
The demolisher tentacle on the 3rd platform of the last boss has far too much health (3 or 4 times more than all other demolishers). This seems unnecessary given the already long encounter.
Temple of Sethraliss:
Nerfs and bug fixes have made this dungeon a lot more fun recently, my only real criticism is that the first boss still feels frustrating to deal with given the number of near lethal mechanics overlapping.
Motherlode:
The last boss is - yet again - constant forced movement indicative of an anti-fun design for casters or ranged (including healers). Not really a problem, but this design is still annoying.
The trash between 2nd and 3rd boss is almost universally skipped; if you want people to play this trash, all of the abilities need to be interruptible or all the mobs should be susceptible to stuns/disrupt effects.
Underrot:
Spores on the last boss still spawn volcanic even after being fixed not to spawn explosives. Volcanic is an easy affix, but this seems unintentional.
Tol Dagor:
Even after nerfs to the last boss’ dot stacking, RNG can still cause him to chain cast explosive bursts which on tyrannical can easily be 80+% of someone’s health bar every time. Unavoidable damage being chain cast over and over offers little counterplay other than demanding unreasonable output from healers. Make explosive burst not chain cast or make it favour melee as often as it favours ranged to make it more likely that the damage is not always on the same targets.
Waycrest Manor:
The top left path is vastly preferable to the other two. Randomising it is a nice idea, but the trash on the right sides need to be nerfed or reduced in quantity to balance the different routes.
Maggots should not bolster or burst, much like the blobs in shrine shouldn’t. Affixes do not play well with large volumes of tiny mobs and the hallways on bolstering weeks are the biggest definition of anti-fun design.
The witches spawning from proximity should be fixed to be a specific witch type. There seems to be a low chance to spawn vinetwister witches and fighting these indoors is extremely annoying with the repeated knockbacks and stuns.
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Sanguine imo is another affix that need reworking, on sanguine weeks tight places like tol dagor and waycrest is dead dungeons, this is the case of BFA. Depening on affix combos you always have some dead dungeons. Quaking is also very punishing as it deals flat out % dmg which is if i dont remeber it wrong is 20% of ur hp, this can easily kill someone if it happens to overlap with some boss mechanic, a good example of this is freehold first boss high keys on tyrannical, some abilites can randomly target a player and if they dont pop a cd it can easily oneshot.
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Pull back. Problem solved
Just to chime in here with my feedback. I completely agree that there are some affixes that just shouldn’t go together (teeming/fortified) - but just like a lot of people in this thread I dislike the key system.
I very much prefer that keystone do not get depleted and in fact that the entire system is revamped so there’s choice involved. I would like that the mythic ‘stone’ inside the dungeon simply unlocks at the highest difficulty of the lowest member +X depending on the last completion timer. This means if you fail the run you can go out and try again. You should be able to select a lower difficulty (if you like just like Grifts).
As with everyone here I agree that rewards should follow higher difficulty whatever you decide that should be.
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I don’t know why you’ve removed azerite armour from mythic plus weekly chest… the titan residuum is a good addition but I didn’t receive a single piece of azerite gear before you removed them and now it’s useless to spend residuum on them…
Suggestions on Balancing and Fixing Dungeons in BFA
I’m a player that often pugs for mythic dungeons in the brackets of 10 to 15, I also do sometimes play with guildies and friends. I also often tank for these dungeons and sometimes DPS . In BFA there are some artificial difficulty spikes where groups are prone to wiping very easily, as well as some dungeons having bosses and trash that are either to easy or make no sense mechanically. Another issue I have with these dungeons is how some of them have way to high emphasis on magic damage when not all tanks have good magic mitigation.
I’m a Game Designer myself and I have though for some possible solutions for these dungeons. I was inspired by the act that blizzard was willing to change some dungeons radically since its inception.
Design goals:
- Equalize difficulty between dungeons and adjust difficulty spikes.
- Have a more balanced approach to damage types in dungeons (Magic vs Physical).
- Make dungeons fun.
*Note that we are not tackling class balance. Also these changes are meant to increase the chance of completing a dungeon, not timing it.
1.General Changes
Problem: There are to many enemies that cast nonstop magic spells on the tank which are extremely punishing for tanks that don’t have strong magic mitigation.
-Make all enemies that currently cast one ability nonstop have a 5 seconds cooldown on it so they also deal melee attacks between their casts. This includes the casters in kings rest, zul miniboss, gauntlet mini boss, casters in tol dagor, casters in shrine, and the casters in siege of boralus.
- Specific Changes
2.1 Kings Rest
Problem: Council fight is way harder than any other boss in the instance, this is caused by to many mechanics overlaps, very high damage, and a lot of magic damage from totem boss. The brutes are way to punishing when combined with other trash, especially in teeming weeks.
-Remove the interference of other bosses that died, no more barrel roll, poison nova or axe barrage while the boss is not active.
-Give totem bos lightning bolt cast a 5 second cooldown so he doesnt spam cast it on the tank.
-Make brutes aoe slam 50% less wide, so you have more time to get out of it.
2.2 Temple of Sethralis
Problem: All bosses except the last one is to difficult due to much unavoidable damage, visual clutter, and semi enrage timers. The healing requirements on the third boss are also way higher than any other boss in the game.
-First boss, either remove or redesign static nova. Make it a visible area that will get damaged, not unavoidable damage that can overlap with other mechanics and one shot you.
-Second boss, remove the last phase/ enrage phase where he spawns adds while he is up.
-Third boss, significantly reduce the initial damage of the beam (like 70-90% ish?) but make the stacks increase the damage by a lot more (like from 10% per stack to 50% ish?). The intent of the change is to significantly reduce the amount of healing required on people soaking the beams if they are rotating it properly and not letting people get to many stacks.
2.3 Waycrest Manor
Problem: The three witches, too much damage to many mechanics bloat, and a hard enrage timer. The maggots, they multiply and overwhelm to quickly with their infest mechanic, plus they are hard to target when there are multiple enemies around them.
-Change the infest mechanic of maggots to be only a heavy damage dot, no disappearing and creating 3 new maggots.
-Remove the mechanic dire ritual from the three sisters boss. Enrage timers have no place in a m+ environment.
-When the sister controls a player, it will never use any of its defensive abilities.
2.4 Tol Dagor
Problem: Tol dagor is generally decently balanced except for the last 2 bosses. The third boss makes no sense mechanically, it feel like it is missing a mechanic that uses the barrels outside of placing away so you don’t die. The last boss has a lot of unavoidable damage and doesn’t make much use of the paralyse bar.
-Last boss explosive circles should deal a significantly less damage (50-80% ish?) but have more interaction with the paralyse bar. It now fills 50% of your paralyse bar, so if you get hit by two circle you instantly get stunned, and when you got recently hit you want to be more careful about moving around. Although this will need testing to make it feel right, the paralyse bar doesn’t really feel like a mechanic for the most part right now and the unavoidable damage is to high.
-Third boss needs a new mechanic that interacts with the barrels. The one I think would fit very well is that at 70% and 40% boss health there will spawn a special item in a corner which needs to be hit by 5 barrels at once to activate. When activated it sends a shock wave to the boss and stuns it for 15 seconds and increases the damage he takes by 50% during it. Numbers will have to be tested ofcourse. The idea is to reward group play of everyone contributing to moving the barrels and feel good about it, the mechanic should require at least 4 players contributing to moving the barrels.
2.5 Freehold
Problem: First boss has a lot of bursty damage and is often cheezed by ranged. Second boss with captain eudora does to much burst damage with grape shot.
-On first boss, make the bird spray constant aoe on anyone standing outside of the arena. Make the cone aoe of boss a damage over time instead of instant damage, over 5 seconds.
-On second boss, Eudora grape shot does is now a damage over time instead of instant, over 10 seconds.
2.6 Ataldazar
Problem: Last boss spider mechanic can get out of control. High priest boss is to easy and never poses a challenge, even if you fail mechanics, it will just take longer to kill, it can’t kill you.
-Limit the amount of spiders that can be active on last boss (8-10ish?)
-High priest add moves slower cannot be CCed and has more health, make failed beams attempt do a lot of damage to the player instead of healing her (to the point it kills a player without a big defensive and healing). Make the reward for doing it correctly surviving and succeeding, not make her kill herself quickly. Don’t make her take damage of the blood and lower her max HP to compensate, it’s silly that no matter what dps you do it doesn’t matter because the mechanic does abysmally more damage than you ever could.
2.7 Underrot
Problem: The second boss does to much damage with tantrum while forcing you to soak.
-Reduce tantrum damage (30-50%ish?)
2.8 Shrine of the Storm
Problem: Second boss is a little to hard with the amount of mechanics bloat and visual clutter. The bridge area caster have to many mechanics bloat, it is really hard to tell what is going on. On last boss you spend way to much time on the adds phase instead of fighting the boss.
-Remove the tornados mechanic of second boss, it is hard enough without it.
-On last boss reduce passive energy generation of boss by 50%.
-Remove some of the fluff abilities of the casters on the bridge (like the buffs that make you miss em more) and make it more visually clear when they cast mind rip (maybe give a cd to their abilities so they don’t only spam cast all the time)
2.9 Siege of Boralus
Problem: Last boss is pretty hard numerical mainly due to the magic dot damage. Bananas are really hard to see visually.
-Bananas could use a visual outline to make it clearer where they are.
-The magic debuff of last boss could do less initial damage (25-50% ish?) and do more damage over time the longer it is not dispelled.
Well that was the suggested changes, what do you think need adjusting to make all dungeons better and more inline in terms of difficulty?
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The difficulty curve of an M+ is all over the place due to the Affixes and how they synergize.
This makes them harder in some weeks than raiding. Some weeks they’re pathetic and in other weeks “nope!”
Please settle on a difficulty and make sure that the Affixes are always mixed to fit that. No more impossibly hard combinations and no more ridicolously easy ones either. Equal difficulty with different challenges each week. Right now it’s different challenges and different difficulty each week.
This means that some Affixes will exclude others. For example the combination of Fortified + Grievous is bad for a Prot Warrior. Unimaginably bad.
Next up the Affixes themselves. The season Affixes does little to boost the difficulty, unless Bolstering is on the menu, while Fortified and Tyrannival makes HUGE differences in both how a dungeon is handled and how the other affixes work.
Switch the two. Season Affixes should be the first one while Fortified and Tyrannical should be the last one. In that way they increase the difficulty as the should.
As for tanks, I can only really speak for Prot Warriors on this one, please change them completely.
Prot Warriors have the most useless niche out there. Most damage of all the tanks. That’s great, a tank is there to take the most damage though. Which makes a DK best by far since they can make the black bits of the health bar go green again.
This will do a ton to help with the disparity between tanks. Let them all focus on survivability in different ways. Right now the two extremes are “hardest to kill” and “does the most damage.” The first is way better than the later.
Making the effect of Manneroth Bloodied Mannacles a baseline effect for Prot Warriors would go a long way to make them on par with the other tanks. Of course reduce their damage accordingly. I’m so tired of being next to useless since I can only reduce incoming damage, which all tanks can, and never negate it, which all tanks except Prot Warriors can reliably do.
PLEASE !!! Do not set up the level so high on the ilvl keys in that weekly box with free items. Basically you need to make it +1 ilvl not +5 per each Mythic level you complete. So for example: don’t give 375 ilvl free items in the box for each n00b that buys or gets a free boost with their alts or mains from some ppl. You need to make them work harder. For example for ilvl 375 item you need to do 5 x Mythics +9 to grow it from 370 to 375. Don’t just make it 375 directly! Stop giving free loot, this is why n00bs end up in higher Mythic groups and spread toxicity in the game!!!
Mythic+ needs to be removed… I do not understand how the devs don’t see how much it spreads the community in 139519513 different instances and makes the game feel super dead… dungeons should be on a daily lockout and simply be hard to do and not artificially made hard by adding a thousand difficulties… it also ruins the dungeons that have been worked on for so long by turning them from “hey yes it’s that place I get to fight this super cool lore character!” or whatever into “how fast can we do it guys HOW FASTR CAN WE DO IT!?/1/ IDONT EVEN CARE WHAT IT IS JUST HOW FAST CAN IT BE!?!” it’s a terribly unhealthy system for the game… removing it and making dungeons matter again would be a huge step towards returning WoW back to glory days - it will make a huge wound of course because many people would be upset over m+ going away, but they’ll get over it or if they stop playing they’ll come back once they see that the game is actually much better without this dumb m+ which it would be
not to mention that m+ to a huge extent devalues any kind of raiding because of the gear it gives… many people don’t want to do raiding at all now because why would they when they can just run this 20 minute content and get raid-level gear? raiding is dying and m+ is probably the biggest reason for it
it is very sad that nobody is talking about how harmful for the game m+ is - yes I get that it’s fun, but not all fun things are healthy and you have many examples of that even in real life
removing m+ is necessary if anyone actually cares for the longevity of this game
Aside from a better tune of the loot (currently the effort is hardly compensated by the rewards), it would be nice to have casual affix for the keys and dungeon specific affix.
Maybe 1 base affix for everyone, 1 random on the key, 1 dungeon specific.
Will definitely fix the “no this week is a pain i’ll do my 10 and i’m done” with the consequent player scarcity and the “this week is awesome let’s grind this endlessly and get a thousand titanforged items” where everyon gets geared to heroic lvl in 1 week.
And could be a solution to some dungeons being a real pain with some affix while others are unaffected. Sanguine in Atal is not the same of sanguine in the small corridors of Waycrest. Negligible in the first case, much more a pain in the second.
Hi,
there are 3 things that bothers me.
- Keystone deletion
I think the remove of keystone deletion was a big hit, for majority of players. I know there are many comunities, where ppl can join key what they want and I could too with 1k7 RIO score, but that is not what i enjoy, we have our party of 10 ppl with I like to run keys and it is seriously flawed, when on same week we have 3 dungeons to pick from. It even seems the game preffer on each week random dungeons.
I would really enjoy NPC where i can downgrade my key for exchange:
-1 lvl: to get random key
-2 lvl: to get specific key
Why? After removal key deletetion. Friend’s who pushed with me for Season FoS doesn’t have their, when we rotate the same dungeons and in 4 weeks we didn’t saw Temple 15+ across 10 chars. Its really demotivating to even bother after few dungeons.
- Siege of boralus issues:
- texures. There can be noone who can say from blizzard side, this dungeon was made with intention be competitive for MDI. The misscast rate here is abnormal with all casting on trees, side of buildings and frozen orb who cant travel because there is a litter rock on the ground.
- last boss. Over 7+ min for boss in this dungeon is biased.
- LFG for M+ without addons this is unusable
- missing lvl range
- too much spam WTS groups
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Personally I want a more diversion when it comes to classes, sadly right now it feels like it will be impossible. due to how the overall classes work. You want all this cc, hard cc, mass interupts, taunt tree’s Cr’s. knockbacks, anything you can use to save your team, and why wouldnt you?
Here’s the major issue, when you start pushing 15 and higher and higher, you want as many tools as you possibly can, raw damage is simply not enough in this case, you want to be able to contribute to the team with some sort of cc.
This is where a lot of the classes fail when it comes to consinder them viable, here’s my issue, you can see “most” classes atleast one or two do somewhat decentily, but often, this is due to people playing with friends knowing they are decent player’s and can pull their own weight.
But when we talk about 5 strangers who never met. trying to say lets do a 17 this week.
Give me one example why you would bring a warrior DD, over a DH DD. Why you would bring a feral over a rogue, why you would bring a paladin over a monk or druid for healers.
DH tank or druid over a DK or warrior now.
Some classes are merely just a press button hit hard kind of tool when it comes to mythic plus, sadly in raid this is never a issue since there’s 20 people and everything is almost viable for all kinds of raid content, but when it’s mythic plus with limited spots, you want the very best comp you can get, and sadly that would often be something like a Elemtal shaman, DH DD rogue, dk/warrior tank Druid/monk/priest
You notice a quite a lot specs are cut out, ofcourse these are not the only viable classes, but this is merely an example of what you would get. Rogues have been to strong, way to overpowered when it comes to their damage mixed with their tool kits, and no i am not biased, I switched to main demon hunter for mythic plus, and yes they are way to stupdily overpowered too.
A class can’t have the best kind of damage, meanwhile also having the best kind of tool kit, while other classes are merely just high damage, but no tools.
Only way you can make mythic plus a lot better, is if it’s like in Legion, atleast towards the end when almost everything was viable to some degree, if a class didnt have a lot of hard cc, you sure bet they bring the damage to compenset for it, if a class had all the tools in the world, there damage would be beat by something with less tools, instead right now it’s like, Rogue DH DK, you got all the tools and your damage is often way higher to compared to anything out there, so why even consinder other classes.
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There are so many bad ideas here from it makes me afraid blizz will listen to wrong people.
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Dont remove API (rio and wp are one of the biggest reason most people push keys even)
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Maybe give some option to reroll key to another dung ~ 2 lower lvls (could be limit once, then you have to use key)
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Some dungeons are way harder to time than other (Shrine?)
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Need shroud in every group
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RNG in M+ is bad (Getting good or bad opening in WM is easily 2-3 minutes)
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Some affixes or their combo is so bad people dont even enjoy playing it, feels more like a chore
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TITANT RESIDUM and world first race. Is this a joke? Streamers have been using their popularity to create personal groups where all azerite goes to them. So they can buy 415 items at release of mythic raid. This vendor should definitely be postponed by 1-2 weeks.
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Just want to add my 2 cents about pushing m+ being more rewarding.
Simply put to make people more interested so that more and more stable groups would be created and overall more higher keys would be done during the day by pugs aswell.
Looking at current season there should be base rewards increased for finishing the dungeon. So for example a +15 gives a 370 base 16/17 should give 375 18/19 380 and 20/21 385 base with the 395 tf cap ofc.
I agree with the notion that shroud is too powerful. The most easy fix to that problem would be to take the invis-pots of the other pot-cds. This way you can still skip in similar fashion to having a rogue without losing too much damage output with the 10min cd on pots
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So I made a video that in 8.0 about my feelings specifically regarding mythic plus.
Some points that I would like to speak about that are brought across in my video that have at least been looked at by Blizzard:
- Balls in Temple of Seth, This is much easier to deal with now for those players with High latency.
- The “No play Weeks or Wednesdays”, this weeks affixes are a perfect example of this. “Explosive/Bolstering” — Your game is designed to Bolster adds, and explosives ruin the groups damage completely, and the RNG of explosives means that you will never be able to plan damage efficiently. *On top of this we have to spend more time on Tyranical Bosses this week so its a classic “Bottle neck” where the affixes make dealing with trash mobs pretty much just as time consuming as doing the Boss fights.
- Affixes like Greivous are still too punishing on some healer classes, turning Fortified boss fights into “Tyranical+” level Boss fights.
- Bugs: Your dungeons are still plagued with Bugs. In Tol Dagor I knocked the Warden through the roof with a ring of peace, and not only did he keep bashing us with lockdown that we couldnt see, But also pulled pretty much half the dungeon to our location. Ghuunies are still able to run through doors/cages and walls Thank goodness this is the last week of Infested so Im not going to talk about this affix because its still bad.
- Raider.io: I am not against their system, in fact I very much appreciate what they have done for the game. This scoring system is pretty much the reason we push. I just feel like Blizzard could do better at making us want to complete higher keystone dungeons And Titan Res is not enough. We need good AP, better loot and titles that mean more than +15 Keystone master !.
- Deleting keystones are not possible anymore. In A world where your dungeons are so unbalanced that we need to be able to re-roll keys, why did you not first address the issues we have with all of the dungeons before you removed the ability to delete keystones. Why is which keystone you get at the end of a dungeon based on RNG? there is no reward in this system!!
Go and look at my RIO page, under Shrine of the storms, I must be a bad player right, or am I just desperately trying to make the best of this dungeon? I can close my eyes right now and tell you exactly how the runs are going to go in that place. - There has been no change to the Meta (class selection), as predicted.
You have turned the adjustment knob on Shamans from 0-100%. Why could they not have been at 70% since launch?
Radical performance changes need to stop! I dont want to play a class because its overpowered, there is no reward in this. - I have received 380 waist items in my m+ chest for the past 5 weeks consecutively. I have only received 3 Azerite items from my M+ caches since the first week of M+, of which one of them was a duplicate item and I STILL wear those items.
How is this system functional? - The world best M+ players stream 10 hours a day, go spend 1 hour on their streams and you will know all the things that need to be changed in M+.
- The community is brainwashed by the current systems and clueless about what player experience means, and there is no reason to stick with a M+ team. people jumping from one key to the next key, because “I dont need a +17 Waycrest”. I mean, the community will have to look in the mirror here, and realize that WE can make M+ a better place despite all the other issues.
This video was made in 8.0, 2 weeks before 8.1’s release.
Most points are still valid, 8.1 was not enough!
Rework the Affixes to match the design of the dungeons.
Go to My YouTube page Elohimz wow, and find my M+ Experience/Review video.
Watch it if you have the time.
This is just my best attempt at addressing the issues in M+, is that not why we are all here?