Feedback: Paladin Hero Talents in The War Within

I disagree. From what I have read, Lightsmith seems 100% perfectly compatible with the playstyle of Holy Paladin. Not so sure about the other partner-spec Protection tho.

The only way it is compatible is if you look at it in a vacuum.

Does it fit the idea of holy paladin supporting others with the power of the light? Yes, sure and it’s a cool idea in theory.

Does it work with the current playstyle and class design? No it does not.

Today holy paladin has button, idea and buff maintence bloat.

For example we have glimmer to keep track of, tyr’s to keep track of and keep up, you have 4 different seasons to keep track of, you have holy power, mana, melee spells and infusions on top of all the other abilities. You have a melee vs “caster” fight between spec identify and the balance between them. Half of these things don’t interact with each other.

We are already overcapping holy power because we do not have globals to spare. You ignore spenders because infusions are more healing for less mana. Then you even waste infusions because holy shock has priority over everything. You already drop for example barrier of faith because you do not have gdc’s to even keep up with the above in raid.

Now on top of this they want to add another support ability that you need to track and to maximize uptime.

Funny enough, holy pala already has an ability that boosts the survivability or damage of another player and that is blessing of summer. This is blessing but with extra steps and even goes against their own statement on hero powers not adding complexity. What is the difference between this and blessing of summer by design? What does this add? They would not give priest a 2nd PI and give it another name for example.

Holy paladin needs a clear vision foward and not even more half baked ideas thrown at the wall to see what sticks that only interacts with certain parts of the kit or playstyle.

I disagree. When I play Holy Pala, I heal mainly by either dealing damage (Avenging Crusader) or by spending Holy Power / Holy Shock. Only in rare situations I need to actually use Divine Toll or the Tyr ability. And I don’t even use that (imo stupid) Seasons Spell-kit others use (because they are meta slaves)…

It is not that hard as you try to make it sound like.

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I want to start of saying I respect that you play holy paladin the way you want to play.

And I want to mention I never said it was hard. There is a difference between too much stuff going on and something being hard. Which is why blizzard removes abilities from time to time, you can’t keep adding things forever.

So I must say I am confused by the “It is not that hard as you try to make it sound like” comment.

You play the objectively worse build that does worse throughput, worse damage, worse mana substain and has a worse healing profile than any standard build. There is a reason noone at any decent pve content level plays AC this tier.

So my answer to that i guess is: sure if you ignore entire parts your kite, don’t use your abilities/cooldowns and play suboptimally then yes it isnt that “hard”.

But it seems to me you agree with me when we look at it at a deeper level. You want to play a certain way (melee) but does this hero talent benefit that? No, in AC and melee you don’t want to spend globals on infusions (especially not in AC window) but the entire hero talent is based around spending globals on infusions to keep up the buff. Meaning this pushes the caster build significantly further ahead.

But the most baffleing part is you cannot on one hate on seasons (which I agree with you on) and then support this hero talent. It is the EXACT same spell. It is an external, that boosts the damage or survivabilty of someone. Both do the exact same thing.

Look at the section I quoted. You spoke about “there is too much to keep track off”. From my perspective there isn’t.

That’s the part we both talk different paths.

Holy Armaments is an additional spell in a separated track. I don’t have to decide between 2 spells with it, unlike with Blessing of Seasons which requires talent points from the role spec tree. The Hero talents are a separated tree which we will unlock fully when reaching level 70 in the TWW expansion.

To summarize the difference again:

Blessing of Seasons:

  • Requires me to make a choice between Power A or Power B
  • Requires me to play a certain way that I don’t like on Holy Paladin
  • It is a Power Choice between options within the class kit itself
  • Has 4 different rotation effects (less control over it)

Holy Armaments:

  • Doesn’t require me to make a choice between talents
  • Is a (G)CD that benefits any prefered playstyle on Protection and Holy Paladin
  • It is power added upon the class kit power itself, so no talent point choice between talent nodes
  • Has only 2 rotations (Holy Bulwark/Sacred Weapon)

You have to remember, the Hero talents are meant to enhance more than just 1 role. It is totally ok that they aren’t that super strong for one spec alone. They are meant to be a slight buff. Holy Armaments also is easier to control for the player due to less spell rotations for the desired effect, unlike Blessing of Seasons.

Edit: AND there are passives that even reduce the cooldown further of Holy Armaments for using basic spells of your class kit. Just saying.

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My current feedback is i would like this to only affect how your spells look so its more a theme for you if you like to wear the light and imbued tools with the light.

I really like the though of you wearing the light and being able to summon Tool imbued with light. And i think the light smith is a great name for this, this could have some very nice lore linked to the titans and their way of seeing the light.

I think Herald of the Sun maybe should be renamed Lightbringer.
This would be a very cool thing it had a theme where you have a connection to the Guardian of ancients kings make them more a people of their own right maybe similar to Kyrians but still not Kyrians. Could be a good story to get Uther back into the story and make him a force of the light again.
Then you can have spells and abilities use the concept of the guardian of ancients kings for your looks.

Templar is cool i was wondering maybe this could be linked to more world attributes linked to the silver hand, argent dawn, Sunsworn, the hand of Argus etc.
This could be very wide a cool.

I would personally prefer that this system is for class lore and class look, and keep power in the current talent system and develop that.

Having been able to read what the lightsmith (my initial post is post 9 iirc in this thread) does and how it works, atleast its not as atrocious as how I thought it would work, that it would just drop a random item on a random location which someone had to go out of their way to click
Instead you target an area on the ground and when people walk over it they get a buff, it is still bad in my eyes. These sound like buffs we cannot afford to waste on the problems with targeted ground casts, macros will be a baseline requirement to not lose something to bad terrain

Personally I would never pick lightsmith as it is described now.

Depends what’s the other choice tbh, just treating it as kinda old Sacred Shield(the mop absorb over time) is worth for ppal imho, but if ret+prot tree has better defensiveness then ye wouldn’t pick it

Hi. Hopefully I can provide some constructive feedback about the Lightsmith preview from a Prot / tank perspective. I haven’t been brave enough to play as Holy in this expac.

Reading through the lightsmith hero talents, first thoughts for my own setup would be to pick ‘Divine Inspiration’ (Your spells and abilities have a chance to manifest a Holy Armament nearby) from the middle option and, in all likelihood, never manually press the Holy Armament spell. Instead I would just let the armaments spawn passively and carry on concentrating on the rest of the rotation plus the tank mechanics etc.

This is because, as Prot, I already have lots and lots and lots of buttons to use, nearly too many for my little brain. If another manual ability was added in to the rotation as it stands, I would end up swapping talents around to try and pick up more passives in order to reduce the number of abilities on the toolbar.
The button bloat is more obvious when I log on to another character, especially Prot Warrior, as I don’t have to do or press as many things in quick succession in order to tank the same encounters.

I don’t personally mind the idea of the armaments rotating between two effects but might be in the minority there. If the current Holy Armaments talent is kept, perhaps the spell effect on the ground could appear differently for each effect? This would help players figure out which one is which.

I have read comments on these forums and the US forums where lots of us think that other party / raid members won’t break their rotations to move over the armaments, or they might not notice them on the floor in the midst of busier boss mechanics etc.
I agree. Also, going by my own experience (nearly 20 years on WoW, pls send help …), if something spawns on the floor and I don’t recognise it, I won’t move into it / click it unless I know what it is and know it won’t melt me or teleport me to the Dalaran crater.

As a suggestion, instead of a targeted spell, Holy Armaments could be a group-wide buff similar to the Aug Evoker’s Ebon Might? For example, it could provide the four nearest allies the Scared Weapon buff but provide either extra holy damage or extra healing, depending on their spec? The next cast could then provide the Holy Bulwark buff to tank-spec allies (or the player if they are the tank).
This idea is still thematic to a Lightsmith Paladin. Instead of crafting an armament and placing it on the floor, the Pala is willing the light to empower their allies.

I like the ‘Rite of’ options on the left side and would certainly use them. It would be nice for Blessing of Might / Wisdom / Kings to make a comeback as a group / raid buff. Are Paladins still selfless heroes who inspire and protect others? Even though the rites are nice abilities, it feels slightly out of place for a Pala to only buff themselves (or am I talking nonsense?) Of course, the armaments tick that whole buffing others thing anyway. ‘Fear no Evil’ is a nice thematic fit for Paladins. Some of the other talents are OK, not much else to say about them and the optional nodes fit into the same category as the normal talents, where by they get swapped around depending on encounter or preference.

‘Divine Guidance’ seems nice, as I have to try and stand in consecration most of the time anyway for the damage reduction, so if it provides some extra healing to me and extra damage to the thing punching my head, that can’t be a bad thing. I am now used to the current tier set providing a “big boys” consecration at the moment, but that will change in season 4 anyway (not a compliant).

‘Hammer and Anvil’ is also very nice. Judgment is my hardest hitter and provides holy power, so its nice to buff it.

You might be pleased to read that is all I can think of, for now …

Now that Herald of the Sun and its talents are out - where is An’she in the theming? It is very clearly based off of Sunwalkers (who are the only paladins using Sun as a source of their powers as of now), but not a single mention of their deity?

Why are all the specifically themed sets elf- or even just Alliance themed? We get Chosen of Elune, but no Herald of An’she? Why are Horde races and cultures always thrown into the gutter just so Alliance with its boring humans and frankly overdone elves can be centered on always? (And I say this as someone who loves night elves!)

Please rename some of the talents to reflect the literal solar deity, An’she. Throw us tauren and Horde fans a bone Blizzard!

Please no. We get enough Alliance theming as is with paladins (the other two Hero Specs are 100% Alliance), let us Horde paladins have a little bit of something at least.

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Having taken a look at Templar as the other prot hero talent tree
It seems that this hero talent tree choice puts emphasis on a deep talent choice in the protection tree

even tho I feel like its an ability most people pick (eye of tyr) it still feels as if these hero talents are trying determine for us which talents we should pick

For example, lets say I do not have eye of tyr and I pick templar, then going by what I read from the descriptions and tooltips I will never be able to cast Hammer of Light.

Otherwise it feels very dps oriented, only really giving me shield of vengeance at 10%, once again, only if I have eye of tyr selected as a very late choice (second last) row of the paladin protection tree.

Between templar and lightsmith, both feel a bit lackluster.
Templar will only work with the eye of tyr talent (which is probably a popular one but still) and will at most give some extra damage and I feel like negligable mitigation.

Lightsmiths armament gimick feels like lightwell design 2.0 (= bad) but it does give a bunch of mitigation

This boils the choice down too a tree that focusses on damage and a tree that focusses on mitigation, why even have us share these trees with other specs if this is the outcome?

I’m sure both can be tuned so that they are numerically viable for prot, but playstyle wise neither of the two options for prot really tickle me in a major way

Herald of the sun I can’t speak much of as I only play prot, but I like the aesthetics of it described in the tooltips. I can see both blood elves and tauren picking this option regardless of meta because of it.

I will just say, Templar and Hammers? Where did you get that thought? If you just tipe templar in Google and go to images you are going to know what am I talking about. I was really hoping for an aesthetic of swords and steed combo. This is just lackluster.

I really hope that you rework that whole talent tree.

Speaking from the perspective of a Protection main.

Broadly speaking I feel Templar has the potential to offer an enjoyable playstyle, however the 5 HP cost for Light’s hammer will make it initially problematic to use at fresh Level 80 where we will likely be quire lacking in Haste and thus will struggle to generate sufficient excess holy power to use it without dropping Shield of the Righteous - something we cannot afford to do at lower ilevels - this will be exacerbated if the unaddressed bug where Divine Toll intermittently fails to generate HP isn’t resolved for The War Within.

If the Divine Toll issue can be resolved this will open up some interesting skill expression potential by coordinating the tree abilities (Divine Toll, Eye of Tyr and Light’s Hammer) - but the current bug would make that option too unpredictable (and this dangerous for a tank) to rely on.

The cost is fine for Retribution but could benefit with being reduced to 3 for protection if the DT bug remains.

Lightsmith was already an unattractive choice overall due to a playstyle that at least for mee seems to be overcomplicated and unrewarding - and when compared to Templar (especially once we get up to 30%+ haste) it feels very unlikely that I’d want to use it in any circumstances.

What this means that for Protection the hero talents offer only an illusion of choice - in reality IMO Lightsmith won’t be a viable choice for us - neither in terms of enjoyability or power wise.

Overall I think Light smith could benefit from a bit of a second look - ideally leaning heavily into being a personal defensive option instead of the current pseudo support - this could offer some genuine choice vs Templar’s very strong damage focus.

I think Herald of the Sun and Templar fundamentally are exciting and add a change to gameplay that will be interesting to play around.

Sadly i don’t think that the same will be said for the current iteration of lightsmith. On reading the name of this hero class during blizzcon, my mind was racing with possibilites as the theme of working with the light as a material has a cool theme that could be easily built on.

Protection paladin mastery currently feels horrible, and as several protection and holy talents built off of the use of consecration, in my head, imagining a lightsmith, i imagined a large CD ability replacing consecration, where my character would smash a hammer against a holy anvil, creating reverbarations that healed, and damaged, giving holy a healing CD that acted like a panic button, and acted as another DPS CD for protection paladin.

Alot of the imbuement options from the existing tree could easily fit into this theme, with each strike of the hammer on the anvil imbues an ally with an empowered holy weapon, making the next strike against thier target deal additional holy damage, much like blessing of seasons.

Secondly there needs to be an assessment made against the holy power generation between the other trees and this one, especially from the perspective of protection and the fact that holy power generation is active mitigation generation. Whilst the addition of 3 holy power to eye of tyr and a 10% chance for a CD reset on HoW is low, over the duration of a 4-5minute fight, or a 20minute dungeon, that is a considerable amount of holy power generation that would be lost out on compared to the lightsmith tree

One problem i see with the current Hero talents is that they will go down one of two ways for Ret

1: Templars will hardly be able to heal themselfs
2: HotS healing will be extremly OP

As talents are now there is no middle ground on this.

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