Feedback: Paladin Hero Talents in The War Within

Please check out the preview and let us know what you think in this thread.

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Please just make the armaments function like a normal buff on players, so that the gameplay of Paladin isn’t massively altered. Just make it work like all the Blessings, Glimmer of Light, Lay on Hands etc.

No reason to add in new gameplay that doesn’t match the rest of the spells.


It’s hard to judge this all without actually trying it, but it’s hard to imagine that this will be fun with the way current paladin plays.

The spec has a ton of issues and layering another system on top will probably not work.

Also what does “Blessed Assurance” even do for holy paladin. We don’t even have Crusader Strike keybound in raids, it is so useless. Unless there is some context we are missing, like Avenging Crusader being somewhat baked in to our spec, then this talent does not make sense.


Feedback for lightsmith:
In general i am not a fan of the abilities that rotate. When im playing my character i want full control of my abilities and when it changes i dont like the feeling of being in pvp or m+, where i want a certain buff but i cant because it isnt where i am currently and its not fun to mentally track.

Also putting them on the ground for pvp is completely cringe no other way to say it. If u have a warlock m8 for an example and he is kiting for his life he will not notice a bullwark on the ground that would potentially help him a lot, and i dont want to try and hit his running path. In general for me this is a pass and just needs to be changed. I cant see any redeeming features of this playstyle.

I am an enjoyer of the way they have changed ret paladin and that is what im currently maining since they gutted the playstyle of my beloved holy paladin. In general blizzard missed the ball on holy paladin and needs to change the philosophy of gameplay here. Tyrs deliverance is hell in pvp, its 30% of your healing and u press it once, and not fun in any content, Divine toll should be a big cooldown like shadowlands but feels like a noodle, Blessing of summer is just not fun and needs to be changed as well. I think lightsmith is a symptom of a philosophy for holy paladin that the players dont want.

Also the talent divine guidance also shows that the philosophy of gameplay for prot paladin is also missing. I have not heard of a single player that likes consecration and that u are forced to stay in it otherwise u are a noodle. The idea of a little golden light on the ground being all my tankyness is just wrong. We dont want more modifiers to consecration we want u to completely remove that aspect of prot paladin i personally dont like the RNG of blessed hammer but thats another story. Again i think the philosophy of the spec just isnt great and i think paladin is currently getting carried by ret being fun so the painpoints of the other specs dont come to the light. Holy paladin is unplayable personally and i dont really enjoy prot either. Needs to rethink the wheel here


Initial Lightsmith feedback from a holy paladins perspective:

I would be excited about this if it wasnt for an issue with current Hpals playstyle, specifically how un-intuitive but impactful Of Dusk and Dawn is - and I could be misunderstanding the implemantation of Lightsmith, but it just seems like Dusk and Dawn but with extra steps.

Currently there is an issue with Hpal where if you spend holy power abilities without a Dawn buff, it is actually not worth the GCD nor the mana cost of the spell. Based on this my inital gut reaction to Holy Armaments is that it will result in a similar playstyle, where you need to track which armament buff you already have, and therefore what spell is correct to use based upon that. This sort of playstyle currently doesnt work well in game as there is no effective way of tracking what buff you have without additional addons and/or weakauras (which I dont mind but is punishing to new players), whilst also having a negative effect on your rotation, which in the post and interviews is something that is a clear goal that you DONT want to happen. Every Armament needs to provide at least close enough equal amounts of throughput as eachother, or you need to be able to control what armament you get, or else this degenerate behaviour of tracking them will happen.

Also the vast majority of these talents are based upon spending Holy Power, which as it stands in the live version of the game, is the last thing you want to do, due to them being undertuned throughput wise (only mildly saved by Dawn), and also them draining your mana pool. If this version of Lightsmith is to go live a massive look into tuning Power spenders has to happen.

Thematically, I kinda like the idea, however Im not excited by the Armaments. From the interview with George Valev & Jade Martin with Nobbel (which I love youre doing way more interviews, please keep that it), it was confirmed that the capstone Blessing of the Forge as implemented currently, will just give extra % throughput on power spending abilities. I feel Lightsmith as a whole could be both way more fun to play, and also addressing the issues I mention such as the problems with current Dusk/Dawn playstyle, if the Armaments or Blessing of the Forge just did more.

Why cant there either be an Armament that exists, or a buff via Blessing of the Forge, that meant holy shock generates another holy power (or has a % chance to to act as a tuning dial), or if it double casted any of your power spenders to then have cool interactions with say Afterimage?

TLDR, nice thematically but will hit the mark massively playstyle wise. Each Armament must provide equal (enough) throughput or, or you must be able to choose your Armament, or it will result in tracking another maintainance buff that heavily affects rotation (please take a look at power spenders on live for the same issue!). I’d like to see more interactive or impactful Armaments or buffs to them via Blessing of the Forge.

Thank you for the advanced look, and Im looking forwards to itteration on this, and also eventually getting to Praise the Sun!

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Im just hoping Rets will be one of the more fleshed out specs this time around, unlike what happened with DF launch and the botched rework they did.

I really hope the main trees dont stay the same in TWW and that they only focus on adding the hero talents.

If there is change to the main trees then the hero talents shown now are kinda out of context.

One of the biggest Problem i got with this Hero Talents is. That this an active use u need to place on the ground. With ur Holy Paladin Rework u wanna to reduce the button Bloat… but with current tuning and issues the paladin has its kinda awful to get an active button more u need to keep track of and with all the other button that are pretty high in the Priority like Blessing of Season, Holy Shock, Daybreak ,Divine Toll ,Judgement and co… u wont rly want more buttons to press at the moment… if u make it a random buff u can provide to players by usin holy power spenders like " World of Glory has a 50% chance to Grant a Holy Armanent for x amount of time to the target based on there role. And like Light of Dawn has a Chance of 15% to grand Holy Armanent to its targerts for x Amount of time. And Shield of the Righteous has a 15% to grant a Holy Armanent to Random friendly target in ur Raid/Party Holy Armanet for x Amount of time." This would be a great appreciatet Change to negate the button bloat and make the Spenders more powerful and fun to press. in the Current Holy Paladin meta u dont press ur Hpower spender that often cause they are not worth it to press except u waste 5hpower to get the double Blessing of Dawn buff cause of the insane mana costs. But with this Change u have a strong argument to make the Worth to press even if they are not fully buffed.

Thanks and Peace out

I don’t see why the Holy Armament needs to land on the ground for someone to pick up. Can’t we just use it on a target?


This is my feedback based on just reading the tooltips for obvious reasons

Rank 1 ability
Holy Armaments
Allow us to also target an ally directly, if no target just place it somewhere on the ground, having to choose a location to spawn this on the ground would be very interuptive for retribution and protection which are melee classes.
Separate the Bulwark and the Weapon to seperate buttons, this castsequence macro with no reset timer defined style of this spell feels unintuitive.

Left row
Rite of Sanctification / Rite of Adjuration
is this just for equiped weapons or does the sacred weapon from holy armaments count too and does the bulwark count as well?

Laying down arms
Due to the lack of a cooldown mentioned with Holy Armaments it is hard to know just how usefull it will be. Thematically it fits I guess.

Shared resolve
very clear in what it does, self explainatory, is what it is

Middle row
Some explanation on how it chooses the ally would be nice, proximity or do we get too choose? Random? lowest/highest health? class roles? I can see situations where I want to force the bulwark onto a tank

Divine inspiration/forewarning
Divine inspiration looks like the reason we can’t just pick a target, I would rather be able to pick a target on my holy armaments then have a random armament spawn around me which maybe no one will even notice or pick up, it randomly choosing another player to give the armament doesn’t feel right either.
For forewarning, hard to tell how good this will be without a cooldown on the armaments

Again hard to judge because we do not have a cooldown

Right row
Divine Guidance/Blessed Assurance
Not a fan of anything consecration related, the emphasis on it for protection for mitigation has made me really dislike the spell. It lacks numbers too so its hard to judge wether it will be usefull; my guess is that it will be non noticable
As for blessed assurance, for protection atleast I can’t imagine 100% damage on a wet noodle blow is going to do much, all in all a very lackluster node for protection, I would even say it feels like a placeholder until something better is thought up.

Fear no Evil/Excoriation
These feel like pvp talents, I can’t really judge there
As a tank fear no evil would be highly situational and I think excoriation would even be a non pick because when I stun something it might be because I want to separate a mob from a pack with hammer, slowing everything around it seems antithetical if thats my goal with casting hammr of justice

Hammer and Anvil
Due to any lack of numerical values its hard to judge a value, I’m willing to judge the idea but I’ve seen cool ideas showcased without numerical values before and then they release and the numerical values are so low the ability might as well not exit.
Looking forward to seeing numbers on here.

Dancing Rune Weapon Blessing of the Forge
Its in theme, sounds powerfull with some specs abilities to have a higher uptime of wings

General thoughts:
I see the theme and fantasy of it, it is very clear in what the idea is, its the whole empowerment of physical prowess through the light through things like lightforged armor and weapons, a cool fantasy, looking forward to the actual numbers so its a bit easier to judge if the talents are interesting.

Talent wise, the only one I have an issue with is the right row top node, as protection, this entire node feels entirely nonconsequential, if this was a node in the regular talent tree I would never choose either.

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Armaments being a targeted spell is a mistake. It should be a self cast buff that can also be targeted on an ally. This also works with the later talent of it appearing on an ally/yourself when equipped. The visuals can appear much like Seraphim used to change your weapons.


Armaments don’t sound very fitting to a paladin to me, nor does it arouse any excitement whatsoever - sounds tedious and that it won’t add anything intuitive or flowing to the playstyle of holy - I hope the other options are better.

Blessing sounds interesting …

Where exactly do I put these extra buttons or keybind to them? Bloated enough as it is …


This new lightforge system really does not feel good for me, speaking as a holy paladin.

I know things are subject to change, we don’t know what changes holy pala is getting but here are my thoughts.

  1. Holy paladin already has button bloat. Why are we getting another mandatory ability?

  2. Minigame: We have for e.g. glimmer, iol, holy power + mana, blessing of summer to keep track of. This is yet another ability or “buff” minigame.

  3. How does this differ from blessing of summer? We already have a button we need to press every 30s that buffs the damage or survivability of another player. How often will we be “forced” to press on this? This feels like half of our playstyle will be keeping buffs up on people. This is fine for augmentation but we are a healer.

  4. buff increase for spending iol, we already ignore holy power because iol is stronger and costs less mana. Why would we ever use spenders now?

  5. How will this work in raids? during high movement boss fights in m+? Will we be balanced around X uptime on it? what about situtations where it can’t be done?

  6. Might be easier to cast @player, but then why have it be placeable?

This entire mechanics sounds like a chore and it makes me really sad seeing this be the vision for paladin going forward.

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Armaments don’t sound very fitting for a paladin. Very boring and clunky.
Blizz said that armaments will spawn near the player, but it’s still bad to Stop DPS and pick it up. Change it please.

They should change the playstyle, not just a few attributes.

Love the sound of it all really, but playing a Lightforged blacksmith I am a bit biased.

I echo the sentiments of some above that making it ground targeted sounds awful. I imagine a lot of people will just macro @self and let RNGsus take the wheel for the paired buff. At the very least, making it GT vs ST might be a good idea for a choice node…

Thematically i love it, my paladin is lightforged and blacksmith, so this is the kind of thing that fits my character like a glove, but the proposed gameplay is simply not appealing at all.

Just the idea of having a ground targeted spell that needs to be picked (or walked over) by someone else already makes me want to stay away from this. The idea of a blessing of the seasons kind of spell that keeps changing is not a fun perspective either. I feel that this is one of those situations where gameplay should be more important than fantasy.

I don’t think the intention with hero talents is to radically transform specs to the point that a prot or holy paladin also give the same kind of support an augmentation evoker does, so i don’t believe that having agency about who to manually buff with armaments is going to be worth to the point of wanting the ability to be an active player targeted ability, that’s why in my opinion holy armaments should be an entirely passive effect tied to the use of certain abilities.

I do believe that the armaments should appear and be visible on the ground for others to pick up, because that is an important part of the fantasy, but i would make them in such a way that if no one picks them after a few seconds they return to the paladin buffing him instead (and some random ally thanks to solidarity).

Why we have to make this mistake again.
Holy priest Light-Well ability when you had to click on it,nobody used it.
Mage-s Rune of Power,some people just didnt play mage because of it.
How many paladins actually like consecration.
What if armaments spawn in wrong place,fire on the ground,Boss big dmg incoming etc…
You have to reposition or loose dps for some minor buff in return,not gone happen.
If i see something like that i already know i wont play Paladin only because of it,no matter how its implemented.

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Having to pick up an armament feels quite off-putting for me

Work on retail first maybe? You have a job to do, dont move on to a new system when you dont even have the base for it to work.

And hire/ appoint a dedicated paladin dev …look at the numbers a huge amount of players playing this class there is barely any that has the same amount of people playing with it yet you dont even have a dedicated dev who would actually listen to our feedback.
This reminds me of a question I wanted to ask - Why do you even post this here and ask us for feedback when you wont even read it or act upon it and you will do whatever you wanted to do anyway and you wont take into account anything we say? Look at what you did during this expansion with our feedback… read the forums and you will understand my problem.
This forum post from you is straigh up insulting after all the neglegence and mistreatment paladins got from you.
You ignored the feedback during beta and didnt really do much unlike with most other classes …then midway into the expansion you made some “reworks” buffed ret to god tier at the end of the season and quickly nerfed it back over 3 weeks to the ground.
And you didnt implement anything we been asking for since Legion.
There is a reason every other class calls paladins the “wheelchair” class
We kept asking for a resolution for our mobility issue and you kept ignoring it. The irony is we already had the solution you just removed it in the past for whatever reason and didnt give us anything to compensate for the loss of that.

At least respect us that much that you dont post this question here when we know there is no dev to read it and no one will care about our feedback.
We deserve better. Get your act together and appoint a dedicated dev with a face and a voice so we can trust that we dont just yell into the wind with our feedback and someone will be there to actually listen to us.

That was my feedback about it, thank you!

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