FEEDBACK: What Went Wrong? - An Attempt at Setting and Lore Analysis

I want to see complete cooperation.
Humans walking around in Orgrimmar, Orcs walking around Stormwind.
That sort of thing.

It does NOT make ANY sense when the world itself, and the survival of all races on it, is at stake and we keep on being stupid and picking fights amongst each other.
How dumb are we supposed to think all these races are?


I posted this in another similar thread. I’ll just post it here too:

I have no strong feelings one way or the other.
But… I’m fine with the story and themes of DF. I lean a bit more towards that side, because:

I was actually moved by a quest in WoW. That had never happened before in it’s entire history (I’m talking about the support dog quest here, to be clear).

A moment like that would have never happened in ‘sweaty bro Warcraft’.

What I think DF is missing is ‘epic moments’. Instead of epic moments, we’re getting character moments. Which I personally like, but it does lack that ‘Warcraft feel’.
If it had more epic moments in cinematics or cutscenes, I think the overal feeling of many people would be quite different.

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Couldnt agree more with you, OP. I hope the next expansion will bring us more of the real war and craft again. More epic cinematics and interesting characters. Miss the times when the horde where all about surviving and banding together in their tribal ways.
It was okay to have a ‘break’ in dragonflight, but this baby dragon daycare thing is not warcraft.
We need more orcs holding a head with blood dripping from the axe, and a night elf savage putting multiple arrows in the back of that orc. A scarlet crusader crusifying an undead infront of undercity showing now remorse. Blizz has to get back their teeth and guts again.

Cross faction game-play is popular request, and they said that they will go in that direction. Maybe story reflects those steps?

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The thing is, even if you DO want the crazy peace and coop vibe, those needs to be earned. You cannot simply write off all the past grudges and have entire races experience a collective mindwipe, installing cooperation.exe directly to their brain. Even when there would be peace there would always be those who push back against it, thosw who cling to the distrust. Folks who break the peace because they arent simply ok with talking to the Orc who just raided their town, slaughtering innocents or Dwarf who was trigger happily bombarding their village. There has to be tension and long tough and painful proccess to achieve it to make it successful. And even then, like I said, youd have to find a way for the factions existing at all make sense, or simply get rid of them (and be ready to replace that gaping hole in the franchise with something that would do such action justice).

While there was no full blown war, true, there was always tensions, small skirmishes and push and pull.

Dwarves were mining in Mulgore and Horde were fighting Nelves in classic.

Horde and Alliance were sabotaging each other in TBC

LK had airship battles, Wrathgate, constant sabotaging and more…

Cata was cata and Pandaria was Pandaria

I can go on and on…

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I agree. It would be realistic to see some people not accept peace ‘just like that’. The story of ‘peace between the factions’ should come with its struggles and issues.

My issue is more: How does it make sense to just ignore the big universal battle coming to our doorstep? If ‘we’ would just go back to fighting each other, it would make us the biggest bunch of idiots ever.

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I mean it made sense in WC3 and it made sense in the many times after all. The fact you pause aggression to deal with a bigger threat doesn’t mean that the aggression is gone.

I think the other side of the coin is that when there is cooperation, people will naturally discover their prejudices may be incorrect, or unnuanced. It may be forced by circumstances but you will get to know the good sides of others, no matter their faction.

To then happily dive into another faction conflict is rather jarring, at least, it made little sense to me anymore. That undoes character progression in an rpg sense just as much, without you as a player of that character having any say in the matter.

I have no idea what the way out is of this puzzle.

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When this subject is brought up, I tend to think of Daelin Proudmoore after the 3rd war. It made complete sense in the narrative. Especially if the PC is a soldier in that context. I do get how it can get jarrying to some, though. Probably some flexibility in player choice would go a long way similar to Sylvanas Loyalist vs Rebel choices.

I mean, that was a poor implementation and more of a quick bandage because quite a few horde players were unimpressed their character could only do things that they’d never support in character. The fact Blizzard didn’t even expect that, hadn’t anticipated the major disconnect a part of their playerbase would experience while being herded into a scenario where they’d commit genocide, shows how out of touch they were.

If they had offered several choices, with consequences, and a real impact on how you’d play through that expansion, that would have been amazing. In that sense one can definitely argue there is potential there if you want to revive the faction conflict.

And an edit to add: it might also work well for allowing players to be part of the other faction. And that way create a storyline to explain gameplay mechanics :slight_smile:

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Thats the thing though. There really doesnt need to be a full blown faction war again to preserve the ‘mortal conflict’. The odd skirmish, undermining one another, having interests clash.

I promise you that even after you fought against a greater threat with the opposing faction, in a battle to see who get to control Andorhal youd probably be happy to side with yours against the other. Sometimes things (resources, territorial claim) are zero sum and that is an excellent way to lead into a conflict that feels natural

Well, essentially this is what made me stop caring about the lore:

The jailer planned everything.

Honestly, it has been great ignoring the lore ever since.

Oh absolutely, I think smaller scale conflicts which then may grow bigger could be very interesting! Especially if they explore old hurts and old resentments.

I skipped SL. I did read up on some of it but I figured pretending it did and does not exist might be better for my peace of mind :wink:

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For those wondering how Blizzard writing team handles the problem of, “Where are the ones who refuse to accept peace?”

Well, as in Dragonflight being the most recent example: The Night Elves who did not forgive the burning of their homestead and genocide of their people…

They joined the Druids of the Flame or the Elementalists. They do not have any influence in their own society, indeed - they are raving mad, illogical and irrational actors. There is only one thing to do, have them join the bad guy to die as cannon fodder.

That is now a solved issue in blizzards book. The ones who refused to drink, I call it, ‘the order water’ and get reprogrammed - well they become evil minions, that we slaughter.

This is how it is explained away. Be it the Horde splitting or Night Elves wanting actual retribution, it is handled that same way.

It is the easiest way to write off any loose ends and any lingering conflict. They are dead or soon to be.

Sure, we as players might feel that things are unresolved. That is not because it wasn’t ‘solved’ in-universe, it is simply because it was done in such a cheap and moronic way.

It all loops back to the main points. Respect for the lore; all from its history, characters and events. They willingly cut any weight they don’t want to carry off from the IP. As such, we are left with a lightweight mess, that cant hold itself together.

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Yep. Just take a look at the Magister Hathorel treatment. The nelfs are treated the same now as the belfs were after the BFA 8.2 patch. Characters who chose not to swallow the peace pill are treated as d rate unreasonable villians to be defeated by the PC - once they are dealt with, all the sentiments they represent are written off the faction.

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As promised, posting some posts on Wowhead comment section by Wowhead user: ‘Caerule’ that I felt were spot on regarding the Eredar questline and it’s issues and unsuspecting impact on the lore as a whole.





Link to the original article and its comment section: https://www.wowhead.com/news/manari-eredar-questline-walkthrough-seeing-red-spoilers-335034?page=2#comments

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHWwfscCpx4
Don’t expect great writing from the crew who made this gem of shocking character revelations. Zo’Vald, the Jailer, the creator and conductor of everything bad ever… is bad . the one controlling the Lich King is like the Lich King! :dracthyr_uwahh_animated: How could Sylvanas ever forseen this?!

Yes, the writers forget everything that has been happening - always. It will never change. Shadowlands uprooted what we kinda used as a foundation of ‘that we know’, it turned it all into “you think you knew, but really - the Jailooor did it!” meme.

So there is no surprise that the writers just ignore what demons are supposed to be. Because - everything is at worst, morally Grey…

** TLDR of this part: Headcannon reasoning to why Man’ari works as good “demons”:
What stings, is that if you gave 10 fanboys a week, they would together for a somewhat acceptable coherent reasoning for the whole event. Something like, “Man’ari Eredar, was forged by Sargeras arcane power to remain in control of their current self - yet still to become immortal demonic beings”. Kind of how DHs work. That will be the the pin that makes this plausible mechanicaly in our minds.
Why would Sargeras do this? Demons are inherently egoistical being - they will betray you for their own gains at a flip of a coin. The only thing holding them in line, is the personal power of Sargeras himself. Using these Man’ari beings as his lieutenants and investing the effort to create them, was necessary to be able to lead the Burning Legion. He needed loyal subjects, not demons. Heck, you could even bind it towards SL lore, Man’ari Eredar could be crafted, because Sargeras had this inkling feeling the Dreadlords were not what they seemed to be… that he needed his own loyal agents, created and bound by his power directly.
This creation process chimes with why Kill’Jaden could find it in his heart to feel regret for his actions - as his soul, his very self, was not yet pure demon; at the very end he reflected deep within himself and found the spark of good yet uncorrupted. There was empathy in his heart still.
His death being the Fel released that was forced into order by Sargeras arcane constructs undone. (This would visually show, as Kill’Jaden red form cracking, showing the fel unleashed beneath - then explosion)
The reason Man’ari Eredar are ‘special’ now are all thanks to Sargeras’ intervention in the process of creating a demonic being. They are not demons that now are good, they never truely became pure demons - by design!
This is concludes why and how. Now with Sargeras sealed, their Eredar hearts are able to reflect on their actions - they are no longer a soul under the constant pressure of Sargeras’ will. They have been given time to find themselves, no longer does the Arcane runes keep them swayed. Yet now, the fel in their veins that made them instruments of evil, grows stronger - and fast. They are becoming true demons! (tick tock, goes the clock)

Then you can keep the quest as is, the regret - introspection, the belief they have sinned. That they must repent. Not all Man’ari would come to the same conclusion, on this journey of self discovery. Yet, that some do - seems very plausible if not likely. That there will be those who seek to protect what little good is left within them works. Velen could be their key to bring the Light of Naruu within them, to secure this hold of their souls before it would be too late. Thus, they regained the connection to the light.
Also, you would have those Man’ari who chose to embrace the fel. Let their empathy and spark of good to be extinguished forever. Becoming great coming villains! Perhaps - some in their desperation, go 100% in to find Sargeras, to again feel the soothing pressure dampening their hearts; to deny the atrocity of their actions that they fear to face.
*** end of TLDR segment.

Created in 3min, a lot better than:
“Demons good now. Dont think about it.”

This lack of care from blizzard to at least try to work within the illusion of a framework, is soulcrushing.

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I think it honestly needn’t be.
We shouldn’t stop mentioning it as fans and Blizzard should not simply accept it as if it ‘happens’ and with ‘oh well’ mentality.

While I personally loathe the cosmic power chart and anything that has to do with Capital O ‘Order’, or ‘Void’, ‘Light’ etc… (as cosmic concepts to be explored and to be shoved down our throat, to be clear). It is at least an explanation for this lore contradiction.

I miss the times when the Titans were some monolithic and mysterious deities that ordered worlds and struggled against the demons who sought to destroy them in turn.
Now they are simply the minions of ‘ORDER’. Whatever that means.

A great post, worth the long read! I agree with pretty much everything you said, and wanted to add my own take to the mix.

One of my largest problems with World of Warcraft in its current state is the hard push for comedy. Now, by all means, a video game should have comedy in it. A fully serious game can only be so fun. But when you can’t go through a town or questline without a very obvious attempt at comedy, it becomes not only tiring, but waters down the lore its surrounded by.

—10.2 SPOILERS—

A recent example I saw was part of a questline concerning Vyranoth and the storm drakes. Ignoring the peculiar behaviour of Odyn enslaving the storm drakes, you read part of Vyranoth’s dialogue that is emotionally charged, she is furious that the dragons are being mistreated, as is expected from her character. But your responses to her dialogue are as follows:

  • I see…
  • You have no idea how long I have been waiting to punch Odyn in the face.
  • I just want to get some loot, lady.

You are talking to a theoretically very powerful Primal Incarnate, you are talking about a Titan Keeper who was once Prime Designate of Azeroth, and you are discussing the enslavement of dragons—why does it need to be silly? The clear, raw emotion in Vyranoth’s dialogue is immediately invalidated by the need to add quirky, funny dialogue, and it just ruins the moment. Any weight to the scenario is immediately squashed. (As per all PTR content, it is of course subject to change.)

—END OF SPOILERS—

My wish would be for World of Warcraft to, at the very least, take it itself seriously. I personally do not find fun in a setting that continuously makes fun of itself.

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