FEEDBACK: What Went Wrong? - An Attempt at Setting and Lore Analysis

This post may be edited few times to fix grammatical errors, typos or generally add anything I might have missed.

Hi everyone.

So I have recently listened to the Bellular video dubbed ‘what happened’. It somewhat inspired me to write this post, giving my own take on the setting. After years of endlessly ranting and getting depressed watching my once beloved franchise devolving rapidly and losing more of its identity with each patch released. I have figured that I would give a shot at analyzing the state of the game from a lore and setting perspective rather than a gameplay oriented one. Since I’m an RPer and have been in a community with hundreds of fellow rpers over the years I thought I will stick to my strengths and attempt to give words to my feelings about how and where exactly Warcraft went wrong (as skillfully depicted in that meme that has been making the rounds throughout the internet recently). I hope that someone up there from the Blizzard team might be able to read this post and pass it over to the team. Hopefully this post will not be dismissed as just another ‘hater’ or ‘doomer’ but rather be recognized for what it is; an earnest fan trying to salvage what’s left of his beloved setting.

So who am I?

I am a veteran Warcraft fan. A ‘Boomer’ if you will. I have been with the franchise since Warcraft III: Reign of Chaos through Vanilla and virtually all the expansions all the way until present day Dragonflight. Always had great faction pride as a Horde player. Been loving the Horde and stuck to it with very few and short breaks in between. I was not always an RPer. I started RPing earnestly only towards the end of BFA but I always held great passion for the setting, the story and the lore. In short, this analysis will be presented from the viewpoint of an oldschool Warcraft Horde fan that is somewhat invested in the setting and its lore.

What is wrong with the setting?

To break that question down I will divide it to seven main issues I have with the setting;

  1. Lack of ‘respect’ to the lore.
  2. Lack of ‘respect’ to the old lore more specifically.
  3. The deterioration of the ‘war’ in warcraft. - why is there no more conflict in my fantasy setting?
  4. The original identities of the factions and their collapse into meaninglessness.
  5. The loss of race flavor.
  6. The antagonists of Warcraft post BFA - why are the Primalists and the Jailer boring?
  7. The lack of attention to detail.

The Lack of ‘Respect’ to the Lore

It is no secret that there was player malcontent regarding the treatment of the Nazjatar patch and the N’zoth patch. Between those two consecutive patches the wow narrative burnt through not only one but two of massive locals and plot points.
Nazjatar was long teased to be the capital of the Naga empire under the waves - the naga have long been a force terrorizing the shores of Azeroth and beyond. N’zoth, the architect of so much of what went wrong on azeroth itself - from Deathwing to the Naga and more. Yet all we have to show for those plot points is in the former case, a small zone full of drowned ruins and several Naga buildings here and there. In the latter, a raid with several zones under attack. Gone is the promise of a Suramar-like experience of exploring the sunken empire of Azshara herself in all its glory. Gone is the promise of delving into the mysteries of the last Old God, and battling him head on throughout an expansion. Instead what we got is rushed content that burnt through the lore, presenting a husk of all the build up that promised so much over the years. And therefore comes the lack of respect. Not only that it came completely out of the blue in an expansion that promised to -fully- explore the faction war (which practically ended after the first major patch), it felt that the team did not have the respect necessary to dedicate time to build up these stories and wrap them up in a satisfying way. How would it feel if instead of Wrath of the Lich King we would have gotten a patch where we fought Arthas head on and utterly defeated him at the end of TBC?

As for the Night Warrior - the story felt great initially. The Night Elves tap into this forbidden magic that turns their ferocity up to eleven, delivering on the promise of their depiction in Warcraft III. We were told again and again that this power, as great as it was, did not come for free. There was a cost to be paid. That promise never came true. Instead, Tyrande received no downside to becoming a virtual demigod.
It cheapened the lesson and takeaway that she was supposed to get out of it. There was no character growth, not really. There was no sacrifice. There was no respect to the build up the team itself painstakingly kept reminding us of again and again and therefore there was no satisfaction. The audience were expected to believe that suddenly Tyrande realized that what she was doing was ‘bad’, as if she did not realize that from the moment she decided to take this power.
I’m digging at this point to essentially say; if Blizzard does not respect the decisions of their own characters and the lore they create, why should the players have any respect for them and be invested in those stories?

Lack of Respect to the Old Lore

Right I will try to keep it short because I feel the topic was spoken about ad nauseum. The old lore of the rise of the Scourge is what brought so many fans in initially. Shadowlands basically took that a story that is part of the very core of what Warcraft is and what players love and completely altered it in order to suit the current vision of those who were in charge of the narrative, forever spoiling it (actually the Jailer, the dude no one heard about ever, was the one that did everything and was in charge of everything. Ignore inconvenient paradoxes where the Jailer foiled himself in order to advance his plans etc.). Not only that, it shamelessly brought characters of old as cheap story hookups and ruined their legacy as well. (Hey remember that dude called Kael’thas Sunstrider? You can see him now! Isn’t that great? He feels really bad about all the decisions he made.). There really is no understating just how much damage Shadowlands caused to the integrity of the lore and the story.

This line of ‘out with the old and in the new’ (or as a specifically terrible sequel to another once beloved franchise called “Let the past die, kill it if you have to”) continues with many other anecdotes. There was one particular post explaining how the entire lore about demons and what it means to be a Demon Hunter was essentially forgotten for the sake of Eredar customization, I will post a link to it when I find it. For the purposes of this point however id like to speak about the Night Elf heritage quest. You know, that quest where a young (practically a child) Night Elf mage is chiding his older sister and one of the greatest mythical heroes of their people until she realizes her wrongful ways. To hell with millenia old traditions that were apparently there for no good reason. We are supposed to believe that the Night Elf civilization was just not enlightened enough. There was absolutely no reason to exile the High Elves. There was absolutely nothing meaningful and no sense in having females being the guardians of the night elven people. All it took to upend these traditions was the young elf that finally drove this point into Maiev.

Now I don’t think that races and cultures in the setting cannot or should not evolve over time especially around major traumatic events (such as the fall of Quel’thalas, the defeat of the Horde in the Second War, and indeed, the burning of Teldrassil) but such changes should be done delicately, with finesse and solid setting up of the lore. Having a young and anonymous nelf lecturing a mythical hero into submission is bad and, yes, disrespectful of old Night Elf lore. It makes people check out and lose interest immediately when their faction is treated in such a callous way. Overwritten by someone that seemingly has no care for their original depiction (that is, a brutal race led chiefly by female amazonian warriors that are aligned with nature and abhor magic).

The Deterioration of the ‘War’ in ‘Warcraft’ - Why Is There No More Conflict in My Fantasy Setting?

One of the core and most appealing parts about Warcraft as a setting was always the conflict and friction between the mortal races. Indeed we are also told again and again within the game itself that were there wasn’t conflict that would push the Horde and the Alliance to be strong, the world would never had a chance to stand against threats such as the Legion. Of course, that does not mean there always needs to be an active war between the factions. Historically most of the time was spent in some sort of a cold war vibe like in wow vanilla and TBC. There was always tension between the Alliance and the Horde with the occasional skirmish. All these tensions seemingly have been lost, forgotten. There is no respect to past grudges between the factions. More often than not it feels the game lectures the player who wonders ‘where are those tensions and why have they vanished?’ instead telling us to relax and simply have ice cream in Thaldraszus with our former bitter enemies in the opposite faction.

One such example is in the second major patch of BFA. When Lor’themar not only halts hostilities with Jaina, a murderer of many of his people (That by itself was understandable given the threat posed by Azshara at the time), he seems to actively befriend her. The PC goes as far as taking care of the bothersome Magister that was loyal to Sylvanas when he is tasked with saving Baine because Magister Hathorel was clinging to this very same grudge. Afterwards and very suddenly, gone was the bitterness from any Blood Elf character depicted regarding that specific event or any other.
The game clearly states that holding on to the so-called cycle of hatred is wrong and bad. From there on, Blood Elf characters have been depicted by the game, would get along with anyone and everyone. This goes further with the wedding of Lor’themar further cementing the ending of hostilities and cutting the cycle of hatred for good acting as if it was never there.

10.2 SPOILERS

In 10.2 there is an especially egregious example of this phenomenon where we have seen data mines of a dialogue between Shandris and Lilian Voss becoming awfully friendly and tension free. It seems that once again the game takes away the conflict and tension between the Forsaken and Night Elves after BFA that should by all means remain.

END OF SPOILERS

This all comes on top of comments by the Warcraft team that they intend to put faction conflict behind and on top of Dragonflight where there is virtually a complete peace between the factions. Everyone seems to be the best of friends. Gone is any hint of any past rivalry.

The reason why I point these very intentional shifts in narrative tone as a negative is because faction and race based conflict, drama and friction was always a core drawing part of the Warcraft setting. That is what gave the factions their identities. That is what created faction pride. That is what enabled character growth and rivalry between the player base. Indeed going back to Orcs vs Humans it is an inseparable part of the Warcraft DNA. So why are we doing away with it completely and utterly? Is it really necessary to throw in the bin what made Warcraft, Warcraft for so long and pursue after a new identity that may or may not work? I will add that as far as I can see it within my communities and circles at least, it definitely seems to be the case of the latter. Finally it completely invalidates the Horde and Alliance as concepts. Concepts that are virtually the single biggest pillar of Warcraft.

The Loss of Meaning in Factions and Loss of Faction Pride.

So what would actually be the original concept of the Horde and the Alliance?

The Alliance was created as a reaction to the original Hordes’ aggression. It was a necessary pact between kingdoms to fend off the monsters at the gate that were very real and very much a threat. Without the Alliance the individual kingdoms would have been easy pickings for the Horde to sack, ravage and conquer.

The second coming of the Horde was created in the aftermath of the Second War where first, the orcs, and then other races who joined, realized that under constant threat from the more established Alliance, they would not be allowed to exist on the world unless they banded together. It is a ragtag group of monsters and misfits fighting tooth and nail for survival in a world that hates them. Ensuring its mutual members’ freedom and survival wad what it meant to be part of the Horde.

As you probably have noticed, the reason that the Alliance and the Horde exist in the first place hinges on the other factions’ existence being a threat in the first place.
Why would the Blood Elves and Nightborne be part of the same faction as the undead and the other savage races that share nothing other than the will to survive with them? Why should the kingdoms of the Alliance band together and not focus on their own individual kingdoms and territories if there is no serious threat in the form of the Horde that may invade their territories?

Now that there is a complete peace, why can’t a Draenei visit Orgrimmar? Why shouldn’t a Blood Elf be able to visit Stormwind?

As it stands now, the factions as a concept completely falls apart. That is, one of the centerpiece concepts of Warcraft as a setting. People love their factions, they love the rivalry and they love the tension. They loved shouting for the Alliance or for the Horde in blizzcons. Those battlecries were replaced with ‘For Azeroth’ which is unsurprisingly unpopular and treated as completely cringeworthy by the community. Practically doing away with the factions just further diminishes Warcraft as a unique setting for new players and alienates lifelong fans that have been along for the ride since forever.
To add a personal opinion, I do think that if Blizzard did away with the factions completely and focused on a race based narrative with its own struggles and conflicts, it would have been great in its own sense, a return to Warcraft 3 style of storytelling if you will. Ultimately, however, it is a wish that is completely unrealistic with the number of playable races that would require specific attention in this game. Therefore we are doomed to remain in a state of limbo in belonging to factions that by all accounts have no reason to even exist anymore by Blizzard’s own design. Instead of having interesting ‘mortal’ rivalries and conflicts between fellow players which plays off of itself (since we naturally can never really defeat the other faction), we play a whack a mole with the latest newest cosmic threat to the planet.

The loss of race flavor -

One of the things players and I have enjoyed the most about Warcraft is the unique fantastical races featured, complete with their own culture and vibe.
Unfortunately it appears to me that in the name of diversity, or appealing to samey basic moral values, those cultures have been erased into inconsequential ways. Making the different races completely bland and samey.

I have already talked about in the post how the Night Elves went from a unique magic-hating nature aligned race led by amazonian warriors to now suddenly being very inclusive of males in the ranks of their sentinels and embracing mages to boot. Making them not very different from any other race with the added flavor of elune and druidism.

In the latest Tyr quest we see a Zandalari, a Blood Elf and a Draenei likewise shouting with zeal ‘For Tyr’. Seemingly ignoring that at least 2 of those 3 have a vastly culturally different approach to serving the Light then the basic Tyr focused Human style. It seems that in the name of making Tyr’s Guardians more diverse, once more, characters were stripped of their unique fantasy culture and were delegated to simply being other Human characters in different colors and sizes.

The Blood Elves, where they were once a unique faction of Elves trying to survive by any means necessary, and did not shy from darker methods to ensure that survival, just became in modern day and age a race of Humans with sharp ears and glowy eyes. Any flavor they once had was stripped away. Even the way they worship the Light was stripped of any nuance and was written to be identical to Humans or even Draeneis.
Adding salt to injury, the Void Elves who ironically seem to be closer in concept to the original Blood Elves then the Blood Elves themselves were shipped off to the Alliance where their dark inclinations seems to have no serious consequence at all beyond the exposition players were given. The High Elves of the faction who were just yesterday disgusted with their kins’ methods in Silvermoon have embraced the Void Elves’ even darker methods unquestionably. At this point it seems that once more the Void Elves are just another Human race coming in different color pallets.

The list goes on and on but the gist is that with every patch more of our beloved races with their unique cultures and different values become more and more just another race of Stormwind Humans. Identical in values, sensibilities and culture. Stripped of everything that made them unique. It takes away from the setting. Makes everything more boring, denies interesting conflicts born out of cultural clashes and generally has a samey vibe. It is reducing the choice of races within the setting to purely cosmetic customization. No longer will new players fall in love with a race that is drastically unique in its presentation and immerse themselves in what it means to play as one. I can confidently say that at least from an RP community perspective there is nothing that kills and is killing that community more than this point and the loss of factions.

Likewise, while I can say that we all adore new customizations, there IS such a thing as too much customization, especially ones that clash with race and faction flavor

Along with the aforementioned Void Elves, I would point out that likewise making Darkfallen on the Alliance and Eredar customization available makes no sense at all.
You cheapen what it means to be a Draenei and how much their race is tied to having been persecuted by their red brethren, eternally on the run. You likewise dilute just how much the Alliance suffered at the hands of Darkfallen specifically. Not to speak of its original depiction of distaste towards undeath (one that led them to deny the Forsaken in the first place). Why betray those concepts and introduce those customizations when you can add ones that add to the fantasy of the faction and races?
I remember a quote of a friend saying that the feeling is that the lore and integrity of the setting has been prostitutionized for the sake of trending among Twitter accounts. It might be hyperbolic, sure, but the issue with that strategy is that while on the short term it generates hype, on the long term it creates massive setting and flavor problems that eventually turns people off when they cannot immerse themselves in the fantastical world that you have built in any capacity.

The Antagonists of Warcraft Post BFA

It is no secret why the Jailer as antagonist did not work. I’m here to explain why the Primalists don’t work.

Over the many years that warcraft existed the players had many big enemies that lurked in the background and were a constant threat in the world in one way or another.

The rival faction, Demons and the Legion, Old Gods and their cultists and the Scourge and the Cult of the Damned to name the big ones. All those factions were built over many years and were out there in the world for us to encounter their operations and presence. Slowly over the years they built up to crescendos. Some were more successful than others as mentioned earlier, but what is always true is that they were all beloved by the player base and hyped them up when they appeared on screen. We all knew what they are capable of doing and what they represent. We also understood their philosophies to varying degrees. The Legion wanted to destroy the world and promised power and status to the mortals who serve them. Sometimes, tricking entire races into servitude all for the sake of their burning crusade. The Scourge wanted to scour life from everything. Mindlessly following the Lich King in his quest to ‘perfect’ the world as he sees it, raising our fallen heroes against us. The old gods wanted to take over the world and transform it to an ideal vision of their black empire in all its wriggling glory and likewise those who followed them believed they were ushering a paradise, driven to madness by their unfathomable presence and whispers. Finally the factions competed for resources and territory or simply encroached against one another out of spite in an all too mortal way, driven by hatred, grudges and fear.

All those variations were built over time and held depth. Their motivations and consequences should they succeed are painfully clear.

So what about the primalists?

We never heard of them. Why did they pop up just now? Why do they suddenly have issues with titanic design? Why other shamans and those who are connected to the elements never had issues with it? Why are they fighting their own people? How did they even know about the proto dragons being imprisoned on the Dragon Isles? Why didn’t we? What are the consequences should they succeed?

We don’t have a solid answer to any of these questions. All we know is that they like the elements and hate the titans for some reason and are willing to kill and die, their own kin if need be, to see their cause, which we don’t really understand, through. They came out of nowhere and they are going nowhere. With the druids of the flame and their urge to return to immortality we finally get a hint of a reason why -they specifically- would join. But it is too little and too late. The primalists are completely superficial. They exist so we have something to kill. Nothing about them drives player hype or feel like they should be stood up against. Not only that, there doesn’t seem to be an effort to build any other threats in the background at all. So inevitably, it would appear that either we will stick with the bland primalists some more or begin to confront the cosmic void.
The only effort to further sow the seeds of future enemies are few esoteric hints spread far apart here and there (see Xal’atath cameo and Mag’har questline). Those hints cannot and do not replace actual presence in the game world. Inevitably that condemns every future adversary to likewise feel as if it came out of the blue and incredibly shallow. It is something that Blizzard has to correct. Without something exciting to struggle against, why bother to struggle at all? The game cycle is removed once again from flavor and is seen for its stale mechanics.

Attention to Detail

This point may seem negligent to most but it goes a -long- way into immersing players into the setting and making them buy into it wholesale.

Recently there was a Blood Knight quest giver added to the game to provide Horde players with access to the Draenei Eredar quest. The NPC had green eyes, contrary to how Blood Knights were depicted in modern times and was from the Shattered Sun offensive. A faction we haven’t heard a single thing about ever since TBC ended. Why was the Blood Knight from a dead faction and not from the Blood Knight order? Why did he have green eyes? Shouldn’t he be devoted tk the Light to wield it? Isn’t devoting oneself to the Light get you golden eyes? Honestly, it was probably an oversight by the person who added the NPC that didn’t think too hard about those details. Similarly in Tranquilien in a recently added Blood Elf quest that saw them taking the fight to Deatholme (again) all the Forsaken NPCs were gone. Why were they gone. Where did they go? Nothing was explained. Every issue by itself is not a big deal, honestly. But combined they create a feeling of carelessness from the game’s creators. And if the game’s creators don’t particularly care for details of their world, why should we? Again it is yet another point that detaches players from the setting

To summarize;

There is a widespread feeling that the game’s lore doesn’t take itself seriously. That there is a general lack of respect to what has been and what brought players to this game in the first place. It seems that in the name of modern sentiments the uniqueness and seemingly imperfect aspects of the many races’ cultures have been ironed out and been made bland. Finally, there is no antagonist that makes people excited. All those factors make players detach from the setting and its lore, and in turn make them less invested and leave the game. A problem that is as bad as any mechanical issue in the gameplay loop. My roleplay community has been dying for a long time and it seems that indeed the realm itself is in its death throes. And when the roleplayers are gone, those most invested and in love with the setting, others will follow in their footsteps soon after.

I write this post not to be a doomer or a hater but rather to alert you to what is going on in your player communities. At the end of the day we all believe that Warcraft as a setting has what it takes to be an awesome and cool setting and want to see it live to its full potential, otherwise we would just not bother.

Thank you for reading!

27 Likes

What went wrong is the same thing that always goes wrong when a fantasy universe is expanded upon over the course of decades, by multible generations of writers. The original creators of the warcraft universe are no longer working on it, and others have to keep the narrative going. Imagine if Stephen Fry were asked to write the next Harry Potter book, he read them all, so he should have no problem writing the next one right? wrong. Writing is a art form and one persons vision can not be transfered to another.

The problem is the game needs a ongoing narrative, to continue development. Imagine if they made a expansion with no story, just a bunch of random zones and dungeons with no story behind them, no theme for the art designers to work with. It would be extremely dull.

I agree 100% that the lore of this game has completely gone off the rails, but what is the alternative?

4 Likes

You summed up things well.

  1. 100% agree.
  2. ye
  3. and 4. indeed I wish they at least keep the tensions. The cross faction play is definitely from the lack of playerbase, and the PC (player character) is pretty much some kind of societal elite anyway.
  4. Agree, I hate humanification of races. For some sake of diversity they just make everything less diverse actually. However, it’s true that we see mostly individuals, who can do what they want. The Nelf heritage was a disaster I agree with that, but…

The Eredar and the Darkfallen aren’t said to join the Alliance in their questlines and they didn’t even got NPCs freely roaming in the cities. This xpac was adding flavour NPCs to cities so they could include few of these if they wanted, they didn’t. Instead they actually bothered adding Ally of Arzaal NPCs on Argus, a dead zone nobody cares about and even make the stealthing. Beside that, one hooded guy hiding in the darkest corner of the Exodar. This is clear - no demons and undead in the Alliance. Any demon and Darkfallen would be obliterated on sight, just as Metzen said in 2010, even the new warlock trainers were thrown into dark dirty holes, and that is last patch. These customisations are purely a flavour + fan service things but their integration haven’t damaged the setting… much. What gameplay allows is not always fine with the lore, in fact these two worlds are geting more and more far from each other. I mean in gameplay a PC Maghar orc can fight the Iron Horde and become Order Hall leader while it is obviously impossible in the lore. I’m telling this as someone who wants to roleplay the penitent Eredar. Velen haven’t decreed a thing, nor did any other Alliance leader, my character would be sent right back to Twisting Nether in any city the moment she would turn out to be a demon. Sometimes even we players should pay attention to detail :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye:
6. Agree.
7. Agree.

PS: I think roleplay on Argent Dawn is done for yet, I have joined in May and I have fun :smiley:

While you are not wrong, I think that the fact that the lore doesnt go out of the way to explain why the customizations that should not be availalble to the Alliance are available to the Alliance are all the more reason why said customizations should -not- be available to the players in the first place. Like I said, its one of those cases that having those options is worse for the setting in the long run vs the benefit and hype in the short run.

I mean, there is a reason why they brought back Chris Metzen specifically for World of Warcraft as Narrative Advisor.

4 Likes

I do believe we all agree that blizzard gave up on lore consistency. Be it behavioural, cultural, mechanicaly or events.

You also got the problem of ingame vs lore crashing. The Man’Ari Eredar is a great example. If Man’Ari are not supposed to be roaming about as part of the Alliance, then why the customisation to do so? It will only help broaden the gap between lore geeks and players. The Lore says “no demons in stormwind!” while the player is walking around, as a Man’Ari, demonhunters zooming about - not careing, Warlocks and their demons running around. If they wanted the world to have anti-demon tendecies, it would have been strengthened with NPCs reacting. Not loosened, by now players being Demons themselves.

This huge divide creates a disconnect between the two so wide, that it often crashes into emotional territory. Because, one side must deny the other. Either you accept that what you see in game is not lore, it is pointless. Or you accept that the lore is pointless, that the game ignores it.

Sure, Man’ari is only one example. But it goes to everything. From the Shadowlands litteraly proving there is an afterlife and even how it functions, why is noone reacting to it? Lore nerds will say 'because that experience has not be shared, blah, blah" - while the players just sit there wondering… why does noone care?

WoW and Lore must be bridged if you want the people in general to care about either. Now add all you talked about in depth, there is indeed a reason why noone cares about WoW and its lore.

Gameplay and Lore must be as close to one as possible.

2 Likes

I agree with a lot of what you wrote. Regarding the faction conflict, I’m rather torn. They’ve done so much flipflopping there, at some point it lost its impact and it just got tiresome to fight each other, fight big threat together, fight each other, fight big threat together etc. I agree tho in that that has undermined the sense of identity of the two factions, I think they need to make some decisions on how to proceed with that.

I think for me the main offender is that there regularly is no actual logical reasoning when it comes to motivations and drive of the characters in their stories. The resolutions often seem rather childlike, they lack the nuance and depth of mature reasoning, includings its flaws, bitterness, animosity, desire for vengeance and such. Stories have a habit of skimming over this, or skipping it (almost) entirely, or only letting it breathe for about 5 seconds before going: ok forgiveness is good, let’s do that!

This hasn’t always been the case, and I think this setting needs that kind of grittiness and darkness at times to give stories their proper gravity. This would allow the lighter sides to blossom too, instead of it all being rather light and whimsical even if technically storywise it really isn’t. That creates a weird dissonance.

I’m not sure what to wish for. Their attempts at morally gray, interesting characters like with Sylvanas have been bonkers. Their attempts at good, humble, wonderful guys have made me nearly wish for the return of Garrosh (and I really did not like him lol). I don’t know, I’d like quite a few characters to have a bit more bite to them, and the same goes for the stories.

Tension and friction is ok. Embrace it Blizzard! Something like that :wink:

2 Likes

Exactly. Like I mentioned, a full blown and open faction war doesnt need be. But general friction, tension, skirmishing and lingering conflict between races and factions goes a long way.

Concrete foundations of the lore, which have been poured during RTS part of WC can only to hold certain number of floors, or shall i say certain number of stories, and that limit has been reached.

WoW 2 with settings in the future is the way to go. (not Starcraft kind of future, just a little bit into the future)

Man honestly if you can put it on YouTube id listen to this,but this is a bit much (:

Personally I’ve always had the feeling they ran out of steam somewhat after Wrath. We’ve had some good expansions after, I don’t mean the game has been terrible ever since, but it’s as if the cohesity of the setting got more problematic after that. It has always struck me as a ‘ok, what theme can we throw at m now? Anyone ideas? Halp!’ sorta thing.

There are plenty of stories to dig into. But tying it all neatly together where everything still feels connected may have been an issue. This may be just my impression tho :slight_smile:

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I do not think that wow2 is necessary. In fact, time skips can (and specifically have, in the case of DF) happen. MMOs CAN develop solid characters, factions and memorable villians. It doesnt take much to look for existing examples in the market. Blizzard has the material they need. They just need writers to do justice to their setting.

2 Likes

Time skips only works if the time gap is treated with respect. I honestly doubt, with what I have seen so far with blizzard and lore. That they would even spend 30min discussion how all the factions, enviroments and balling-events would interact. At best, we would have a ‘A happened’, never answering how that inpacted B to X. Ripple effects would be too large.

We simply would be plomped into a place so disconnected and disjointed from what was - that we just give 0 frikks about anything new.

Solution then, to skip so far ahead that the legacy left behind is now myth. An open new world based on the old one, yet with stories no longer bound to… wait, we got timeless beings and systems. Death works outside time and space. So does the Bronze dragonfight… Ok, lets ignore all that. Easy, just ignore things - that is the goal and why we are doing this. Your player characters are now new ones, new adventures, not burdened by the past…

It would be WoW.v2, with no connections - but the vague hints of nostalgia bait, spread around.

I sincerely doubt they can save the future of WoW and its IP, by ignoring the past even further, and just skipping ahead to try escape the mess left behind.

They first need to make us care about what is, before they can take the leap of faith to make us care about things to come.

When players wonder, “how will this world be in 100 years, I really want to see it!” that is the time to skip. Not when players think “I won’t care about this world or what will happen within the day.”

2 Likes

You are not wrong and I agree, they even couse unnecessary drama in RP aswell and Blizzard is simply throwing cheap fan service at us, which will indeed not help in the long run. Hell, when I started to write my Man’ari and checked and talked about demon lore I just realized how dull the qestline, about which I tought is at least servicable, actually is and came with more realistic idea which I in the used in my character.
But if they are throwing cheap fun service, they could at least give us barber mount/toy so I dont need to OOC travel to one everytime I want to switch on or off my character’s disguise.

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Love, you could’ve reduced that essay to

really. Because it all comes down to this. And I’m not only speaking about lack of attention for detail regarding lore but also quest design, reward design and community behaviour.

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Gameplay.

The Alliance had been bleeding players for multiple expansions and were on the verge on going extinct at the end of the Shadowlands. In S3/S4 of SL they had less than 10% the players of the Horde.*

There really was only one solution and that was to let the factions play together. And it did work to some extent. The Alliance has seen a rise in population due to a number of people who were forced to be on team red were now able to go back to the Alliance and still be able to participate in high end content.

Of course, there is a reason why the Alliance nearly died in the first place. But that’s a tangent i am not sure is fit for this thread.

*Hardcore playerbase. Not sure about overall numbers. But Blizzard did say the situation was “dire”.

The faction war thing has continuously fallen flat and has been very unpopular with the non-PvPers for a very long time. So there was that too.

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Man that was a long read, but necessary. I used to be a hardcore horde fangirl for years, and I ended up switching to Alliance because I felt like the Horde was losing its glow and eventually the Alliance became the underdog story-wise. All important characters either die or become neutral, leaving Alliance pride in shambles and I felt like some kind of a need to root for the underdog :smiley:

Anyway.

I do hope that Blizz reads this and takes it to heart. I agreed on every point and I’m sad that I did.

The Nelf heritage quest was one thing. Holy cow I hated it so much. I recall getting up from my chair to vent out my frustrations to my spouse.

Then there was the Tyrande vs. Nathanos beef. The fact that yes, she dipped into the dangerous powers and got no feedback/consequences/paid no price for it was one thing… but also, the fact that the original clip had Nathanos just being THAT GOOD AND COOL AND AWESOME that even Tyrande buffed up to a literal demigod was not good enough to take out a self-insert character. That was very disrespectful towards the story. They did go and fix it eventually to have Nathanos be ‘buffed’ by the val’kyr to be able to stand up to her, but it was too little, too late. It was just garbage.

Don’t get me started on the Green Dragonflight :smiley: They killed Ysera, just to bring her back, so that she can vanish again to have her daughter take over? That felt… so unnecessary.

Ugh. Please, Blizz. Don’t water things down. Don’t make everyone a generic (human?) toon with a different skintone. Keep the faction prides, keep the race pride. Keep the war alive. We don’t need factions to be separate, let people play together (we don’t have the community to sustain 2 factions), but … make the story make sense. Have the cold war vibes return. Make it WARcraft again.

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I think that you can do away with it from a mechanically gameplay way like they did but without practically doing away with it from a setting and lore perspective the way they did really.

You have a point, however, surely it is possible to continue the narrative without competely rewriting its history and destroying its pillars. Surely it is possible to build compelling antagonists without reusing the old trodden ones. Its possible to write an expansion where the primalists (and 1 plot b antagonist for future narrative) are engaing and interesting, where there are personal stakes involved.
I think it is wrong to assume it is impossible to develop characters and antagonists that are as compelling as the RTS ones.

This is certainly true of BFA and SL.
Burning the Tree was a real jump the shark moment for the franchise. It was done to be cool and with little regard for how it would impact the game, the lore, the players going forward.

This one I don’t really get, I’ve seen others saying similar things but I still don’t really get it.
Outside of BFA the Faction War was barely a thing.

In Wrath the only time I had any real engagement with the opposite faction was Wintergrasp. With was a fun easy going type PVP (probably my last time actully bothering with PVP).

We are not really at peace even if the war isn’t raging full tilt just now. You can’t go to the enemy cities or camps. Genn is still very angry about the attacks on his lands.

The Faction War is up to your Head Canon to be what you want it to be.

Not sure this was ever done particularly well for a lot of races. As a Draenei I’ve never had much by way of lore apart from in WoD and some Legion on Argus.
They’ve done some good things with Heritage Armour quest lines and could do more on this.
Some races got more love than others. Night Elves and Orcs have had a far bit done about them.

The Jailor was terrible.
Not sure about the primal incarnates, they’ve not done a great job with that story but then I’m dungeon locked on the Tyr story, renown gated on the dragonscale story and probably missed some other quests here and there.

I agree.
They left the Order Halls in limbo. I think I might still be the head of the Earthen Ring but I’ve not been to my Order Hall in years.
These Orders should be doing stuff right now (especially the Earthen Ring given how the elements are so heavily involved).
There is still a big sword stuck in Silithus.
Where is Jaina just now? Or Thrall? or a bunch of other lore characers that should be around in every expansion.

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