Is he just pulling our leg? it should be simple.
a heating up proc means nothing to us when we dont have any charges on fireblast, you just cast a fireball and hope it crits, if it does (which it does about 40% of the time) you just gained a free hot streak, if it doesnt you lost nothing because you dont have a fireblast ready anyway.
Sometimes i just chain fireballs even if i have a fireblast ready, because i have either a rune of power, combustion or a meteor coming soon and i can stack those blaster masters for them. a single fireblast or heating up proc means very little when you dont have any cooldowns, fire is one of the worst damage dealers outside of cooldowns anyway.
It’s only simple when you know the answer, which I didn’t, hence I asked.
If there were 2.5 seconds left on Fire Blast cd when you cast it, you gained roughly 1/1.8 of a Fireball’s worth of damage (since the alternative was to delay your Fireball cast for a second, so that Fire Blast came off cd before the cast finished) but lost a Hot Streak so technically it’s not true that you lost nothing: you lost the difference in damage between a Hot Streak and 1/1.8 of a Fireball. Of course you do have to account for the possibilty that the Fireball crits as you said, so we have the average expected damage gained from delaying the Fireball cast (at 2.5 seconds left on fb cd with Heating Up proc) as approximately 0.6 * (Hot Streak - 1/1.8 * Fireball) - 0.4 * Hot Streak, which I can’t be bothered to work out ha. Anyway even if this is a positive number, I’m not saying this makes it worth trying to do because a) as Papudeath said, it may just be more trouble than it’s worth and result in loss of damage due to making things too complicated and b) as you said, the damage gained might not amount to much even if it is realistic to implement.
Anyway, thanks for the clarification. It’s helped my understanding to have this conversation, even if tempers have flared up a bit at times and there have also been some amusing points. Maybe it was just an excuse to do some quick maff.
Ok lets put it this way, lets say you wait 1 second to cast your fireball to get a heating up proc.
you spend your only fireblast and fire off a fireball and a pyro at the same time, 1 of them crits (which happens quite often). You are now in the same situation you started from and have to choose to either cast a fireball or wait 4 seconds to get another fireblast, what do you do?
Hold up. My Fire Blast cd is 8.2 seconds, so I would have to wait nearly 8 seconds to get a another Fire Blast, right? Now if you’re asking me what I’d do in this situation, I understand I ought to carry on spamming Fireballs as normal and having looked at the math a bit, that seems legit, even moreso when it’s nearly 8 seconds we’re talking about. I was focusing before just on the case where we have say 3 seconds or less until fb is back up (but more than 1.8 seconds of course).
As fire mage you never stop spamming fireballs, never, you just add fire blast which can be casted while another spell is already casted and pyroblasts at the end of fireball, nothing more about fire mage rotation outside of burst. If someone can’t understand using 3 buttons 80% of the time then he is just dumb.
- Rule: abc
Always be casting
And what you can do in the situation is to use counterspell and then start casting fireball. If counterspell triggers lucid minor your fireblast will be ready inside the fireball casttime. If not, just keep spammimg fireball til next crit.
Cmon bro this conversation is a little more advanced than knowing that Fire Blast is off the gcd. At least read the post before replying if you’re gonna reply, or if you did read it, come up with a more useful response than this or just don’t even bother.
My question wasn’t ‘How many buttons should I use what % of the time?’ though really, was it? My question was about a specific scenario that can arise and whether or not this affects the standard rotation: namely whether or not to carry on casting Fireballs if one has a Heating Up proc, 0 fb charges and say 3 seconds left on fb cd. Your comment is facile, irrelevant, unhelpful and unnecessarily rude. I know there are some people who think it’s cool to be rude like this, but it really isn’t. Furthermore it ought to be clear from my previous replies that my issue was never a failure to understand the concept of the rotation I was being presented with, which is as you say perfectly straight forward. If anything sounds dumb here, it’s your reply rather than anything I’ve said. The weird, needless rudeness actually makes me wonder if you’re a previous respondent to this or another of my posts who’s been upset by a reply I made to them.
Interesting point although I’m not running Lucid as a minor.
Ofc not , you run it as major (hopefully).
And guess what, the major you re running does both effects. And the minor can be triggered with counterspell.
Oh ok well thanks for the info. Is that the same for all essences i.e. if you take an essence as a major do you also get the minor thrown in for free?
Yes ofc its the same for all essences and its basic knowledge.
No offense, but you’re claiming to do an advanced discussion but you don’t. 80% of the questions you ask can be answered by basic knowledge and logic.
The question from this thread as well. If you tried logic, you should’ve come to Parzas conclusion:
Ok lets put it this way, lets say you wait 1 second to cast your fireball to get a heating up proc.
you spend your only fireblast and fire off a fireball and a pyro at the same time, 1 of them crits (which happens quite often). You are now in the same situation you started from and have to choose to either cast a fireball or wait 4 seconds to get another fireblast, what do you do?
You should work on basic understanding and basic rotation. This will boost your dps 1000000000times more than overthinking things that should be obvious. So i kind of understand why some ppl are answering harsh.
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Where did you pick up this basic knowledge: from reading a guide? I don’t read much.
Actually I didn’t claim it was an advanced discussion. I claimed it was more advanced than knowing that Fire Blast is off the gcd. The latter doesn’t necessarily imply the former.
I already responded to this and stated my conclusions.
Well if we’re talking about what I should do, that’s a different conversation entirely, but I was just curious about the issue so I asked a question. If people don’t think I should be talking about it they’re right: we shouldn’t be talking about games at all but rather doing something constructive, but I chose to play games instead and simply wanted to know the answer to the question I didn’t know. I really don’t think the added grumbling from people is helpful: just provide a courteous answer to my question if you want to and don’t if you don’t. Is that so much to ask? What is grumbling achieving? I don’t remember asking in my post anywhere for people’s opinions on whether or not I should be asking the question and whether or not I should already know it, so why are they telling me this? It’s irrelevant to me what you think about these things, although I’m happy to answer any polite questions you have on these matters. If you don’t think it’s worth talking about, then just don’t reply: simple. If talking about it is tedious, just don’t talk about it. You don’t need to try and have a go at me because I choose to talk about it more than you want to: I’m not forcing anyone to talk about it and it’s ok if you don’t reply: it’s really no big deal. I understand these things can play on one’s mind and disturb one if one allows them to but the good news is we can let go.
I just don’t understand the mindset of people who go to read a perfectly courteous forum question and then start criticizing the OP for not having already known/worked out the answer. I just wouldn’t dream of doing that. I like answering people’s questions if I know the answer or sharing my opinions if I’m not 100% sure because I like to help people so it it wouldn’t cross my mind to start attacking them. In fact I never feel like people should already know things in the first place. Why would I? Some people haven’t sat down to read everything or think everything through so there are some gaps in there knowledge. Who am I to tell them they should have read or thought about it more? One of the very purposes these forums are here is to help people find out about the game and now you’re telling people ‘No don’t come here and ask you should know it already.’ Well I didn’t know it already so deal with it. It’s way easier just to ask on the forum rather than spending time thinking about stuff and reading guides. All this said I do accept that it’s worth working on basic rotation and understanding so I’m not saying it’s not helpful to read guides, but I don’t agree that this means I shouldn’t ask about the question I asked for any other reason than the argument that I should rather be doing something more constructive than playing and/or discussing computer games.
The thing is you were given an answer 20 day ago and not just 1 answer, you got 3 of the same stuff and yet the thread is still going.
And the fact that there is this weird mist of ignorance/trolling floating around isnt helping. This stuff really has been obvious since the dawn of time and the essence thing became obvious on the first day of the patch, no guides needed.
You could have just said “ok got it, thanks for the answers guys”. but YOU started to criticize the answers, you also talk about people letting it go, but you arent letting it go either, you got your answers, what more do you want?
And this is why i used the word trolling.
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Your answer was rude and didn’t even convince me that you understood my question. It later became clear that you didn’t, as I explained already.
Papudeath’s answer was clear and he’d obviously understood the question at least.
Bradinoo’s answer also didn’t even convince me that he understood what was getting at, so I clarified my question to him in my response.
There you go with the rudeness again. That’s what got you into trouble in the first place. You should really stop it. Also I’ve explained this already: it’s far easier to ask on a forum than trawl through guides which may not even address the question or try to do the math myself. I was in a situation where I didn’t know the answer to the question, so I asked on a forum and one of the very purposes the forum exists is so that players who don’t understand something in the game can ask for clarification, so there’s no problem with my having asked.
No, as I told you already, it really hasn’t been obvious to me, else why would I have asked about it?
That would have been lying though, as I made clear in my numerous responses.
… but it was YOU who started with the criticism:
If you can’t take criticism, don’t give it.
Also, I criticised answers which were either rude or demonstrated that the person asking hadn’t understood my question, or both. There may also have been answers I criticised for reasons other than these. In the first case this was just the natural thing to do when someone is rude to you and there’s nothing wrong with that. Also it doesn’t make sense to say something about which someone has just asked a question on a forum is obvious, else they obviously wouldn’t ask it, so I wanted to bounce that back at you and I see nothing wrong in this ether. My criticisms were all either defences of statements I’d made which had been unfairly criticised by one or more people or perfectly justified criticisms of responses that demonstrated a lack of understanding or clarity. I also made responses which weren’t criticisms at all, such as explaining my position further, expressing the thoughts I’d had about the issue I posted about or something which followed on from something in the discussion that had developed as a result of reading their responses and thanking people for helpful information.
I wasn’t saying anyone should let anything go: I said that if anyone was finding it tedious and it was playing on their mind, then they could let it go. As I explained, what I was saying here was that people were free to reply or not to reply as they wished and that I wasn’t forcing anyone to reply: not that people should all let it go, no matter what.
Well whilst I know the answer to the question ‘Do peopIe ever stop casting Fireballs for the reason i said?’ I must say that I still wonder whether it would increase dps to stop casting in the 3 second case, leaving aside the issue of whether or not it would result in a dps loss because of bringing awkwardness to the rotation, even if that dps increase isn’t much, which is a different question to which I’m not sure I do yet have the answer. I mean it seems to me that it would increase the dps, so what I mean is I haven’t yet seen anyone express agreement with this, as far as I’m aware.
As for what more I want, first of all I didn’t get all my answers: the question I just mentioned still remains, but what more I want than the answer to this second question is courtesy, for people not to harass me and be rude to me for asking questions on forums which exist for purposes which include the clarification of aspects of the game people don’t understand or because I dare to challenge their (in one case at least) flawed, rude responses and a place in heaven.
Holy crap, im not being rude, im being honest, but sadly i cant affect how you interpret what i say, offence is not given, it is taken.
my first responce was correct and the other 2 simply agreed with it, they are not different.
The second part where you call me rude is again honesty, im explaining why the you are getting all these responses with this tone in them, its frustrating to get these points across when you fight them at every point and argue that we dont understand the questions or just dismiss the answers as “rude”.
If the answers we have given dont please you, go TEST IT, prove us wrong.
There is nothing more i can give you, if you are looking for the results of 10 hours of research in the form of simplified videos and spreadsheets then you are out of luck, i dont think anyone here will be willing to do it for you when the answer and the whole thread can be boiled down to.
“Should i wait with my fireball to get a hotstreak with a fireblast when i dont have a fireblast ready?”
“no, never stop casting”
“ok”
im done and for your own sake i hope you are too.
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Look I understand if you don’t want to spend lots of time on this, but to say ‘obviously you do this’ when someone asks a question is condescending and thus rude. It also doesn’t make actually make sense, for the reason I already explained. You did not understand my question for the reason I already explained (go and read my reply to your second post if you don’t see why: I’m not going to explain it again). I’m not dismissing answers as rude. I acknowledge your answers. It’s the inclusion of words such as ‘obviously’ and ‘weird’ that is rude. I’m not seeking answers that please me, except in the case of answers that include rudeness, since this isn’t pleasing, so I’m not asking for answers that include rudeness. I was simply talking about my thoughts about the questions and answer/s discussed. I’m not seeking the results of 10 hours of research. I don’t see how my questions would require that.
Yeah I got that part. As I said, if that’s all you want to say, that’s fine. My issues with your replies never included that I felt you weren’t willing to spend enough time on it. You don’t have to spend any more time on it than you wish to, but if you choose not to spend more time on it, that doesn’t give you the right to start mocking me, being rude to me or complaining that I’m spending too much time on it and/or not just accepting your answer and going away, but rather going into greater detail.
When you are done is your decision. When I am done is mine. I mean if I follow your reasoning here, which is actually correct, then I wouldn’t ever play or talk about the details of computer games again, but since I have continued to play them, which was a bad decision, I’ve also decided to discuss them in detail.
By the way, noone has responded to the fact that my Fire Blast has an 8.2 second CD. I was told by Verdill it has a 5 second cd and you also appeared to imply it is a lot less than 8.2 seconds. Now people don’t have to respond, but I’m just pointing out there has been more to the discussion than just the initial question, which you say I should just accept the answer to and go away, but I am also interested in other details.
Ok let me put it this way.
-
This mechanic does exist for quite a time and many good mage theorycrafters are discussing and simming lots of those questions
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Fireblast cd scales with haste. So with lust, iris minor buff etc. The cd will always be shorter.
-
Liquid dream minor shortens the cds as well.
-
Most important conclusion and most important point in every good mage guide:
ABC - ALWAYS BE CASTING.
So just take it. Dont question it anymore. Just take it.
Ok well thanks for that. The fact that I’ve questioned it doesn’t mean I can’t just go with the ABC advice, even if I’m still not 100% sure. I can do that. It was just a matter of interest. Maybe sometimes I have asked too many questions in life in general but at the same time I think it’s sort of natural to ask questions and be curious in life. There does come a point where we have to let go though, of course and just ‘go with the flow.’ It seems that any damage boost would be so low anyway, that it does make the question fairly trivial I suppose.
It would be a damage LOSS.
Millions of iterations of testssamples with different action priority lists are made with every classchange. So if it would be a gain, it would be common knowledge.
Have you ever heard about altered time and their work for the mage community?
And as i said before. You could boost your damage with getting to know magebasics, practise it and just play the rotation w/o too many mistakes and gearing right as well.
2/3 of your essences are not optimal.
2/3 of your azerite pieces are not optimal.
I wonder why you dont start questioning that. Getting this fixed only could improve your dps by a LOT.
be me
click to view your profile
see running incanters flow
pepelaugh
Heard of PvP? lol.
Yes.
On the essence front, my major and Worldvein Resonance were the top combo on Bloodmallet and Icy Veins, so you’re telling me this info is wrong? As for Condensed Lifeforce, I thought it might be better than the other minor recommended on Bloodmallet (Crucible of Flame), since it’s instant damage which I thought might be better than the dot from CoF in PvP, which is my main interest. The other minor that is said to be better on Bloodmallet (Essence of the Focusing Iris) might be better in PvP than what I have though: what do you think? Asking my question about the rotation hasn’t been to the detriment of these areas you highlight though: quite the opposite, since it’s brought them into focus and that’s why I like to ask on forums, because conversations can bring things to light and result in their being saved in writing where they are less easy to forget about.
I am interested in PvE as well, but PvP is my main interest.
As for the Azerite pieces, I know 2 of them are not optimal, so I don’t think I need to ask anything about them.
I wouldn’t be so quick to jump to this conclusion. It may be that noone has tested this way of doing it or it may be that it has been considered but that the damage gain is considered too low to make it worth the trouble of executing. Maybe it would be too hard to execute even if the damage gain were substantial. In any case, I’m not sure I see any need to do tests on it: the math here seems pretty straight forward, as I said before: it seems to me that if we delay a Fireball cast for 1 second, we have the average expected damage gained from delaying the Fireball cast (at 2.5 seconds left on fb cd with Heating Up proc) as approximately 0.6 * (Hot Streak - 1/1.8 * Fireball) - 0.4 * Hot Streak . Substituting the numbers I have for Fireball and Pyroblast damage in to this, we get 0.6 * (16675 - 1/1.8 * 6893) - 0.4 * 16675 = 1073.33 recurring. Of course there is also Ignite damage, but since the Ignite damage from Pyroblasts is on average higher than from Fireballs, this will only result in a higher damage gain, so I don’t really want to try to factor that in to the calculations. We’ve already established that we do have a damage gain in the case described and this is all I was seeking to do. I say 2.5 seconds because my Fireballs have a 1.8 second cast time, but it’s obviously too difficult to time it exactly. I suppose it may even be too difficult to time it so that one casts a FIreball at this point of 2.5 seconds left on fb cd (0.3 seconds after the optimal time to cast it) and maybe this is why it isn’t advised or done in practice.
Actually by generalizing the 1 in the above calculation to T and equating the 2 terms, we can find the precise time at which the average expected damage from delaying the Fireball casts is equal to that of continuing them (where Pyroblast damage is P, Fireball damage is F), thus:
0.6 (P - T/1.8 * F) = 0.4 * P
Rearranging, we have
P - T.1.8 * F = (0.4 / 0.6) * P = (2/3) * P
(T /1.8) * F = P/3
and so
T = (1.8 * P) / (3 * F) = (9 * P) / (15 * F)
Now substituting in the values for Pyroblast and Fireball damage, we have
T = (9 * 16675) / (15 * 6893) = 1.45 seconds, to 2 decimal places.
So when exactly is this value of T? It’s 1.45 seconds before the point in time which is 1.8 seconds before fb cd is up, which is 1.45 + 1.8 = 3.25 seconds before fb if off cd. (Again the 1.8 seconds here is my Fireball cast time).
Of course this value for T will be slightly greater after adding Ignite damage, but not a great deal higher.
All this said, it seems that the conclusion that this is too difficult/unrealistic to execute in practice may be a reasonable one.