I think what your after is burst. They killed our burst in shadowlands I’m afraid. Even when they gave us a talent alternative to skb that would have made a 1m cd spec they never balanced anywhere near skb.
It’s ironic, they nerfed our burst because it was constantly making us meta. Now our consistent dmg is part of the reason fire is meta in m+.
Max does not mean what you think it means here it means Max the highest parse that is seen it is higher then 99% it is 100%
Max is the highest parse warcraftlog has seen from that spec.
Max is NOT reliable as good specs will get very high parses thanks to external power like PI.
But EVEN your own calculation here is MAXIMUM Middle of the pack Also i HIGHLY doubt your % numbers considering Ret got a 5% increase 1 week ago and moved 14 slots up in rankings because of it.
Also Changing from 100% parses to 95% parses and suddenly Fire mage on the same ranking without changing any setting is number 3 and is the 3rd highest dps spec on bosses.
That is how much you are manipulating your system to get the result you want.
Lets use Council and Balance druid as an example The clear winner on dps on that boss fight because of how the fight works and how balance druid works.
On 95% balance does 349154.80 dps (or 349k dps) at 100% parse or max 427465.29 dps (or 427k dps)
A difference of around 80k dps between someone doing a 95% parse on a balance druid and someone doing 100%
People do not use 100% parses because they are ALWAYS cheesed in some way they are always a gimmick to how to get them.
You need to go back and actually look more on warcaftlogs you misunderstand the setting and what it means.
No one ever drags you into something. Are you like 5 years old? Dont be draged if you don’t want to.
Now… Concerning you being unsatisfied with my answer. I read your post very attentively. And did it second time before replying to you right now.
So lets talk about so called dmg profile and game design. Basically the whole dmg log of any class consists of 2 phases: flat dmg phase and burst dmg phase. Due to the fact that burst dmg is based on your cds it is very important to take into account time of the encounter. And I do agree with you in that.
Different class specs have got different pattern of these 2 phases. Like you showed that UnDk has got a massive short burst dmg but low dmg on flat phase according to your findings. Is it fine? Yeah, UNTIL the total amount of dmg (dps) is comparable with other specs. That is why I gave this stat on fire mage in Max percentile, Amir (M), all ilvl, 10.2.5:
If the dmg output of a class spec is low compared to others there is question why RL should take him into the raid. In 20 ppl there are 14 dps. Just take 11 SubRogues, 1 aug, 1 Dh, 1 war to support them and that is all. You have got the best log ever. There was exact same problem in vanilla, when they preferably took frost mages for Ragnaros.
For some classes it is not the problem because they have offspecs like pals. So if your dps is low you have the opportunity to reroll into tank or heal thus you will always have can find your spot in game. Example, holy pals were the best solo target heal back in WotLK (maybe they are same right now, dunno), and it gives them more flexibility.
Pure DPS class dont have any choice. They need dps and it should be great or they are out of the game. Fire mage dps as you argeed has got problems. Check US mage forum pls and you will see that it is just not only my opinion.
Averages are important but the data should be correctly intepreted. Your initial sample where mages are on the 3rd place. What does it show? It is a rank list of top dps in 75th percentile. The problem with it is that if the max dps ever is, assume, 300k so 75% percentile treshold is 225k. But if your max is 400k then 225k is just 56% percentile treshold. So it means that your sample actually shows that average fire mage does better than other average player class. While other class doing same damage as fire mage are just doing with turned off monitor. I mean it is not that punishing)
The dmg needs to be improved either by increase on a burst phase (so we will be more like unholy dk) or on a flat phase. That is up to the devs team.
The only reason why mages are good at M+ cause there is no restriction or diminishing of targets to ignite (yeah you can spread it to 5 targets from one blast but every time different targets). And mages have to built ignite through combust and it deals damage through 9 sec (!).
I dont think that flat consistent dmg is good also for fire mages. Without combust you cant build a huge ignite spread. Meanwhile pals aoe for example dmg is much better especially after the recent buff. I dont like M+ system (feels like damn rifts from D3), so I dont want to get into math, and I am not the best fire mage, but you can check fire mage videos of top M+ (25 - 30). They are never top dps. Here some youtube links I refer to:
Fire mage is THE TOP dps spec in M+.
All these numbers are not WORTH ANYTHING.
You do not understand what MAX setting is you do not understand that those numbers are MADE by getting a TON of EXTERNAL cooldowns extra things that you normally do not have.
Doing things like ONLY you dpsing in the damage phase and so on.
Max is a BAD IDEA because it literally is not accurate to any kind of dps you normally would get.
Fire mage is the 8th spot on Simulationcraft for Single target So in a PERFECT world Fire is number 8.
Frost is the 7th spot on the same list for single target so in a PERFECT world Frost is number 7.
(Frost DK got both 2hander and 1hander)
So 2 out of 3 mage specs are ABOVE average when a Computer plays the perfect rotation. (as you are SO instant on using the max possible numbers)
YOU need to learn how M+ works.
Fire mage is there for the Single target damage it does and it being immortal compared to other classes even if they do more dps then mage.
It also helps that it does more then enough damage in aoe to do the content.
We were discussing this particular stat from wowhead:
/news/amirdrassil-weekly-dps-rankings-first-week-of-10-2-5-337289
It is a rank list of top DPS in 75 percentile (check damage to boss graph). So I gave Max percentile to support my thoughts. And my vision of Max percentile is same as yours. But for the same reason as you mentioned I cannot be sure what share of the sample for the each class is affected by PI or has got Aug in the raid. That is why you should check the top (Max) result. Because the more parses there were the more chances that the best conditons were met. Otherwise the data has to be normalized to offset PI, Aug, death, boss mechanic involvement, etc.
It is not my calculation. It is from warcraftlogs data. You can check it out yourself if you have doubts.
No, it means that on average top 5% fire mages do better than the average other class. While fire mages Max dmg on every boss is not that great, it means that other classes dont do their best. So it means that you interpret data the way you want it to be. Otherwise, tell me how can it be that on average that fire mage is num 3 while its max dps is way below number on all of the bosses:
Exactly. Dont you think, that 80k dps is a huge difference and those baldruid who have 349k dps mignt not met certain conditions:
That is why comparison on Max percentile is so important. It is just flat number to understand the ceiling for the class dps. And the more parses there are the more accurate this ceiling, because the chance that there is a best case scenario for each class is higher than having the sample for the each class to be naturally normalized on the above mentioned factors for them to be comparable.
Well it seems that fire mages on the Max percentile dont have that gimmick.
Here I offer you comparison of fire mage vs retri pal top dps on every boss in Amir (M), damage to bosses, all ilvl, warcraftlogs (cant post links for some reason):
/zone/statistics/35/#dataset=100&aggregate=amount&metric=bossdps&boss=2820
Oh, mighty pal! Tell me that gimmick that gives pals 10k more dps on 7 out of 9 bosses in different raid groups. I want to gitgood and do 300k+ on Gnarlroot but the best mage ever did was 288k.
Why do you want retripals to be overpowered?
Is it that bad if Ret is doing more ST than Mage? They have different strengths.
The reason they are so far ahead on boss damage on gnarlroot is because every fire mage who loves their spec is changing to all their ignite cleave talents to do some juicey overall on all them adds. Rets are really bad at cleave, they can talent ST or AoE and not a lot in between.
Also this:
This shows that you really have no idea about modern raiding. There will almost always be a mage on mythic prog (we’ve missed one world first kill in god knows how many years) because of arcane intellect. Paladin recently got some changes to help ret get a raid spot, because they barely ever see world first raid kills historically because holy paladin’s design is so strong. Let the Rets enjoy themselves for once without moaning that fire isn’t the very best of all the dmg dealers.
Yes. Exactly. But Max setting is more likely to be similar for each class. The average parse according to the same logic is also affected by a ton of external cds. And I cannot extract the share of those samples affected to normalize the sample (actually I can, but I want blizz to do that. I dont get salary from them)
I agree. But Max percentile is a cap observed.
It is like a car. You got like 180 horse power and whatever you do, you cant get more than 220 km/h with that. If you want more speed you have to change the engine and get more horse power. Same with fire mage balance or its damage profile.
So it is not the perfect world, it is a computer world. Comparing of such setting is equally inadequate as comparing your dps on a dummy and in the encounter.
Okay. I am intrigued. How M+ works?
No, fire mage is good due to the fact it has unlimited dmg on a huge pack which is very useful in high lvl keys. Their dmg there is equal to bookin and warlock. Still I would like to see some proof concerning fire mages being top dps in M+. Some flat numbers pls.
Locks and pals are much tankier than mage. Mages has got pretty great utility and surv. But they are not immortal. That is for sure.
Agree about AoE dmg. But this is ST topic. I confirm that fire mages dmg high lvl keys is good. It has its flaws, but surely doesn’t make me feel shy. I need more investigation into their AoE to make a deep dive conclusion.
Lol you brought up m+ first.
Sims do actually take into account most those things except ‘how many buttons you have to press’?!
Fire mage has spent most of the last 3 expacs as meta in m+ because of our amazing priority damage when cleaving and ability to survive one shot mechanics. Frost mage filled in for a bit when we were bad for a few weeks in SL.
The game has evolved a long way past who has the highest number.
You started with ST damage, and then you decided to talk about adds… Omg, please be more consecutive. To add more cleave, you just need to put just one talent into Master of Flame and maybe Inflame. Besides… Max total (with adds) dmg of retri pals on Gnarlroot (M) is 368k, and fire mages - 358k.
No, it is not bad. My point was that Fire mages need ST dps improvement to be more competitive. Thats all.
Well, you dont need arcane intellect if you dont have intellect base dps. Besides… I dont want to be in raid just to give 5% to intellect.
The raiding hasnt changed in this aspect since wotlk at all. You are trying to collect all of the class buffs.
That is good for them. They were garbage in Wotlk. But at least they were excellent healers. The best spot for the fire mages is M23+ (garbage and useless D3 system of rifts that is not rewarded after 20th key in any way), and you have to put a lot of effort everywhere. It is not fun. And it is not how I want it to be.
I love fire mages. Best class/spec ever. And I want it to be the best. And I will use every instrument I have to keep it like that. End of story.
#makefiremagesgreatagain
Nope. I was not the first. You were. I just answered that it seems good, but I have questions. Especially when some pal says that they are top dps in M+.
Yes, Sims does, but you missed that I was talking about Sims ranking, which doesnt include the factors I mentioned.
And they also count actions per minute where mage is 69 APM (3rd result among DPS) and ret pal is 56 APM while having top dps. Which is also a matter of consideration.
Maybe. Haven’t open the game since early WoD.
It has never been like that. And I like mages utility. It was so cool when you were asked to open a portal. Felt useful and mobile. Or when you could spellsteal a 50% crit chance increase. But out of that you always had to show numbers.
But right now I feel that with any effort I cant be good dps. If you dont have 55% Combup, its a fail. But even with 55% combup your dps is still not close to the best. That is what makes me sad.
I started to figure out how to increase dmg, spent several hours in Sims to rate talents an stats, watched every video with guide and found no answer.
I suggest that you should do an experiment. This is fun. Take a Firestarter talent and go to Iridicron (M20+). He is above 90% health almost all the time, so you will have 100% crit chance. Check out if you are outnumbered.
Because the numbers are worth nothing because the numbers are inflated do you understand the word inflated?
the number is not true because the numbers comes from getting things like Power Infusion from priest and the buffs from Evoker do you understand this?
False.
Because it is possible to do the average persons parse without the benefits you are only making a Bad person become average with the buffs.
Wrong and has been proven to be wrong for literally more then 10Years.
And is why it has never been a good idea to use.
Each spec get different amount of benefit from the externals, it is not a flat amount increase in the externals.
It is Nothing like a car.
A car do not get increased speed increased Horse power by a Random car sitting on the sidelines.
Your car analogy breaks down the moment you even start to think about it.
Yet you are perfectly willing to use Max a less trustworthy thing than simulationcraft.
It takes into consideration the amount of buttons you have to push, the rotation and trinkets used.
Literally only 1 of those points you mentioned is true.
The rotation used is what gives Sim numbers so if you are going to question it then you can not trust what gear is best you can not trust what stats are best you can not trust what trinkets are best you can not trust what damage you are supposed to do is.
You can not trust the guide writers you can not trust wowhead you can not trust icy-veins.
But sure if you can prove to everyone that simulationcraft is doing the rotation wrong go for it.
Everyone benefits from it.
Yet you are Perfectly willing to compare less realistic situation then that.
Max is literally less realistic situation then doing single target on a dummy.
Go look at how Fire mage does aoe damage and you will learn that single target and aoe from fire is basically tied up in a bow.
Buff single target and you buff aoe damage.
Locks are sturdier without using cooldowns however you need to understand how damage works it is one shot mechanics that is happening Mage has so many buttons that each one can be used to stop themselves from getting one shot that is what makes make insanely Tanky.
Just look up what Fire mastery is (also known as Ignite)
There is literally an Ignite build people run in M+
Fire mage is in an awesome spot atm, the OP is literally crying that other classes are ahead while fire still has the tools to do raids and M+ far in excess of what they are doing.
Its’ on the top 1/3rd.
You are absolutely right about that. And at the Max percentile each class is highly likely to be under the best circumstances. So It means that every best parse has got an Aug. And the chances for that is stronger the more parses are observed (sample size).
Meanwhile the opposite situation is within the average number. For example you ve got 100k parses for each class. What is the proportion of parses with aug in the raid? For some classes it might be 80% and for another it might be 20%. So it is obvious that the average dps for the class with 80% aug parses is higher.
To avoid that you have to normalize the sample due to aug presence in the raid. So you take the sample and clear it from all of the nonaug parses. In that case the average number is more accurate to compare different classes. Same way clinical research for medication works. Right now the average number on warcraftlogs is compromised due to this fact.
Do you understand that? Do you understand these heavy words like sample size and data normalization? Kappa
Exactly my point. There are tons of such parses in average numbers. Meanwhile best parse considers the best player with best condition.
So you wanna say that the best parse consists of a bad player with best buffs?
If the best parse consists of the bad player with the best buffs like Aug, then the whole game is fked up. Because it means that your effort into dps is less worthy than buffs. Dont gitgood just take an aug and you will be fine.
It might be only my opinion, but that is poor balance and game design, because I as a player is out of control of my raid efficiency.
Back in Wotlk it was not like that. There were no augs and PI. There were only utility based cds for raid (like innervate) and bloodlust. Class buffs had minor effect on the raid and were replaceable. That is all.
Again if the 5% intellect gives different amount of dps increase to different int classes, it means that ilvl scaling is fked up by devs. In this scenario you have to think should you change ilvl 483 to 489.
It doesnt break if you install in the car some nitro. But it was not my point. Read again.
No, it doesnt. It just counts the amount of buttons pushed. The ranking doesnt consider that.
Sims is dummy based statistics. You can understand the scalling of stats thanks to this instrument, but not actual play. Here is the video from youtube concerning fire mage rotation and comparison of its rotation to sims where Forgyy gets 20 more pyros than Sims. Sorry to break your world.
/watch?v=12iy8ICXuio&ab_channel=Forgy
Max is literally realistic situation that happened. It is a true real log.
Sure. Blizz pls balance that.
I dont want to hear anything about surv from RetriPal class who has got more HP and armor than cloth based classes, bubble, BoP, lay on hands, DP and self active and passive heal.
You obviously dont know how fire mages work.
First of all, fire mastery: ignite is the less favourable stat according to Sims if you like it so much.
Second. Ignite mastery and Ignite build are different things. And for the ignite build you need haste and crit, not mastery.
Third. Ignite build is pretty good. But man it is so frustrating… The reason it is good in M23+ because packs live long enough. You need 5+ targets, 8-12 targets is perfect, you need to build ignite which takes around 15 secs, and than you need 9 secs for the ignite to fully damage. And for that you get normal dmg in M+ not the best.
Show me any video from M27+ where mage is top overall dps.
Going back to my comment that the game has evolved from the highest number: Mage could use an aoe flamestrike build in m+ that would do more overall damage than the ignite build that is usually used. It uses the ignite build because it can do big ST damage on a priority mob with high health and still do very decent cleave with ignite. The idea is to divide your damage unequally so mobs with more health die at the same time as the mobs with less health to speed up the key.
This is were fire excels, and its also great in raid where you can cleave adds without losing ST damage. Ret paly as an example can talent is strong ST or strong aoe but not both at the same time. That’s why on Gnarlroot a paly can have a higher parse for boss damage and for overall but not at the same time, it’s always sacraficing one for the other.
The other reason mage is so great in high keys is that it has so many buttons to survive mechanics that others specs just can’t live through.
The right talents at the right times can make a big difference rn. Almost every talent is worth running in the right situation. I do use firestarter in there on tyran weeks, on fort I don’t bother as I usually have a tw up for pull and I’m barely out of combustion anyway.
I went weeks not running surging blaze in my raid builds because I thought it was still just a flamestrike talent (it has the same logo!), changing back to that helped my dps a lot lol.
Also if the armory is up to date, maybe craft some rings to get some more gems. Gems are worth about 12 ilvls on a ring and it’ll boost the proc on your lariat.
I almost agree with you on every point. Though I have several comments.
So solo target build (check Icy Vein for build) is pretty strict and has fine ignite utility. The problem with ignite is that it is very slow. My max ignite tick is around 60k. In order to get it you have to use combust and at least 10 sec and wait 9 more secs for it to give full dmg. While Pals or War just need to click a button. In many instances I cant manage good ignite cause adds are dead by the time ignite base dmg is huge enough. I will also some experiments next week. But it is what it is.
NB: that is where ignite Mastery losses to Vers cause it gives you higher dmg increase for ignite + dmg reduction. So 1% (205 rating) of Vers gives 1% of dmg to everything and 0,5% of dmg reduction, while 1% (289 rating) of ignite Mastery gives 1% only to ignite. I am so frustrated with this math and that is why I want ignite mastery to be reworked
Btw, there is Forgyy who actually offers to use firestarter in raid unlike most guides offer. Practically it means that you have combust first 10% of boss health which gives you opportunity to SKB proc and only after that you use combust to get 16 secs of combust. I will test it next week.
BUT, it only works if your tank is able to keep this huge pack of mobs. For example tank gathers the whole first room in Galakrond fall (M27) before the boss: 18 mobs and 1.21m dps at top for mage. Same peak as Pal and Dh. Same 92m dmg done to the pack. The reason for that dps is that ignite doesnt have restrictions on the amount of targets. Check youtube video:
/watch?v=GcnkzS-Lcd4&t=949s&ab_channel=TbsCuddles
The huge problem of this build is that you need tank to keep mobs at one place. Which is super frustrating. Firstly you cant start the fight at pull.Cause you need to wait until the tank gathers the pack in one place. Second, I had so many times when tank just runs out with a pack from 4 flame patches and a meteor. It is huge dps loss. Meanwhile most melee classes just cleave all the way with the tank. And then there is question: hey, mage, why so noob?Mage, where is your dps? pal has got 230k and you have 140k. Shame on you mage!
Devs, this is not fun! RDD always had more dmg while melee had more utility like stuns, kicks, group defense, surv and etc. And now they have more or similar damage with less effort.
I think you will agree with me on this one. I just dont want to play mage anymore. I am getting my pal dressed to get every fire mage to humiliate mages.
None of that is news. You’re assuming the grass is greener in melee. Melee can do more instant damage until they have to move out of range for mechanics or they steal aggro on a mob and get one shot or they don’t see the frontal on the ground because a mage has left fire everywhere and they get one shot.
If paly speaks to you and you want to play it, good luck to you, I hope you find a better fit. Maybe you need to shop around specs a bit to find the right one. But if your looking for the one strongest class I don’t think there is one this patch. There’s a lot of powerful classes that have their own strengths and weakness which is honestly amazing.
The only time a class/spec feels truely strong is when you’ve (somewhat) mastered it and your fingers press the right buttons without you even thinking about it. That takes time, at least for me and I assume most people.
You wont convince him. He will manipulate any data and any source to try and tell you fire mage is D-tier dps spec (He did that on another thread with me). Even when you try and argue that mages bring more to the table than just dps, the argument will be twisted back again to how fire mages are lower in DPS therefor bad (:
His argument to this is that he dies in a stun… He didn’t even know blink could free you from stuns… So take his “Duel any fire mage as Retri” with a grain of salt xD
all in all guys, you are trying to tell someone (I did in vein), that mages are more than just dps, and are both heavily used in MDIs and AWC, and are doing solid in most (if not all) tier lists, but nooo… Then some source will be manipulated or twisted like “Mages are bad in 2v2 therefor mages are D-tier pvp overall” xD
This is what you are arguing against
But fun to see, that in the other thread you claimed the forums were filled with mage players that agree with you, and in your own thread, people just like I tried, tried to explain to you, that mages are not D-tier and “bad” just because you can manipulate some stats to show they aren’t top xD
Yet again, you do prove me right 
Highly represented does not mean HIGHEST represented xD
And people not playing the class does not making its powers less and or make it a D-tier class all of a sudden xD
Funny how you cut out all the pieces where YOU started talking about my personal life, and how my life must suck and I need recognition in game xD
And now, you pretend like you are sitting on your high horse.
Matter of the fact is, even in both threads people call you out for the exact same reasons. You just insist that you are right, and others are wrong. You cherry pick specific numbers to fit your narrative that mages are D-tier class in all aspects, and you are arrogant pretending you know the game better than the people you argue against, and when they call you out (Like I did), you first admit to your fault to later make a u-turn saying stuff like “I am a former glad player” and then yet again proceed to call others bad xD
Mages are not D-tier… They are highly represented in end game due to what they bring to the table. No, I will repeat, this does NOT mean they have the highest DPS, but ranking a class is more than just saying “Oh this class dies instantly and brings no utility… But does most DPS… S-tier!!”
Read this
and this
I would advice you to do the same.
Noone is saying mage is perfect, noone is saying mage isnt hard to play? Like are you that lost in your own words, that you can’t even comprehend what those two threads are about?
You claim mages are not A-tier… You claim mages are bad… Which they aren’t… They are hard to play.
Read the two threads and come back when you find somewhere where people other than you claim mage is F-tier
Like honestly mate, try comparing your words and your claims in the two threads you participated in, and the ones in the two threads you linked there… Miles different… At this point that you spent what, a week to find those two threads and you still just prove you can’t comprehend whats being written is just sad at this point…
Man, thats too much. No point in discussion. Think and do whatever. Idc