Fix M+ in 500 words

Community General Discussion
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The math is adding up very easily. I mean, what are we talking about? I experience this every single day as a tank/heal player in my +15 range keys.

DPS slots get filled within seconds because you get more applications than you can even read.

Sure, sometimes you wait a minute to maybe get a slightly higher rated DK instead of the lower rated one but it’s really not more than a minute or 2 in 99% of the cases. Only if the group leader/key holder is extraordinarily picky, that’s the remaining 1%.

If we’re talking about +20 keys, yes you may be right as that’s about 0.1% of the player base but that’s irrelevant. Not only does it just concern an incredibly small minority of the players but it’s also irrelevant because in those keys, you’re mostly running with full premades anyways.

In my key range of +15/16 it’s not an issue to find suitable DPS in the slightest. And that’s already, according to raider io, around the top ~2% range (of the playerbase doing those key levels, sitting around 3,250 io).

Sign up anything around 10 and you have a quadrillion DPS applications.

Again, the pool of DPS players in relation to the pool of tank and heal players is astronomically high, so it’s not an issue to find DPS for your groups because most DPS players are idling in Dornogal anyways, waiting for invites.

What I’m waiting for is a healer, when I’m playing tank and a tank when I’m playing healer. The DPS slots get filled while waiting for one of those two spots.

More often than not groups also don’t invite the last DPS spot on purpose before finding a healer/tank just in case a tank/healer is duo queuing with a DPS.

And again, I literally never wait for DPS players for more than 2 minutes, even with a semi-picky group for my 15/16 keys.

Yes, we do. Pugging inherently means to pick random players. Sure, you filter some for class/specc and rating but that’s a rather quick process that’s not involving anything close to 20 or 45 minutes of waiting.

(You do realize that the LFG tool does not display every single key listed, right? Just as the /who panel, the list can only display a limited amount of listings at the same time).

Anyways… where do you think the overwhelmingly vast majority of the playerbase is playing at?

+18s are already close to the top 0.2 to 0.1 percentile as all 18s is somewhere close to 3700 rating.

Furthermore the majority of players at such a high rating is no longer using the LFG tool anyways as they already have a full premade group, so the affected players of the pool you’re chosing for your example is extraordinarily minimal - statistical outliers so to speak.

Granted, you’re right that this is a problem for them specifically, I’ll concede to that but picking statistical outliers of an extremely small sample size to make a point isn’t really the play here. Especially not in a scenario where the skill level and difficullty is so high that the players in that range don’t even benefit from automated group forming.

And even if they’re pugging I can guarantee you that those players sure as hell don’t want an automated system that flings in a random DPS to their group as those high rated players already start looking at logs in order to find (in their opinion) suitable DPS for their keys. (As you’ve stated, barrier of entry).

The barrier of entry for DPS players, as you’ve mentioned multiple times by now also indicates that players waiting for “suitable DPS” are waiting ON PURPOSE. How is an automated system solving this? An automated system would basically be close to being the same as them just inviting the first 3 DPS that sign up.

Just 3k and having done 18s doesn’t add up. Or are you talking about over 3k? Because the difference between a 3k player and a 3.7k player is really huge, much bigger than the difference between a 2k and a 2.7k player.

That’s the point everybody is making. DPS are waiting, tanks and healers are not and as I’ve mentioned, most groups wait to fill up DPS slots until they found a tank and healer for the possibility of them signing up as duo queue or group.

Look, I’ll grant you that an automated system would make things better for some players, that’s absolutely out of the question imo.

BUT at the same time it’ll make things worse for other players.

People who benefit from an automated M+ system are:

  • The bad/average DPS

  • Off-meta players

People who get harmed:

  • Good DPS players

  • Tanks

  • Healers

Why is that?

Bad and average DPS players, as well as off-meta players currently get filtered out manually because they’re a suboptimal pick. An automated queue system would even out the chances of getting picked for them.

The good meta DPS players get harmed because they’ve been picked more frequently than the bad/off-meta ones, so as chances of getting picked are now automated, it evens out and their pick rate drops down to the same level as the pick rate of worse/off-meta-dps players.

Tanks and healers don’t have any issues getting into keys anyways, so an automated system basically just robs them of the ability to pick “good” DPS players.
For them, it’ll basically be the same, getting instant invites and a close to instant starts. The only difference to them is that they now will have statistically worse DPS players in their groups.

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This is because those players are being picky over who they take, it is that simple.

Anyway fact remains blizzard stated they will makes changes to LFG but there will be no auto que.

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Delete it (x 250)

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at this point i would like to see them add solo queue just to see all the posts about dps queue time being 30+ minutes into brick first pull.

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Yeah, but your point is anecdotal; you can’t then use it to paint a broader picture.

There needs to be more substance.

Again, not all DPS are created equal.

As I said, the math isn’t adding up.

If you had to guess, or maybe you can give a more concrete answer, what percentage of the player base are doing +15s (has a 3250 IO)?

And if you had to guess, what percentage of that percentage are DPS?

The pool of DPS players you’re drawing from is very limited.

Bro, not all DPS are created equal.

The idea that you will risk your +15 key with randoms off the street isn’t believable. When I say randoms, I mean players who are not being vetted.

Your highest key was a +7, sure, bro, you can join my +15, it’s not that serious, it’s just a videogame… in what world?

No, I just glanced at his rating because I found it odd that his group was getting filled quickly; from everything you lot were telling me, I thought it would be.

But yeah, I think his IO was 3.7k like you said.

My SoloQ system for M+

Two requirements.

  1. The appropriate gear and…
  2. Having completed the previous iteration of the dungeon, to do a +5, you have to have done the +4 version.

The first 5 minutes of every hour, players can queue for their highest “key”, and only within those 5 minutes can they queue for it.

All “keys” below your highest one can be queued for at any time.

If you happened to queue up for lower “keys” during the first 5 minutes of the hour, you get some type of bonus for helping pull other players forward.

In this system, even at high “keys” with fewer players, queue times will be short if you are queuing at reasonable hours.

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I am sorry but what does this have to do with anything? Ofc when you are making a group comp. DPS with CR, hero, meta status will have an advantage over those who dont. Thats obvious.
But comparing with tanks and healers people, the scenario is different. if with dps, I can just create my “dream team comp” then with tanks, I need to snipe the first tank or healer which comes my way. Cause very likely they are signing up for other keys as well and I need to snipe them before…other key holders does it first.

So you can argue philosophy as much as you want but the cold hard fact remains = DPS outnumber tanks and healers.

Which again fails to adress the main issue = lack of healers and tanks.

It wont “birth” new tanks and healers out of thin air. And for the current tanks and healers, the system is unattractive. Why would they join a randomly made comp with possible sub-quality DPS and with the penalty system in place, be also stuck with them? If they currently can just cherry pick the best DPS for their own KEYS or join some group with imba 3.4k rio dps and etc.

So in the end, all your system will accomplish is become a drain to Blizzard’s resources to create and maintain and DPS will wait in 4-5h long queues…because there wont be that many dumb or masochist healers/tanks who will join your soloQ which will 90% be a never ending circus when and IF the run actually takes place.

If you want to argue that your system will make the DPS queues shorter then you need to give convincing arguments why a tank or healer will join it. They got short queues already, they can cherry pick their groups down to perfection, so they gain nothing from your system.

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Yeah, but your point is just entirely theoretical and while theory can be true, all anecdotal evidence cumulated in this thread points towards your theory just being wrong.

I don’t mean this in a bad way but you can theorize as much as you want, when multiple people tell you that this is just extremly distant from reality/doesn’t apply in practice, the theory just might be wrong.

I mean tbf, it is more substance than sitting in LFG for 12 minutes once and spectating a small subset of the listed keys.

I’ve at least accumulated the same anecdotal data over multiple seasons, addons and years indicating that there are just way too many DPS players over tanks and healers and every other poster in this thread pretty much just agrees with that.

Again, that’s irrelevant. You never have to wait for DPS players in practice and IF you wait then it’s on purpose. An LFG system wouldn’t make the waiting times better for tanks/healers. It just robs them of the option of being picky.
And if I’m waiting >on purpose< then obiously waiting is not an issue to me, so what do I gain from the automated system?

You keep saying this but you haven’t provided any math so far. (Unless I’ve missed the numbers somehwere in the thread)

The math is even adding up easily idk why you keep saying it’s not.
There are (arbitrary number just to get the point across) 15 DPS players for every tank/healer in existence. The ratio of DPS to tank/heal doesn’t drastically change by key level.
(Yes 15:1 is blown out of propotion, it’s just for illustration purposes)
Yes, those DPS players are not all identical but there are still WAY MORE appropriate DPS players than tanks and healers available for any key level, so it doesn’t matter whether they’re created equal or not. You NEVER run out of DPS applications, the issue remains in finding tanks and healers.

I mean, the answer to your question is written in the very sentence you quoted. Roughly 2%.

To be REALLY precise. In Europe 2.40% of all CHARACTERS have completed all +15s. That’s all characters though, not all players, so you can assume the amount of players having done that to be lower since a lot of high level players play multiple characters to that level. For the sake of simplicity, let’s just go with 2.4% though.

I don’t have the data for this as idk where to reliably extract this from.
What I can tell you is that, according to dataforazeroth, there are A LOT more max. level DPS characters than there are tank/heal characters.

DPS: ~74%
Healers: ~14%
Tanks: ~12%

So about 5.3 DPS per healer and 6.2 DPS per tank.

I’d just take that as a rough indication of role distribution, a really rough one. As it’s just max level speccs, completely ignoring the content that is done on those characters.

Yes, correct, but the pool from tanks and healers you’re drawing from is even more limited.

Bro, it doesn’t matter. 99% of the playerbase does not have to wait for DPS players. And if they’re waiting for more optimal DPS players, than those who already have applied, then they’re doing it willingly. How’s an automated system improving this? It’s just removing the option to willingly wait for better options. It’s just removing agency.

Ok? What am I supposed so say against that, lol. I mean, when we list our own key (I often, not always, play with 1 or 2 friends), we look at the class, his/her rio, highest completed key overall and highest completed key of this dungeon. All of this information is available within the game client and shown in the tooltip. So it takes mere seconds.
When in doubt, we check logs (happened 2 times during this season so far… just for a single DPS player each time, not everyone in the list of applicants).

We absolutely do not spend 10, 20, 45 minutes on vetting players.

And if I (tank/heal) or we (tank + DPS) apply for random keys, we always do for keys we still need rio-wise and get invited. So we do get invited for a +15 dawn with only a +14 dawn timed yet.

You can obviously deny that claim and tell me this is unbelievable and doesn’t happen. I can just tell you what I experience and I don’t see any data disproving my own experience.

Nobody said that mate. There are more than enough DPS who’ve completed +14/15/16 applying for the key. I’ve never been in a situation where we were DPS starved. Like literally never (in M+, not raiding).

I’ve seen this suggestion a few times and I do agree it would be good for the average wow player. For anybody who’s currently doing 14+ though, this would be beyond attrocious, keep that in mind.

Just to give you an example: When a new season starts, I absolute never do every dungeon on +2, then 3, then 4, etc. I just do my first +2 key (because that’s the only key you get at the start of a season), then I do my +5, then my +7/8, and so on.

Me and my friends usually jump straight into at least 7s asap to get some gear and crests in and then do 10s within the first week. Having to slog through 48 dungeons before being able to do your first +7 is kind of a drag. Beyond annoying even.
(Yes, I’m aware that with your system, you could theoretically just spam the same dungeon over and over again, but who does that? We also need gear from other dungeons)

Furthermore, it would incentivize EXCESSIVE grinding for a lot of people during the first ID of the season. For some it would even rob them of their chance of getting a myth vault during the first ID just due to the massive amount of keys they’d have to play and not enough time.

I imagine that would suck very hard for anybody with a limited amount of playtime. Let’s assume I’m a dad with about an hour of gaming time per day. I come home from work, eat, play with my kid, take it to bed. It’s 21:07 at this point. Well, can’t queue for my highest key now and have to wait to 22:00. At this point though, I just have 10 minutes left to play so… guess a key is out of the question now because there’s not enough time left.

Look, I’ve been playing this game for over 20 years by now and the issue of forming dungeon groups since the very start until now has always been to find tanks and after that healers.

I’m not really sure why we’re arguing about this so much.
I absolutely agree with you that the amount of DPS players on a specific level is limited, obviously everything is limited. But the amount of DPS players is far less limited than the amount of tanks and healers to chose from. That’s all it boils down to.

This game has always had the problem of too many people wanting to play big d*ck DPS over getting smacked in the face or mending your allies.

So imo there are only 2 logical solutions to cut queue times for DPS players
Either make tanking and healing FAR more appealing so more people do it
or
Increase the DPS:tank:heal ratio needed for dungeons. For example, a dungeon now requires 1 tank, 1 healer and 4 or even 5 DPS to start. (I don’t want this to happen though, just saying).

Now let’s just do a thought experiment: Let’s assume your desired system is implemented by Blizzard.

As a tank and healer, I was previously able to cherry pick which people to invite, to get my most optimal group going.

Assuming your system doesn’t entirely replace/disable the manual LFG - why would I, as a tank or healer, sign up for the auto queue system?

I think we can agree that a manually curated group will most likely be superior to an automatically assembeled group. So what is my incentive, as a tank/healer, to sign up for this auto system?

My waiting time previously was close to non existend (0 to 2 minutes) AND I was able to cherry pick.

What does your system do for me as a tank/healer?

How would you incentivize us to use the queue?
More gear drops? Useless after 1 or 2 weeks in the season.
More crests? Useless from the very start of the season because there is a crest cap per week.
More Gold? Idk… maybe?
Our key being undepletable if we sign up with our key? Could maybe work.

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88

To add to your point. 99% of the you are looking for CR and BL when choosing a DPS. Once you get higher you start considering meta picks, and since wow players like FOTM rerolls, not particularly an issue. So we are going back to LF CR and/or BL. For Bl you have Mages (pretty much always meta), hunters (one of the most played classes), shamans and evokers. For CR you have paladins (another overrepresented class), druids (yet another one), DKs (which are meta) and warlocks. Thats 8 out of 13 classes that have either CR or BL, and that is already assumimg your tank and healer don’t already cover those utilities.

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To even add more onto that: You actually don’t need someone with CR at all. It’s making the run more convenient but there is already an item that does the same job.

“Convincingly Realistic Jumper Cables”

Can be bought off the AH. No profression required. Same CD as CR.
Only downside is that is has a cast time (1.5s at highest rank iirc) and you need to be almost completely on top of the player because it has a really narrow range.
Well… and they’re expensive.

We often go into +14/15s without a class that can CR and just use those jumper cables.

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Yeah but usually someone dies in a circle or something and you need to stand in that damage to ress him. Or you have absolutely no idea where the character is and you search your but of. I 100% prefer a normal res :slight_smile:

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91

Oh yes I 100% agree. It’s just that you don’t ABSOLUTELY need to wait for someone with a CR.

The “can’t find mah boi” issue doesn’t occur to us because I, as a tank, have my ping bound to my mousewheel. I just click on the unit frame and everybody sees the ping.

The puddles however (damn you Dawnbreaker and Gambit specifically) is a very valid point, lol.

Normal CR absolutely is superior, just not a dead hard requirement nowadays, imo. Ofc you prefer it but you can circumvent the issue of not finding a class having one.

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I think there’s always a ret or dk to find, so i’m not seeing any reason to not take a normal battle res :grin: You are 2 keylevels higher than i am, so maybe the amount of choices are lower for you.

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Nah, you’re mostly correct. There are more than enough DKs and Rets available for keys.

It’s just that I often play with some of my friends. Most of the time just 2 but sometimes even 3 and all of them are DPS (I tank) and none of their classes have CR nor BL and there is no healer that offers both CR and BL so we often end up getting a shaman and just CR-ing with the item, lol.

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Absolutely not. I remember when we had the old affixes, and most of them were utterly horrible. M+ is much better now that they don’t exist.

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Remove this abadon vote bs as it’s getting exploited to hold people hostage.
Add more resilient key levels.
Fire whoever designed the Dawnbreaker dungeon.

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Not theoretical, but observational, it’s based on what I’ve observed, which is why I posted what I saw in LFG the other day.

How can anecdotal evidence be more substantive than observational data.

From your experience, groups listed with tanks/healers get filled fast, right?

The data disputes your point; therefore, what I saw in LFG (tanks/healers waiting ages for the group to be filled) isn’t common?

The numbers are all guesses and estimations, comma, however, I did not see what you “said” I would have in LFG.

So now, let’s use deductive reasoning, and here’s where the “math” comes in.

I saw what I thought I would in LFG (my math is right), I did not see what you “said” I would have (your math is wrong).

Make sense? Since we don’t have any real numbers to go off of.

Things are starting to make a bit more sense now.

This is why:
Anecdotal Evidence < Observational Data.

Everyone here that you see putting on for LFG has a pocket healer and or tank that they push keys with.

If you’re listing your group as a duo or trio, I can see the requirements for DPS being a bit more lax.

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Your observation is anecdotal as well.

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And worse because we have thousands upon thousands runs of “observational data” by being ourselves healer/tank. And he is looking at some random 18 key in LFG :joy:

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The other day you searched +18 on LFG and saw nothing.

You know why? Not only are there almost nobody playing those key levels. But ON TOP they all play with premade/friends list.

So. If there are 10 people wanting to play their +18… 9 of them will not even post their key in LFG.

So you got 0.1% of the players doing +18s. And on TOP only 1/10 even post their key in LFG. So its 0.01% of the player-base. That is like… 50 to 100 characters… At MOST… Out of the millions of players running keys…

I mean… you call that data? You say that is not “theoretical”…

That level of extreme extrapolation to prove a point reaks of desperation.

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Also a lot of those key ranges I see posted are not exactly for sign ups. If you check their descriptions its “Want to push keys, building a team, sign up for interview” or something like that.

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