Flaws of Demonology Damage dealing MECHANICS

It is not a secret, that current warlock design is bad across the board.
The reason why warlock suffers in BFA lies not only in bad damage dealing mechanics…(All melee players, please take a note that damage dealing mechanics is not the same as bad damage numbers).
Like i said before warlocks suffer from bad damage dealing mechanics.

To future adress this issue let’s just take a look at basic warlock burst rotation, from pure time perspective.

Ok, in order to perform basic (without talents/essences) burst you need:

  • Five soulshards
  • Two or four stacks of demonic cores.
  • Tyrant off CD

In order to fully embrace the situation, let’s pretend that we was in the middle of the fight(PvP) and we are out of shards, how our burst rotation would look like?
All next calculations will be performed without consideration of Haste stat.

So lets have a look at amount of time that we need in order to start our burst:
So 0 soulshards, 0 demonic core procs.

  1. Two Shadow bolts - 4 seconds of cast time.
  2. Cast Call Dreadstalkers - 2 seconds of cast time.
  3. 12 seconds until Dreadstalkers will expire + 2 seconds of traveltime of demonic core.
  4. While we are waiting our demonic core procs we are busy generatin the soulshards by casting 5x Shadow bolts - 10 second of cast time.
  5. Hand of Gul’danDemonboltHand of Gul’danDemonboltHand of Gul’dan - 4.5 second of cast time.
  6. Cast Summon Demonic Tyrant - 2 seconds of cast time.

So in the end we have ~24.5 seconds of preparation, in order to Summon Demonic Tyrant, and at this point the burst hasn’t even began. Tyrant will deal damage for 15 seconds.
So from the naked start to the end of the burst it will take ~39.5 seconds.

Ok is we will take a look at more comfort situation, where we start combat with 3 soulshards, and we will be able to cast Call Dreadstalkers immediately… the preparation time will take whole two seconds less, we still will have to face dreadstalkers 12 seconds of timegate.

Our Burst can be separated to the three parts.

  • First part is paragraphs from 1 to 4, this is relatively safe time of the burst rotation, because at this point any interupt or CC won’t ruin our burst rotation.
  • Second part is paragraphs 5 and 6, this is really crucial part of our burst, because as soon as you land your first Hand of Gul’dan, and first wave of imps will spawn, you will have very limited time to continue your rotation and sommon a Tyrant.
    • When imps are spawned, they will start to cast their Fel firebolts, Fel firebolt has same cast time as your Shadow bolt - 2 seconds, each wild imp will cast only 5 fel firebolts before it will expire, so you only have 10 seconds to finish your burst rotation and Summon Demonic Tyrant. Idealy it will take 6.5 second, but if you will recieve any CC or Interupt during this part of the burst, it will ruin it.
  • Third part is Tyrant’s damage itself, and things won’t go easier even here. He can be CCed, interupted, on top of that he has same cast range as we 40yd, wich makes him unreliable againt any mobile class who can cross these 40yd with one GCD.

Ok, let’s go deeper into our core damage dealing nuances.
Our core abilities is Shadow bolt, Demonbolt, Hand of Gul’dan and Call Dreadstalkers. In the stock form, Demonology greatest damage dealing source is wild imps that spawns from Hand of Gul’dan, and there lies a big problem for compedetive gameplay of Demonology.
You see, wild imps are not the only source of our damage, they also have chance to give us demonic core proc, they are also resource for our Implosion spell, and the only reliable source of Wild imps is Hand of Gul’dan, but Hand of Gul’dan is AoE spell with Splash damage. And in PvP situations where your control could play the crutial part, demonology suffers because the very nature of it’s damage dealing mechanics forces you to use AoE spell in the base rotation. And in situations where you, or your team mates used CCs like Fear, seduction, polymorph, hex or blind, Hand of Gul’dan can litteraly ruin CCs, because it was designed in the such way.
Of course, someone may say something like “But you can stop using Hand of Gul’dan during CC chains”, and yes we can stop using Hand of Gul’dan, but it will leads us to situation where we will have to stop using one of our core-base damage dealing spells, and because of that our overall DPS could suffer greatly from that.

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Yes there are huge issues with Demonology especially for PvP.
Summoning a beefy tyrant requires a lot of pre planning with demonics core procs in mind.
And this 1,5 min cd is the only window we actually have any chance to kill an opponent, not mentioning healers who can outheal with CDs the tyrants dmg, and forcing a healer to use his/her cds only to wait for a new tyrant and having the healers all CDs back from cd again…and to go for a kill you need at the bare minimum a 310% buffed tyrant, with the optimal being 400%+.
Failed to kill anything with the tyrant? Do your best to survive for 1,5 mins for your next try because your dmg outside of tyrant is insignificant and most DPS classes self heals outheal the dmg.
And not mentioning how the tyrants dmg can be entirely negated with LoS, kill, or bad AI who goes after the hunter pet.

Obviously this new “build up spirit bomb goku style for dmg” class design which many caster speccs suffer from is crap and we need to go back to design where the damage output of a class is more evenly distributed among other spells so that our entire speccs burst and potential kill damage does not rely on one sketchy spell.

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You totally don’t start your DPS rotation like that. You will be pre casting Demonbolt to 5 shards, cast dogs, 2x Shadowbolt, then Hand, Shadowbolt/Soulstrike, Hand, then tyrant. Saving core procs for your tyrant is only a thing for your second or third cast.

It was for PvP situation

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2 packs of imps with DeCon does plenty of damage on its own in PVP, you don’t really need to bugger around with core procs. The only real issue is LOS. Sad times.

I just timed it and it took only 7 seconds with no buffed haste from 5 shards. Combined with fear and a stun that’s off the GCD, that sounds fine to me. The tyrant did over 1M damage over 15 seconds as I got an extra 2 shards from SC for a third hand. Even with just 2 hands, you’re probably looking at 5-700k at least over those 15 seconds.

Don’t forget that in PvP damage is lower, way lower.
And in current Meta, tyrant with 3 packs of imp may not be enough to defeat DH, DK, Fury, Healers and other classes with working self-healing mechanics.
Even if you chain good CC, interupts Tyrant may not be enough to have a punch.
And outside of tyrant in PvP demo DPS is sloppy and damage dealing mechanics are clumsy at best.

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1M damage, even at 50% reduction will still pack a punch. I’ve 100>0% plenty of people with an average tyrant and along with other spells. I think the major problem with demo is having to hard cast everything, not necessarily the damage ramp. It definitely can be a frustrating spec to PVP with, that much is certain :smiley:

https://imgur.com/a/Oes50ky

14 kills with mostly 6 shard tyrants, aside from MOLD and SC procs. I don’t even play much PVP, I’m just trying to get enough honour right now to level Blood of the enemy essence. The spec seems fine, unless you’re making things overly complicated for yourself by having such an insanely long ramp up. If you’re intent on having core procs for a tyrant, just take the Power Siphon talent.

Tbh I feel like many issues could also be fixed if demo would be allowed to stack shards up to 9 at least. This way you could save up for a burst a lot more reliably by being allowed to cast at least 3 stacks of imps and not being too depended on the soul shard casino from talents and traits.

Demo need a redesign from the scratch, and not some numerical “duct tape” to fix this mess what blizz call demonology.

No matter how many shards i will be able to strore, the core problem of the spec won’t magicaly dissapear.

Demo is broken, it is a gameplaywise design mess, with tons of problems on the any possible gameplay level possible. From bad numbers, to the bad Pet AI, from bugs and glitches to the bad talents.

No other spec in game is designed to be messy, but demon is.

UPD. Demonology is highly broken and predictable spec, sure in PvE you can do your stuff and be happy seeing some big numbers in their damage meters. But people don’t understand that BFN (stands for Big freaking numbers) are not the main thing in the spec. Gameplay is the pillar of the spec, fun from gameplay is the essential part of the spec. And current demo doesn’t show us a great gameplay features and fun…

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So basically your problem with demo is that it is an actual caster…?

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My problem is that my gameplay mechanics that forces me to hardcast do not provide any meaningful impact on the gameplay side of the demo.

Rest of the classes do same or more then Demo, with litteraly zero casts, while maintain better gameplay, design and toolkit.

The problem with Demo is it’s not fun, some of the talents don’t make sense or even work, some of the talents are never picked, the overall gameplay is so clunky and stupid especially the pet AI.

It needs to be reverted back to MoP/WoD where actual Demo locks excelled and enjoyed it.

No more emo zoo keeper design it simply doesn’t work. Make this gimped playstyle a fourth spec or make metamorphosis a talent that’ll bring back all the utility we had with Metamorphosis

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Agree, current demo idea could have been good, if tech behind class design and actual class desing was good.

Right now, if we had some tools to control behavior of our demons in combat, it could make spec somewhat more enjoyable. But still, WoW engine cannot provide a hardcore puppteteer a solid game experience.

Which is you having a problem with the other classes “not” being actual casters which they should be.

Then… why play demo? if it is not fun then you are clearly playing a spec you don’t even like in the first place…

for all intents and purposes it is exactly the same as it was other than you are now actually summoning demons and being a warlock rather than pretending to be a demon hunter.

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Demo was never about summoning an army of demons to serve you, it always was a spec about you and your main demon.

It had such ideology for a very speciefic reason - game engine could’t provide a solid gameplay experience for puppeteer class…and nothing has changed since then, only current devs are don’t care.
Even in lore, maintaining control over one demon(not imp) is quite hard, two is impressive, but and army this is BS.

Metamorphosis for the warlocks are not the same thing as Meta for DH, yeah it serves the same goal and shares the name, but from pure class fantasy it is a wastly diffirent abilities, and their gameplay execution was diffirent…not to mention that current DH meta is a silly damage CD with fancy model swapping, while MoP/WoD demo Meta was a solid gameplay mechanic.

All those casters who don’t need to cast perform extremly better in any dynamic combat then any warlock spec.
With same logic that you apply, i have a question, why 90% of melee classes have acces to range abilities? They are melee, they should have only melee range spells.

Because every other class/spec is also boring and gimped. Luckily I stopped playing till next patch

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Demo needs alot of work,but they should keep this massive demon summoning we got,and a way to have fewer but more powerfull demons,the old upgraded demons and like Pitlord(our version of army of dead/the infernal rain thing i forgot name of destro has) and more options for perma pets.

Also i love the playstyle of summoning demons we have now,and id hate for it to go away. Demon summoning is what a warlock is all about

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old demo with becoming a demon should be option,just as current style of summoning demons is what youre all about(which fits way better imo for demo then becoming a demon) should aslo be.
Or even have both be different specs(like 4th spec for locks).

Demo needs work but it doesnt need to go back to only being about becoming a demon.

I think cast times should bbe reduced of multiple spells,the portal and tyrant be instas. ANd just have more focus on stronger and fewer demons and less imps,imps and more imps + dreadstalkers.

More infernal,doomguard,terrorguard,abbysal,fellord,a Pitlord or even a doomlord(way bigger and more powerfull doomguard(like kazzak is) as the Big Cd’s like army(could even be glyph)
Heck even a Felreaver as even beter version of Abysal or a glyph would be amazing.

Id hope for those that liked the old meta comes back,but i hope wont be forced and the demon summoning part of demo will be gone .

,aransi(spider lady demons). more of succubus and shivara

I actually levelled a warlock a little while ago and quite frankly demo was the more fun spec out of the 3 in terms of PvE, it is in effect what a caster should be and represents what it should mean to be a spell caster.

It is basically the best caster in the game because of this, it stands and casts and does idiotically high damage if ignored, the very thing a spell caster should be, not this fire mage nonesense where its stupidly mobile AND putting out huge instant cast damage meaning theres no real way to counter it since it can also do so safely at 40yds rather than correctly being forced into the 20 yd range due to fire mage spamming instants, as should any instant cast focused caster.

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