I can definitely see it. And based on their original post, the rewards do feel like a big reason why. And in a way that’s honestly fine? It’s pretty limited rewards-wise per week but at the same time you can play it as much as you want to. It’s also really rewarding when you can earn said rewards.
Going in blind, curious how they play out meself. The DISC belt’s abilities got buffed too as they were originally beyond underwhelming, like a 0.x% increase in DPS with it.
I love them and working on doing 1000 of them for achive without spamming level 1’s and doing the short and sweet Undermine delve cheating way 
I don’t actually play healer in delves, it’s just too slow for me.
Playing all 3 DK specs or shadow with DPS bran.
I guess VW disc would be fine but oracle is just zzzzzzz in delves.
I think you’re getting confused, D.I.S.C. is a new belt like the ring off Siren Isle [you can customise effects off it], it’ll be scaling up to ilvl 701… wasn’t talking about playing as a Disc Priest.
2 Likes
There is timer in M+
Ahh never heard of it lol. 
Who cares about all that…
Delves 11 and the endboss in ?? were cleared HOURS after S2 went live. Not days. Not weeks. HOURS. With S1 gear. Its literally like killing Durotar Boars in difficulty.
If I wanted to AFK that hard I would simply play something else. Simple as that.
And if I wanted to play alone, I would 100% play other games, in particular SP games. Why? Because SP game is designed from the ground up to offer a cool and engaging SP experience. Unlike wow. Which is designed as an MMO from the ground up but tries to shoe-horse some half-baked solo content.
And that is why IMO :
I do believe Delves is a problem. But not because it exists. But because of the rewards it gives. Killing Durotar Boars should not give you heroic gear.
And if I was a Blizz executive (which I am not) I would stop playing around with solo content. IMO wow is a game that can never in 1M years offer an engaging solo experience. By design.
So they should instead accept that fact. And pool all their resources into group content which is the strength wow has. By making wow more engaging, better, and more rewarding for more people. Including those that currently play solo. Because they have reasons to reject group content. So blizzard should address those reasons.
I could give you a list of things that they could change. But its too long. What I will say is that some of the most impactful things they could change have been the same since 2004. And Blizzard is WAAAAYYY overdue in those reforms.
So IMO that is the problem. Blizzard is too slow to adapt.
Uda have you ever considered that delvs are not designed for you and your kind of players?
From all the feats I have seen you talk about on the forum it is pretty apparent that you are not an average casual player.
I would even say you are far far above that.
You saying that you and your friends blasted through hard mode and tier11 in hours after release in S1 gear is just as unsurprising as you saying that block of butter stood no chance against your flamethrower.
And what’s the problem with it dropping HC gear? I’m sure delvs aren’t a gear path players of your caliber pay attention to anyways
4 Likes
That is not what I meant. This is what I meant:
- If a subset of players could rush through Delves 11 in 630 gear 1h after S2 went live, then when everyone else has 670 gear they too will rush through it 2 weeks after S2 went live.
Makes sense now?
I am the average casual player. I play 2h, 2x a week. 4h total. And in those 4h I do 4 M+ dungeons. I dont even cap my vault. And I pug all that of course.
Think of it this way. If the Hall of Fame (100 guilds) cleared Mythic Gallywax 2h after the season went live with S1 gear… wouldn’t that be “suspicious” ? Or if people went and did M+22 (max possible level) hours after the season started with S1 gear… would not that be “weird”?
Because gear is shared across all game modes. When certain trinkets only drop in Raids, or only drop in M+ its a problem people complain about all the time. I refer to the “Dinar” posts you probably remember clearly.
One of the issues this creates for example is that Delves invalidate keys 2 to 7. And LFR and Normal raids.
So 1/2 of M+ and 1/2 of Raids are pointless.
Not to mention that Veteran and lower gear are absolutely useless. Nobody has that, and they are only “useful” the 1st week of the season. After that, it’s as if they did not exist. So 1/2 of the gearing process is completely invalidated. We all jump straight to Hero gear and sit around waiting for the time-gated Myth track gear. Which is so boring.
All because everyone and their grandma can jump into a Delve 8 and clear it in 5 minutes with their eyes closed.
Makes sense?
Why would it be weird?
These are just people that made WoW their life and they play on a completely different level.
They cleared Mythic Gallywix 2 hours after season start in S1 gear.
I finally beat Gallywix heroic last Friday near the end of S2.
Different kind of players, different kind fo goals.
One has nothing to do with the other.
Because catering to the top 0.1% is a bad idea. You know it. But that statement is also true if you cater to the bottom 0.1%. That is also a bad idea.
Let me put it this way: Once people achieve their goals. They usually stop playing. So. Draw a Gaussian curve with “level” on X axis and # of players on Y axis.
The way wow works is that that Gaussian curve will slowly move to the right. As people achieve their goals (or give up and get bored), by simply L2P or gearing up. Then they stop playing.
https://raider.io/stats/mythic-plus-runs?season=season-tww-2&groupBy=period
Its what explains that curve right there. Why there are less runs as the season progresses.
So. If you make M+ so easy that everyone gets what they want on day 1, then that “curve” will be super steep. Tons of people playing on week 1 and 2. Then literally nobody by the 1st month. But turns out that the season lasts MONTHS. Not weeks.
But blizzard cant make things too hard either. If they do, people will quit before reaching their “goals”. Cause its too frustrating to get them.
Its a difficult balance blizzard has to do. But I can 100% guarantee that going too much on the “easy side” is as bad as too much on the “hard side”.
And Delves in particular create this issue here:
Because when I refer to “difficulty curve” I include ALL of PvE. Not just one sub-set of it. And you should too. Because gear is shared across all of PvE.
When its not shared across all PvE then Delves could be as easy or as hard as blizzard thinks it has to be. Independently of what is happening in M+ or Raids.
Okey so what’s the solution then?
Make the higher delv levels so hard they basicly don’t get cleared by casual players. And I still think they are who delve kinda got designed for.
Or do we lower the gear from delve so they are not worth doing since they would reward the same as a world event or a world quest.
And please remember not everyone can go blind through a 8 in 5min
Also who is the one that is deciding what content is to easy for the gear it gives?
You? Or me?
If we ask an mdi player he would probably say everything below +15 is easy. So should these keys only reward normal gear now cause there are players that think it’s easy content?
What’s your source that delves are the bottom 0.1%?
Where do you pull these numbers from?
You’re generalizing too much.
You assume everyone plays M+ dungeons, and that’s simply not true.
Sure, it can be a majority of the player base, but a lot of people simply never touch mythic dungeons.
And they will not touch dungeons regardless of how easy you’re going to make it.
Same as “not catering to the 0.1%”, not everything revolves around mythic dungeons.
And that’s just not true.
Some gear is shared across all of PvE, namely heroic drops and lower.
Mythic+ gear is isolated to exactly 2 sources in the game.
And that’s exactly what’s going on.
We got Delves and Bountiful Delves, and now we’re even getting the extra hard mode on them, because clearly people are doing this content and Blizzard saw it.
Heck, we even have the ?? instances that some people love and others absolutely hate.
I know. But I dont care about them. For the same reason I dont care about the top 0.1%.
A normal person does a Delve 8. But instead of 5 min maybe 10 or 15 min. But still blind and half AFK.
Yes. And what would the problem be?
It would make it equal to all other PvE modes. Not everyone does CE. Not everyone gets title in M+.
And that’s OK. Whats the problem?
Dunno. Ask the guys at Blizzard that decide that for M+ and Raids. Those dudes.
Delve difficulty is just fine.
Doesn’t need to be changed.
Why?
Does it physically hurt when someone gets a hero piece gear from doing a delve?
Stop brining up this ridiculous argument just because the M+ is whining that someone runs around in hero gear.
Correct, I need around 15-20 minutes on average as tank to clear a Delve on T9+
Its not about seeing people running around in Hero gear. Why are people so focused on this.
Gear progression is the basis of any game mode. That is the reason why the higher the Delve level, the higher the gear ilvl you get as a reward. RIGHT? That sounds OK dosent it?
Its the same for M+. Its the same for Raids. Same concept. EXCEPT that gear is shared between modes.
Its a big problem for raiders that you can spam M+ and gear up fast. And now its a problem for M+ (and Raids) that you can spam Delves and gear up fast.
It means that the “gear progression” in M+ and Raids are limited ONLY to the top-end of key levels. Those that give Myth track basically. So it pushes all the “casuals” from those game modes away.
Because this is literally the argument brought up in EVERY.SINGLE.THREAD.
It’s always the same complaint that Delve/Casuals/Solo people “have to easy access to the gear”
Exactly, it’s the basis of the game mode. Not the game mode in itself.
Explained previously, it’s not.
You want the absolutely top gear, there’s only one or two ways of getting it.
Is it though?
If raiders can just spam M+, why does it take so long for every guild to clear Mythic Raiding (outside the previous top 100 guild mentioned).
Why don’t they just spam M+ get overgeared and rush through the Mythic raid then?
It means that the “g
So you do see the problem that top end gear is limited to just two instances?
And casuals simply do not care about these modes.
Anyone running M+ keys above 10 or mythic raids is anything but a casual.
I reckon that the number of people Delves are catering to is quite a lot more than the hyperbolic “0.1%” you pulled from… let’s not go there, in fact, i even dare say that that group is sizeable enough that Blizz will want to keep them around, regardless of how apparently offensive their presence (And that of content catering to them) is to you.
As for “Gearing up too quickly”, between getting hero-track gear in every slot (That i don’t have a crafted item for) and gradually upgrading everything, Delves are keeping me busy for the whole season, which is a damn sight better than “Do the casual stuff for 3 weeks, at which point it doesn’t progress you anymore, then wait for the next season”
1 Like
I did not say Delves are the bottom 0.1%. I responded to the comment that “not everyone can clear a Delve 8”. And my answer to that is: Those who cant with 670 ilvl are the bottom 0.1%. Or bottom 1% or whatever.
That is like saying: Not everyone can clear LFR. Or M+2. Sure. There are people that cant. But those are few people.
That is not what I am saying. What I am saying is that those who do play M+ and Raid will begin by gearing up in Delves. So their “season” of M+ begins by spamming Delves, gearing up, and jumping straight to a +7. Same for Heroic Raids.
So. You get some Hero Boots from delves and they instantly disappear and stop working if you enter an M+ dungeon? Is that what you are saying?
Did Delve gear get the “PvP treatment” at some patch I was not aware of?
That is something you assume. Maybe its the opposite you know. Maybe people got bored too fast and are not doing them anymore.
So? Its not MY argument.
Im not talking about that. If it wasent clear enough.
There are 4 “tiers” of gear. After 2 weeks of the season, thanks to M+ spamming and Delves everyone sits on Hero gear. So in practice, there is only 2. Hero and Myth.
So the “gear progression” for ALL PvE game modes is reduced to 2. One of which is time-gated at 1 peice per week on the vault (myth track). So now, we all spend 3 months just waiting around for that Myth track piece.
THAT is the gear progression at the moment.
So what is my point? YES. Its too easy to get Hero gear. 100%. In Delves. In M+. And in Raids. And YES. It IS a problem.
Who cares about Mythic raiders.
What matters is that it takes too little to clear Heroic raid. For that same reason. Which is what most people do. My guild included.
We cleared Heroic Gallywax in 1 month and now my guild is empty untill S3. That’s not fun.
But why would you run anything bellow mythic raids or m+ bellow a +10? THAT is my point.
You are sort of getting my message wrong here.
Its bad game design to shoe-horse people into M+ if they dont want to. But it’s also bad game design to shoe-horse people into Delves.