There is a gradient of “skill” on everything. Delves included.
There are really good players and really bad players.
What I was saying is that wow in GENERAL should not be designed for the really good players. But it should not be designed for the really bad players either. It should be made for the “normal players”.
And since MOST of you are currently clearing Delve 11s… MOST… Then there is a problem here. Its not rocket science.
MOST people are not clearing M+22. And MOST people are not clearing Myth Gallywax.
Just quoting this snippet, because this is the key issue.
You assume people WANT to run M+10 or mythic raids.
And that assumption is just wrong.
And why does it matter how people get their gear?
Isn’t your goal, “you” as in a M+ runner, to clear high difficulty dungeons?
Why does it matter if the starting point is a Delve, a Raid, Vault or previous M+ dungeons?
Your gear is a means to an end, that end in your case being to clear let’s say a +15 dungeon. Who cares where you got the gear from, as long as you can clear that dungeon.
You do understand the likes of Liquid/Echo/method most of there team have real life jobs too and family’s just they use there vacation time for the WFR. Some work in banks and others in fitness but to say they have made wow there life is very wrong.
One does not negate the other.
You don’t become someone playing on the same level as Liquid/Echo/Method without putting in the effort, dedication and learn the ins and outs of the game.
Not something your average player is going to do.
They will look at a guide, follow it, and complain if it doesn’t work the way they hoped it would go. Same how you don’t see these people clear a mythic+ raid either.
EDIT: Just to clarify, my statement was not talking down on them as no-lifers, but you can just go to their website and see the requirements for yourself, or how they describe themselves as persons. They invest a lot of time and effort into the games they play, that being the key point.
Excuse me? That is not what I said. I said the oposite of that.
Let me just explain it slowly:
There are posts in this forum of people complaining that M+2 and M+5 keys are empty. That nobody plays there and its hard to find a group. Do you know what people suggest in this very form that they do? Find friends? Roll a tank/healer? NOPE.
People say: Do some WQ and Delves. Get Hero gear. And jump straight to a +7.
So now, that individual only has 3 key levels of progress. After which he will stop playing.
That is not good.
If I want to play M+. I play M+. If I want to raid. I raid.
What is an absolute perversion is this statement: If I want to M+. I have to Raid. If I want to Raid I have to M+. And/or some Delves in between.
THAT is a perversion. Why is this surprising?
And why would I care? As in… why would I bother doing Delves to gear up for M+? Well because since it’s a GROUP content you are at a disadvantage to those who did. And then you come back to the forums complaining that you dont get invites.
So basically. Early in S2 I myself went from a +2 to a +10 in the 1st week. Because I could. I did not need any Delves to “help me” along the way.
But that is because I was lucky. Not everyone is so lucky. Those that are not, get left behind by those who can.
The only way to not be left behind is by doing Delves. And I find that a perversion. Because its 100% unfair.
Imagine for a minute that those “maps” you need to get hero gear in Delves ONLY droped in M+. How much whining do you think would happen? How many delvers would be crying saying “I dont want to do M+… why should I do it”…
That I agree with.
That’s just avoiding the problem, and those people will be completely useless in a +7 run because of the mechanics.
But isn’t that more of a problem with M+ in itself than having access to hero gear through Delves? Not saying that you should clear the keys in sequence, causing forcing that will probably put off more people than anything.
That would kill delves on the spot.
Force any Delver like me to touch a M+ dungeon, and we will simply not do it.
Same for the weekly quest to do a mythic dungeon?
Not doing it, I’ll just skip it and pass on the reward.
So yes, I agree that forcing people into specific content is not the way.
But how would you solve the M+ key problem, without touching delves.
Good question, what exactly is the problem in most people clearing Tier 11 Delves?
Not all content has to be a huge trial of skill (And add-on setup), Delves are content designed to be repeated, farmed for crests, by the average player, because for every person who enjoys “Rising to the challenge” of very difficult content (Whether M+ or Mythic raids), there are 20 (Conservative estimate) who think “Forget this, i’ll go do something more fun than repeatedly running headlong into a brick wall” after several wipes.
M+ has its own difficulty curve. From 2+ to +12. Each giving its reward appropriate to its difficulty. You might agree, you might disagree. Lets discuss.
But we cannot have any sort of discussion about the M+ rewards with 2 more game modes in the background (Delves and Raids) affecting our own discussion.
For example. Should there be Myth track gear drops in M+? Yes or no? The answer is NO. Because if there was, it would invalidate Raids.
For example. Should there be Veteran gear drops in M+? Yes or no? The answer is: It depends on what Delves drop.
As you can see. Its not an M+ problem. Because as I said many times. We share gear between all PvE modes.
So if you agree with me. Then there are only 2 options.
Either divorce all the PvE game modes as PvP was. OR… equalize the difficulty/rewards. That is the only way.
And Delves are not the only ones in need of equalization. The Dinar discussion put in evidence the disparities between M+ and Raids as well. And my answer to that is the same: Either divorce or equalization.
I an happy to see that now you see the problem. How unfair such a situation is.
You cannot solve any M+ problems, or Raid problems, OR even Delve problems with out considering ALL PvE game modes. BECAUSE we share gear.
That is the issue here. That we share gear.
So we either divorce. OR… we equalize. And equalization implies compromise. Some things have to give in Delves for M+. Some things in M+ have to give for Delves. And raids as well.
And that is why I suggested increasing the difficulty of Delves. To have a “CE” of Delves if you want that only a select few have the skill to pull off.
Because that way, you can give Hero gear at an equivalent difficulty level of a +7 and Heroic Raid.
On that I don’t agree.
Not that I don’t see there is an issue, but I disagree that gear should only obtainable from doing specific content.
There is a reason people flock towards Raids, Mythic+ or Delves, and they should not be deprived of gearing opportunities just because they did not play a specific mode of the PvE game.
Thing is BiS gear is spread across m+/raids/delves ( some trinkets even in heroic item level are better then m+ and raid) so people feel the need to do all 3.
I somehow doubt that Blizz would reach some perfect balance here, simply cause wow is not a dedicated dungeon crawler game or something. Simply an example to get my point across:
A hybrid game for example Overwatch which is a team based shooter but you can also be a good player there with having a bad aim. Simply go for non aiming supporters or tanks comparing to a pure shooter game such as CS where your aim is the main deciding factor of everything pretty much.
So for overwatch, the devs need to split their resources and time to to make various system work together but they usually dont have enough resources to polish and make 1 system shine. While dedicated shooters can go even deeper into ballistic physics and try to polish their one and only main system.
TL:DR - Expecting WoW’s m+ just as polished as any dedicated dungeon crawler games is close to impossible. Since they need to make multiple systems work together, there will be compromises needed. The old saying “jack of all trades, master of none” applies here perfectly.
Making delves harder is not the answer either.
You can’t punish the majority of people running Delves just because some use them to jump keys in Mythic+ and be utterly useless there.
To put it bluntly, I don’t want to run harder content just because the Mythic+ community has an issue with someone getting a few heroic pieces through Delves and then being a problem in their runs.
Sounds more a better path needs to be made available for those wanting to run through mythic+. Because I’m fairly sure that gear isn’t what’s stopping them.
Well there isn’t much wiggle room left for Blizz to manoeuvre. Since Blizzard even announced delves as an “end-game pillar”. Their rewards need to at least match it somewhat to be called an end-game pillar…and not some extended glorified “world quest”.
Nobody said do harder content. Just simply no the maximum level possible so easily. Like literally EVERYONE else does. Nobody is forcing anyone to do a +22 key you know? There are level 2 to +22, and 4 raid difficulties for anyone to find their “happy spot” to live in.
Which kinda sais that if you don’t want to compromise in any way, in the same way I (as an M+ player) have to compromise because raids exist.
