I don’t really remember it, but when Cata came, the aspect of raids and dungeons were gonna be harder again got me back into PVE.
I didn’t really like them nerfing the dungeons back again so fast, but in the end they are just dungeons, ofcourse.
But your main point is spot on. Everyone was hoping and asking for harder PVE content, when that came, people cried, cried and cried and then cried some more. Then Blizzard nerfed it pretty fast.
Or the Halls of Stone RP wall… Omg i hated that place.
Yea, and after all the complaints they actually made the dragons scale with your gear, if you remember that, and guess what? People still hated it and left the group as soon as they zoned in to see it was that dungeon.
It was just to tedious and annoying.
Correlation does not imply causation. Just because you did a run with a toxic skip everything run on Retail RDF does not mean that toxicity is caused by the RDF system. It is not. That toxicity is caused by the rush mentality that Retail has for the introduction of Mythic+, a system that forces people to complete dungeons on time in a very optimized way, with a penalty for failing.
That happens because people on Retail played those dungeons for two years as max-level Mythic+ and now they expect everyone to do those dungeons while leveling with the same optimization as a timer Mythic+. Wich is absurd and there are some asking Blizzard to ban in Retail dungeon skips on leveling dungeon.
If you had joined RDF on another expansion dungeons, probably some made before Mythic+, you won’t find that skip mentality. I found Vanilla ones (revamped most during Cataclysm) to be the more chilling and relaxing ones. People on those dungeons are not so toxic with optimizations and skips. But probably you can’t if you have no character at level 50, in that case, you are forced into BFA and those at the dungeons that suck thanks to Mythic+.
And it looks like Blizzard is planning to implement a Mythic+ system into WotLK Classic. I think a lot of the anti-RDF people will wish Blizzard would have implemented the RDF, instead of what’s to come.
Or more likely they will find creative ways to blame the toxic community, that comes with Mythic+ on the RDF. Even though it doesn’t even exist in the game. But not being reasonable was never an issue for the anti-RDF people.
That still has more merit than your defense of the Dungeon Finder seeing as your only experience with it comes from a private server. I have no interest in debating with you (as we’ve already tried to no avail) but I think it is important for other readers to know that you’re promoting a system of which you’ve literally had 0 experience with.
First of all I think it’s funny that you invoke “causation does not imply correlation” and then you go on to explain how the timed aspect of Mythic Dungeons caused the rush mentality – as though that mentality didn’t exist long before the introduction of the Mythic Dungeon.
A tool that automatically create groups is not in and itself going to create toxic behaviour. In fact, the party leader of a dungeon in Classic pretty much acts the part of a Dungeon Finder. Unless the party leader asks for advice from the group or if you make recommendations that the party leader heeds the party leader will just invite whoever they deem fit and you have no agency over that whatsoever, right? The Dungeon Finder is just doing that for you, albeit with a lot less fact checking.
If there’s one component that is largely to blame for the toxicity we see in retail dungeons it’s the cross-server aspect. Cross-server is great at reducing queue times but it does severe damage to the social aspect of the game. People you meet through the Dungeon Finder are not relevant to you long-term. So you are less invested in them. And let’s say you actually did hit it off with someone through the Dungeon Finder, what then? Back in Wrath you could not queue for dungeons cross-server.
If you’re not looking for a social experience then the Dungeon Finder is great for you. Why should you care if the tank is a toxic scumbag so long as he gets the job done, right?
Ok so using the RDF in an WotLK environment is 0 experience to you, whereas ONE run in Retail, that has a lot of other features that obviously also influence the community is a noteworthy experience in your eyes?
It just shows how biased you are. And seriously I am also tired of discussing anything with you, because you fail to see any reason.
If you wanna dismiss him and his experience with it on pservers, what about all the rest of us then? All of us that have plenty and more experience with it? We promote it for various similar reasons all of us, but it comes down to the fact that we all think it’s a far better system then what tbc now has.
And speaking of tbc, there’s just as many toxic people on there now that there will be in wotlk.
Fixed that one for ya. Your welcome.
With RDF I’d put that person on ignore and never risk having to group with him/her again. That is simply not possible right now. Now in tbc, without the RDF, I risk facing the same toxic person every time I search for a group.
Yes, and you would have understood that if you read the remainder of my post.
I’m sure he would be heartbroken over that as he continues to queue and be an a**hole to potentially thousands of other players. But hey, at least you’re alright 
!
…? Amazing.
Yea, like that aint happening right now…
Here we do agree. It is just amazing how you fail to see that… Biased much?
I would actually argue that there will be more toxic people in WotLK. Because of the gating and elitism that will come with the new LFG-Tool. And if Blizzard really implements Mythic+, there will be a clash between casuals and sweaty players, that will be much worse, than what we’ve seen in TBC Classic so far.
And as I found the TBC Classic community toxic already, that’s not something I am looking forward to.
But it’s just an assumption of me, so it could turn out wrong.
You know what I do if I end up in a group with someone I know is a toxic scumbag? I tell the group: “Hey! That guy is a toxic scumbag! He did this and that in another dungeon I was in.” And if he’s not kicked then I’ll leave the group.
You know what you accomplish by putting one guy on ignore? Pretty much nothing. Chances are slim that you’ll run into the same guy again regardless whether you put him on ignore or not.
No random group will kick a player because you accuse him of something. Most likely they neither know you nor the other player, so it’s testimony vs testimony.
And if you leave, you will be seen as the toxic player by the group. And might land on an ignore list yourself. Not that it would really decrease your chances of joining a group.
Something like this only works if you know the players in the group. Fur random dungeons it’s just fiction.
Well look at us, 7 posts that contain practically 0 value. Forgive my snark but I couldn’t help myself, but I’ve done myself a disfavour as I’ve allowed you and Jazem to derail myself from the main point I wanted to make.
Cross-server is the culprit. Not the automation. The automation has issues of its own, sure, but it is not as damaging as the cross-server aspect. Period.
Yea fair point. I had wotlk with RDF in mind writing that.
Granted we ofc might be wrong, but we do share that assumption.
Just this really:
Plus the fact that you’re gonna spend/waste a good deal more time finding a new group if you leave.
Exactly. In tbc that is. And in wotlk without RDF this will stay true. You know what fixes that? RDF. Because with that you’ll never ever see that person you’ve put on ignore in your groups again.
That’s just an assumption with 0 proof. Actually I think I and others already pointed out in many ways, that the things you expect from cross-realm dungeons are already in the game without cross-realm. So adding cross-realm can’t have those negative effects you fear. But it will have positive effects.
I have not say the rush mentality didn’t exist before Mythic+. I said that toxicity he received in that dungeon was caused by Mythic+ due to people doing it at a max level for 2 years. They have learned to rush and skip that dungeon during BFA Mythic+.
All of this is irrelevant to the topic. The topic is about RDF is bad because he has received toxicity in a BFA dungeon for being in RDF. That premise is false. Someone who makes his arguments based on a false premise should be ignored, it is a fruit of the poison tree. If he want to argue against RDF he should do it without falsehoods. The good or bad of RDF is irrelevant for this topic because the topic is based on falsehoods, so there is no point on discuss about it here.
That could be one component that cause the toxicity but is not the only one. And that is why this topic is wrong. Because he is attacking RDF using precisely one of the toxic aspects of retail that is not caused by RDF. You are aware that RDF existed before people learn extremely optimized Mythic+ skips, right? People didn’t run dungeons with that level of optimization before Mythic+. That the skip toxicity of this topic is precisely only present on BFA dungeons, just the last ones retail players have learned to skip on Mythic+? People don’t play right now in Retail Pre-Mythic+ dungeons with that level of optimization.
Or your morale is so low that in your post of attacking RDF you are ok with deception, falsehood, and transgressing the truth to enforce your point of view. Call me naive, but I think that the end does not justify the means. If someone defends what I think is right but wrong arguments I will attack him.
Don’t you dare to impose your black and white point of view over me. You are I are not discussing if RDF is wrong or right. We are discussing if the OP is right about the toxicity he received on retail. The best you can do is to not assume I have any point of view about RDF because I do not need to have a point of view about a topic to argue that having arguments based on falsehood is wrong. I do not care if WOTLK will have RDF or not, but I don’t like people using false arguments that could impact the development of Classic WOTLK.
I mostly play WOW alone to see the story, both in Classic and Retail, and I almost no play group content, random or not. I could play all the game story alone combined between Retail and Classic, what I can’t play solo on Classic WOTLK I can do it in Retail, what was removed in Retail I can play in Classic WOTLK.
So, I literally don’t care about RDF.
Berny will ensure the slow pace by ganking people.
How do you want me to provide you with proof? You want me to find scientific articles about it? … Oh what the hell, just for you!
Eklund, L & Johansson, M. (2010). Social Play. Stockholm University.
http://www.digra.org/wp-content/uploads/digital-library/10343.55072.pdf
This was written some time after the introduction of the Dungeon Finder. Here’s something I found to be interesting:
Reputation and trust have been shown to be important in MMOGs [14]. Reputation, however, has only a local effect on the particular server where a player’s characters reside, since those characters are only visible to players on that particular server. The effect of ostracizing someone and reporting that character to a “ban-list” or using other means of sanctioning such as blocking that character from future cooperation has limited or no effect across servers.
Which is exactly what I was trying to tell Jazem; putting someone on ignore does not really make any difference whatsoever.
Crenshaw, N. & Nardi, B. (2016) “It Was More Than Just the Game, It Was the Community”: Social Affordances in Online Games. In Hawaii International Conference on System Sciences. https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7427655 (behind a paywall, sadly).
Okay so this one is perhaps more relevant when it comes to the consequences cross-servers has on the social aspect. Here’s a rather long but relevant quote:
2.1.1. Group Finder. A key change that affected social experience came with the Group Finder interface, starting in late 2006. Group Finder automates the process of finding others for the collaborative activities of “dungeons” (small group activities) and “raids” (large group activities). In December 2006, Blizzard introduced “Looking For Group,” the first version of Group Finder, named after a phrase players used when forming groups in chat channels. The interface allowed players to hasten the process of creating and organizing groups within a realm by advertising that they were looking for group members, or searching through a list of partially-formed groups. Even with Looking for Group, however, there were often still long wait times. In a patch released in December 2009, Blizzard attempted to remedy this problem by providing a larger pool of potential group members that drew players from multiple realms. While more players decreased wait times, the new system changed how players interacted within a group. For example, players were not concerned about maintaining reputations and relationships with people from different realms because they were strangers whom the player was unlikely to see again [7].
But when it comes to these articles the main thing anyone cares about is the results. This is what they have to say:
- Results
While social experience in WoW is central, it is also fragile and vulnerable to changes in the system. Players reported that changes have affected the social experience of the game, and contributed to a decline in sociality. Some did not mind this decline, as the game was easier and more efficient to play, while others were disappointed and felt that something important had been lost.
Now, I did not wholly read these. I skimmed through them. Perhaps if you look through them carefully you may find something that I missed that completely changes everything and puts you in the right!
Your argument is essentially that “Classic is already dead” because “no one is social in Classic”. And I tell you that that is not the case based on my experiences, and were they to re-implement the dungeon finder nothing would change for you but everything would change for me.
So if you want that garbage then go and play retail.
Cool find, I will take a look.