I’m just surprised they are so definite in calling you a darkspear, when the new options kind of left that open.
I wasn’t really surprised because I called it the second Danuser clarified what kind of treatment they were giving the new customisation options.
Oh well, anyone who depends on Blizzard for matters of their own RP has already lost anyways.
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The last step left is to declare that there is no official canon and the version Blizzard pitches is merely a suggestion.
For RP purposes I’ve been at that point for years. Headcanon is just as valid as Blizzard canon to me, if the players I care about use it. But sadly, a majority of players still take it seriously, going so far as to fill pages and pages of forum posts discussing it, as if it meant something… … … Huh.
They certainly can be vicious and cruel as they were portrayed in Tides of war. Their ability to go berserk is what makes them deadly foes. Devs didn’t have a problem to make word “savage” be a positive trait, we had entire WoD about it.
What is disgusting to me is that after so many years they still use the colonialist outlook when it comes to trolls. That they can’t have their culture explored and treated with respect like any other, they have to be split for our “reformed and good trolls” versus “the trolls who didn’t want to forsake their identity and allegiations and therefore are evil”. When most of the cases their motives are really relatable.
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Yeah.
But still, everytime they want to describe the Darkspear, they always go with the angle about them being “less troll” than the rest of the tribes.
They are always the oddity. Those that aren’t as fearsome, or savage, as the rest.
And at this point, its getting irksome.
Its like being the domesticated dogs, while the rest remain as wolves. Why can’t they leave the Darkspear as about as “authentic” as the rest of the tribes? Is it really that hard?
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i don’t think thats the meaning. I think they want to say that they are just less Xenophobic, canibalistic and violent then most other tribes. The only Trolls that don’t attack everyone else on sight are Darkspear, Raventusk and Zandalari. Trolls are mostly (unfortunately) not shown in a favourable way.
Funny that you mention that I was recently watching WC3 footage, where Warsong orcs went for lumber, and the very first settlement they meet are those belongingto Dark trolls, who additionally were sleeping and orcs without evena warning assaulted them and killed them.
You’d think that since they’re allied to Darkspears they’d come with mindset “hey, maybe they’d like to join the party too, let’s talk to them first” but nope the gamemechanics allows you to kill them and later recruit them for warfare.
Let’s get back sooner, When Thrall is still on EK, he meets Forest trolls minding their own business and sitting around cauldron - he assaults them without a warning and sais “can’t believe we were allied to them”. They didn’t do anything to him at any point and yet it was Thrall who was extremely hostile.
Then we have Farraki, who in vanilla were raided for loot only.
I even have this text here:
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/625441892661985332/664474391568187392/ffs.png
Or nelves assaulting trolls back in Vanilla because trolls told them that nelves came from trolls.
I can list examples on and on.
Trolls are savage and mostly hostile, but their sacrifices bring actual gains from their gods. They’re also capable of finding agreement and be up for cooperation. And yet they’re always framed as the bad guys even when they’re on the defensive. It’s really hard to blame them when they have xenophobic attitude when they’re treated badly most of the times as “hello” and everyone tries to push them out of their very home.
It was always appalling experience for me.
I totally understand your point, I really like trolls. Their aesthetic and history as the oldest sentient Race originated on Azeroth really fascinates me.
But even when there where only trolls on this world most tribes were in perpetual war with eachother and only a few tried a different approach.
Being hostile to other races is also understandable because of the bad things trolls suffered at the hands of pretty much everyone else (except Tauren and Draenei^^). But it’s not the best ground for a peaceful coexistence^^
The only hostility was among tribes who split after civil war in Gurubashi empire and who bullied Darkspears away.
Amani were united under Zul’Jin. Heck, even Revantusk still revere him.
Sandfury were all alone in Tanaris, and Drakkari were not split to smaller tribes, they were on their own.
We also have example of Shatterspear tribe who were okay to join the Horde and aid them even if it almost caused them their existance.
There are more examples of humans fighting each other than trolls in this game.
They even showed trolls uniting to big faction in Cata-MoP under single banner but they were immediately villan batted for wanting to get back their territories.
They even made Vol’Jin go to STV to warn humans who ventured into troll territories to make them “stop trolls take over STV” and making it look that trolls set up their ruins around human settlement to ambush it- What the hell are you talking about man?! STV is troll territory!
It’s like saying that we should aid the orcs in Elvynn forest so humans won’t take it over.
This is how backwards was the narrative.
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Actually, the Trolls lived in peace with the Night Elves in Shatterspear Valley, and likely on Hyjal too with the Shadowtooth Tribe (whom they allied with during the Third War).
The Darkspear Trolls were already in conflict with the Alliance by being allied with the Horde. Their hostile soldiers being targeted in a battleground is nothing particularly damning.
The Night Elves were actually pretty cool, if not friends, at least tolerant in having Trolls within their lands. It was their Darkspear enemies they had an issue with.
Though it always struck me as odd as of why would the Darkspear even come up with these claims, while Brann Bronzebeard was already publishing his studies on Night Elf evolution, it’s the Darkspear troops supporting the Frostwolves in Alterac we’re killing.
It’s very weird.
You’ve got to admit that in some rare cases it’s the Trolls turning crazy on wild dreams of world conquest and empire rebuilding.
I thought the Shatterspear’s change of heart against the Night Elves was pretty scummy to be honest.
The trolls which were assaulted by nelves were not shatterspears as far as I know. But if that was how nelves behaved then no wonder there was tension between them.
I was speaking about this quest :
https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=7365/staghelms-requiem
Staghelm has given the order. All trolls on the field of battle must be exterminated. Their preposterous claims of birthing night elves must be met with force and due prejudice.
So trolls are clearly crazy for wanting some of their territories back, but when humans have a wet dreams about taking back Lordaeron then it’s fine.
And no, I don’t think they’re crazy if their territories were wrestled from them from expansive races. If the right of conquest makes one right then they’re not guilty of showing exact same treatment as was given to them.
To be honest we know very little about this tribe, like close to nothing I don’t even know how Garrosh found them when they were hidden for years and knowing his attitude toward trolls. But what I did find scummy is that nelves were ready to completely wipe them out for regular attack on them.
The quest was to kill every single Shatterspear pretty much making them extinct tribe- so in a way I was happy to see them back in BfA.
Although ideally I’d rather keep them as one of WoW’s mysteries.
Holy F***
Fandral really got triggered. That sort of negationism would put to shame even flat-earthers.
I guess Cenarius kept his mouth shut otherwise it wouldn’t be Grom first who would strike him down. xD
They were Darkspear, the quest asks you to kill Troll players and Troll players are Darkspear.
You have been tasked with slaying opposing troll players in Alterac Valley.
Kill a troll and return to Athramanis at Dun’Baldar with Darkspear Troll Mojo.
You’re trying to portray the Night Elves as if going out of their way to attack the Trolls unprovoked, that’s not what’s happening here. Alliance and Horde were already in conflict. Night Elf combatants are killing Troll combatants on a foreign battlefield, they’re fair game to kill.
Not at all scummy.
The Shatterspear coexisted with the Night Elves for thousands of years and when Garrosh said “Want to kill your neighbours for some easy conquest under my banner?” these guys said yes with a smile. They deserved what the Night Elves gave them.
What do you even classify as a regular attack and how would you punish it if your opponent makes clear they will not stop until you force all of them to?
Yes.
If the Night Elves wake up tomorrow saying they want all former territory of the Kaldorei Empire back, how would you call that?
Yeah I read it later, still Darkspears are small in number, much smaller in numbers than nelves ever were, and their biggest crime was saying the truth, lol.
I was just showing it as example of nelf attitude toward trolls.
Justified genocide. Nice.
That regular warfare was used to get territories, not attempt to wipe them out.
Which was what nelves did. No matter if said trolls was elder or the child.
And we don’t really know the relations between them. It could’ve been that they were previously in conflict with nelves were merely hiding from them and joined the assault once they saw their chance to get out of Vale.
Granted, that is speculation but it’s as valid as any other.
Well I’d tell them “good luck” because majority of that is under the sea. And they did all by themselves because they just couldn’t have enough of power, influence and territories.
Trolls on the other hand were attacked by others who purposely wanted to take their territories form them. This is where the difference lies.
No, their biggest crime was being allied with the Horde.
Fandral’s attitude, more like, because at the same time this happened against Darkspear soldiers in Alterac, the Night Elves lived in harmony with the Shatterspear and the Shadowtooth.
No, it’s called reprisal.
Killing combatants is not genocide. All the Trolls shown to have been killed were fighting tooth and nail for their invasion to conquer Night Elven land.
Whatever happened to the civilians, from the children to the old, is unknown.
And I find it unfair to immediately interpret it as the Night Elves going hut by hut taking children from the breasts of their mothers and slitting their throats. This is never addressed, we don’t know what happens, your assumption is as good as mine.
Knowing Alliance, and Night Elf conduct, I would rather assume they were allowed to escape (as could be supported by the tribe’s resurgence, and another infamous treatment of civilians called Camp Taurajo).
This is absolutely not what happens.
“The night elves knew that the Shatterspear lived in their territory, but as long as the trolls were not hostile, they were apparently quite content to leave them and Shatterspear Vale in peace.”
This, for ten thousand years. It doesn’t sound to me as if they had preceding conflicts.
Because clearly, the Shatterspear were not hostile and neither were the Night Elves, leading to quite the impressive harmonious coexistence.
That the Shatterspear gleefully broke at the chance to expand themselves. Hurray!
But would the Night Elves be justified in “re-conquering” let’s say, the entirety of the Barrens, because it was Kaldorei Empire land in some nebulous, ancient period of time?
If the Trolls are always right in attacking because “you’re standing on my Troll land”, what would make a Night Elf any less right in doing just that?
Much like the Kaldorei Empire, attacked by the Zandalari in an effort to maintain Troll supremacy.
Not that different after all!
That’s not what quest was saying though.
More like there was no interaction between nelves and Shatterspears at that time. And while these were Fandral’s orders they were passed on by some other nelf NPC soother Nelves could “execute the order”.
The quest literally said to not let ANYONE alive. That includes non-combatants.
Genocide is an attempt to purposely drive to elimination race/ ethnic group.
Thankfully nelves failed at that.
oh got it:
https://www.wowhead.com/quest=13514/the-ancients-ire
While you’re here though, we could certainly use your help with routing the rest of their tribe. Go ahead and take the company of one of the Vengeful Protectors there and see to it that every last building is destroyed and every last troll killed. We can’t have them coming back for revenge when we’re less prepared, can we?
See above.
Interesting, You got direct source to this line?
I think they would if Tauren would conquer those territories from them, razed their villages and placed their structures upon their holy places.
I was saying that they were right for giving exact same treatment which was given to them. Trolls didn’t willingly leave wast territories for others to live on, those territories were taken from them by brute force.
Lol, Whut?
No it doesn’t, because there weren’t any non-combatants in the Shatterspear vale.
Not any that were shown.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Shatterspear_tribe#History
She was being too kind to the Troll invaders.
Seeing how the Shatterspear in turn were the ones actually kidnapping civilians and brutally torturing them for the sheer shiggles of it.
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Alanndarian_Nightsong
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Rit%27ko
Oh boy, we’ve got a lot of Elven land occupied around the world then, get ready for the Third Empire.
You know who tried to take territories with brute force, using vile tactics and targeting civilians?
You guessed it: The Shatterspear!
“Only the openly hostile troll nations drew the full attention of the elves. Despite the trolls’ attempts to keep this new race from claiming further territories, the night elves built up the mighty Kaldorei Empire that expanded rapidly across Kalimdor. Not since the Black Empire in ages past had a territory grown so vast in size and scope. The immense influence Azshara held over the world and its denizens eclipsed even Lei Shen’s wildest dreams of power”
Not so different after all indeed!
But hey this is ancient history.
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