Why did they ever bother with bringing 2H DK back if the spec is so weak right now you wont ever get invited to a real group? And, hilariously enough, the 2H version of it is even weaker rendering it useless as a dps. The best thing you can do as 2H frost DK is just staying in a city and larping as Arthas or whatever.
Why waste resources on bringing the 2H back? Just delete the spec, since it’s useless anyway, and stop this circus
Because it’s good in PvP?
Define “good” the only cemented good spot we are in in rated non chaotic 2’s or 3’s are the regular chillstreak setup and chainstun enabler with some comps, you can do that with DW, you might even do that better because of Razorice and Fallen crusader, even sanguination on the offhand can save you in some close situations.
But of course, outside that it’s mediocre to good, good only with the leggo that allows Frstwyrms fury to stun, but you mostly use that with the rated setups aswlel so go figure.
Actually its a breakgaming scenario who chose and lvl-ed frost, get stats for frost, legendary and…he is bottom spec, just no 1 need him - trash. Only viable in 3 s PvP arena with WW monk, coz WW monk broken.
Not broken, but good. I’m always top dmg in arenas and BGs.
Really good with Arms as well. I’d argue even better.
My experience is limited outside of a Arena with a few RBG’s, however i’d say that Frost is a powerhouse that just need a little bit of tweaking to be great.
A passive 20% slow on Frost Fever would be a great addition, for example.
2 to 4 more seconds on Icebound Fortitude etc.
I’ll have to agree with this aswell, we have power in the right circumstances, when supported or supporting our enablers or enabling others. we just need a little something for our baseline.
If there is a frost DK that can solo kill a healer with timed burst let me know… Then we will talk if its good or not. Because im pretty sure you miss either CC or you miss the burst. Or go Maldraxxus and hope the healer panics cause the covenant skill.
About the suggested classes here to start a comp with… Maybe they can do it solo. Thats why it works…
There’s been moments when i’ve popped all CD’s, hit a healer with several 7k+ Obliterates in quick successions and the healer just brushes it off with constant instant cast heals. Even if I chain CC there is so much healers can do right now to counter everything a single dps can do, with few exceptions it’s not even funny.
Looking at our PvP talents as Frost, we got 2 basically increases the…cooldown on movement and mobility skills… why would i choose this over:
I mean, if Delirum instead made the movement abilities 50% effective instead…
frost dk’s have some of the most powerful pvp talents in the game currently… chill streak is so easy to set up on 2 targets, and has a short cooldown and does so much damage. necrotic aura pretty much gives you a flat 8% damage increase and also supports your partner if they use magic. heartstop aura is the most broken talent in pvp because of how disruptive it is, we have the option for spammable roots, an 80% aoe spell damage reduction, extra on demand healing, dark simulacrum which is op at the moment because of covenant abilities.
all of these talents situationally are very useful and can/should all be played against different comps. also delirium does make movement abilities cooldown 50% faster, its 25% each stack and stacks twice.
I’ve gotten to a decent enough rating at the moment in 3’s and dk’s really aren’t as bad as everyone’s making them out to be. I genuinely believe that people see dk’s, especially frost, as an easy class to play and master, which is why so many people are stuck at 1400 rating and resort to complaining on forums.
If there isn’t a ww in the arena I typically top damage and can solo pressure the healer enough to force good cd’s without my teammate. Of course I can’t solo the healer but as you get higher rated no one class can solo healers so that really isn’t an important qualification for a spec.
My good sir, we have discussed this before and while i admit in my previous statements that we can indeed do that, but as before my argument remains the same, just because in specific situations with the correct PvP talents in conjuntion with the luck in facing the comp that those talents excel against coupled with flawless execution in a semi controlled and semi random closed enviorment like the Arena, 3’s even that truly shows the utility and supporting manner of this specific loadout with two other dozer of classes (take your pick) does not make this class okay, or even best melee/up there with the high rollers like some influencers say.
Again and again, i get where you are coming from, your experience in your area is apparent, and what you see and can deduce and speak of of your experiences is truth in itself…but…
The current arena stats show a grave class disparity, as it often does it is not only us that suffers from blizards neglect, but in the last 5 years i wont budge from my stance that we are indeed the most neglected and ignored class/spec (frost), let me turn this around, from where i come from, and my experiences, which also is many of the faceless brothers and sisters that play this game and class come from, The state of this class/spec(frost primarily, but we all suffer in the DK) is not good, the baseline is not well thought of despite it being simple, the mastery has not been looked at since cataclysm (frost), and the RNG of runicempowerment is feast or famine, sink or swim, exactly like the priests worded it, but they got addressed, and love, we have not for a long time, ever since they made runic empowerement a frost only thing i have been annoyed, because you could choose, i used Runic corrupton in the choices of the talent tree when i could for example… But im getting of on general frost Dk problems here, my point is that another poster made a point from the US forum stating that our PvP performance will always be volatile because our baseline is very lacking and simple yet not good enough at the same time.
Now i will return to what i mean by my experiences, my observations etc, that has changed somewhat since i tried using the talents you suggested to support a skirmish arena mate or randos in BG’s. mixed results… but positive, yet it felt very restrictive, very…crutchy, one trick pony etc etc, and if that works and is well designed integrated into the baseline it should be fine, but it is not, we have a toolkit that is hammered by PvP only nerfs, and pvp talents that…no, does not bridge the gap but gets us a new job, supportive fluffer and pressurer, the annoying peeler being obnoxious etc. Now it is not all doom and gloom because again with the right setup and corcumstances and teammates and enemies even you can perform… and broken clocks to aswell twice a day, delirioum and heartstop is good dont get me wrong, but if their cooldowns is already ready and its a matter of “bullcharging” and they win it does nothing etc etc, Dark simulacrum is a wildcard, because according to me when i tried to use it all through BfA, it did not scale spells properly and other things, perhaps the covenant spells are so powerful ot does not matter but who knows.
My long winded point when going of on tangents is that the few people that play this class in regular content, semi competent PvP… or even rated is shrinking month after month, due to how the whole house of cards is built up, there is so much issues that even the crutches in PvE, BoS mainly… and PvP. chill streak, the pvp talents either has to be so powerful to offset the absolute failiure of the baseline or useful in support that others want you for their specific comp or setup for something memey that also works.
i get that you can perform and be useful, even apply damage pressure in the right moments, i do to in my content and PvP encounters with randoms, and i also lose hard to people better than me or better gear. not slightly,we lose hard, i applaud your skill in being able to stomach the state of the gameplay and the skill in surviving in rated enviorments, 3’s and that chaos, past combatant or such i believe but the ugly truth is that the average joe and faceless player is not the Fatality or elite player with the attention and skill needed to perform in the very narrow niche we currently occupy in such PvP.
Closing of i had a suprised shaman telling me to go Unholy in a battleground yesterday because “who plays frost xD”
it hurts.
Chill Streak only does great damage when it bounces… Otherwise its just a 5k crit or something. So it’s not reliable in my opinion. Also it just should be a melee skill cause the range viability is just crap.
Yes heartstop aura is OP if the fights take long enough. Otherwise waste of slot.
Talented AMZ is very good. But good players know what AMZ does… And it pretty much penalizes yourself because you need stick in the area. If I see AMZ as magic dmg dealer I just ignore. The DK either gets out or he will not reach me. It’s basicly only good for the healers and ranged classes in your team.
You want ret pala see solo healer? Not that hard. Just keep burst rdy and when healer is like 50% hp stun and nuke it… like 20k dmg in 2-3 skills will end him. You cant do this as DK. You lack the burst to kill in your CC. And especially since part of burst is based on proc.
Warrior have finisher skills. Mortal Strike and just more chances against healer to kill it. Im pretty sure about that.
Same goes for many classes. And what does DK has? Supportive skills that are not much benefit for the class itself. And anyone can pressure a healer nowadays. Except rogue maybe outside of burst.
The important qualification is being able to down a healer when the time is right. And dmg doest say much cause 400-800dmg ticks on 3 person at same time is gonna screw that total number. And the only real pressure is inside POF. Smart players will notice when you are the frost pillar. Then just try avoid the DK since HB is just a joke and make the DK waste his burst on COI.
In my opinion it is pretty easy to counter the frost DK. Even when it has its moments. Other classes can just do a better job. Also just hump the DK. It will die most easy cause of the crappy def cooldowns it has. And one good burst on the DK and it probably blew all its CD…
nobody cares about pvp
It’s ok. I’m sure you’ll be able to climb from 1.4k if you try harder.
Playing a bit of PvP and having a nice climb to 1600 before we stopped for the night, i got to say yes, Frost DK’s are pretty decent. Not great if you compare us to the current OP and viable classes, but you can make it work.
But as mentioned, we’re basically trying to run up a slight uphill, while some classes almost got a freefall downhill in how we perform. We just need that uphill to be straight and we’ll be fine.
Something that i do think we could use is something more to deal with the MASSIVE mobility some classes have. Making the PvP talent Walking Dead from blood a baseline PvP talent would be perfect for it, and fit the DK fantasy so well.
Blizzard: “Death Knights hit folks too hard…sometimes, let’s nerf! that sh*t!”
Meanwhile, in PvP:
“(insert scrublock here>'s Chaos Bolt hits you for 14,000 damage.”
“(insert hunturd here>'s Aimed shot hits you for 12,000 damage.”
“(insert scrubrogue here>'s 3 buttons rotation hits for all your hp in a stun, you die”
“(insert scrubret here>'s Templar’s Verdict hits you for 13,000 holy damage.”
“(insert scrubmage here>'s Greater Pyroblast hits you for 12,000 damage.”
“(insert dr00dscrub here>'s Starsurge hits you for 13,000 damage”.
Blizzard, excelling at logic since 2004.
my dude here is the problem. You have no pvp experience at all and so you actually can’t have any idea what you’re talking about. Im sure you do a lot of bg’s and skirms but that is the least accurate representation of dk’s performance in pvp and it shows in what you said.
its so easy to make chillstreak bounce on at least 2 targets if either you simply time it right, or take advantage of death grip to create two targets for it to bounce off of. in both scenarios, this is a very easy thing to pull off.
heartstop aura is op regardless of the length of the area as it affects all cooldowns, not just defensive/offensive. take a mage as an example. heartstop aura slows down blinks, phoenix flames, frost nova, fire blast etc. this is insanely useful as it will simultaneously slow down their offensive capabilities and their utility and mobility within game.
killing a healer thats already at 50% health is neither solo’ing, nor hard. classes that can 100-0 a healer is a problem, but if you play the game right and switch to the healer on a stun without trinket, while they’re at 50% hp, it should be a solid kill most of the time; thats literally how pvp works. Also you need to remember that arena is a team game and so you shouldn’t be expected to solo kill a healer in most games.
the important qualification is not being able to down a healer when the time is right. that’s one tactic that is viable when you’re 1400 rating because healers are typically trash at that mmr. when you get into the higher brackets and healers have some sense of game awareness they simply wont let you just nuke them down. Dk’s, like a lot of melee classes atm, have amazing cleave pressure, meaning that often there will be potentially 2 kill targets that can both die at any point, making it extremely hard for healers to keep both their dps at full health. If you pop pillar of frost without grip/slows readily available then you aren’t playing your rotation correctly. if you cant burst a target successfully, without them kiting you etc. then you just aren’t playing well. its as simple as that. burst at the right time, not just as soon as it comes off of cooldown.
You forget insert frost DK… 7k Obliterate if all stars align…
Fun fact… My prot pala does a 7k judgement if all stars align…
Don’t worry I know all about burst at the right time and how important CC at the right time can be. My prot pala can do it very well…
And yes im not the best player… I never said I was good. I just said the problems I felt when playing my shelved frost DK…
You see the real problem is still the burst window of the squishy frost DK compared to like any other class… I think you can barely call it a burst window because my prot pala can do the same in it’s burst window… Yet I survive so much easier. And then still I see the 10k crits other classes pull out of their hat.
And like others say Frost DK seems to be ok in 3s. But then they have heal and another class next to them.
And about the grip and slow. Yes I can time them correctly but there are counters against those to which can be timed correctly to. Thats why some fights take long. Because both teams wait for the other team to blow CD for next burst round.
It depends entirely on what classes you face, and if they are experienced players.
Landing it on a mobile caster + resto druid is hell for example. Landing it on 2 melee that are trying to nuke you down - easy.
I get what you are trying to say, that there are good elements to a Frost DK, but if you have played any other class this expansion (I played both monk, dh, druid, hunter) you can easily tell that they are far behind.
As a Frost DK you are literally zero threat. Just think about how you react to other players running up against you?
A fire mage? Oh sheet, gotta watch out for combust and not insta-die.
A ret? Fffffffff.
An arms warrior? I hope his bladestorm is on cooldown.
An enhance shaman? Pray he targets someone else with his insane burst.
A MM hunter? Freakin pillar hugging aint going to save me.
A boomkin? Ok ok ok, gotta kick that convoke in 0.1s.
A sub rogue? Alright, please be a bad player and not kill me in opener.
A Frost DK? Sweet, might actually win this game.
Am I wrong?