Fury despretaly needs singl target buff. I dont get blizzard logic when they nerf dps without proper statistics… And here we go again fury is last DPS in ST again fighting augmentation. Good aproach to “reworked” class which stayed literaly same as before.
Check logs on mythic raid and dmg to bosses …
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Reason why we are so low on ST, is because on 6/8 fights we are throwing our damage around to do AoE burst on adds.
Source:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38#boss=2920&difficulty=4&dataset=90
When we go for pure ST damage, we are mid to high mid. We are in quite a good spot balance wise.
The problem comes when blizzard decides to nerf us, to punish us, for doing our niche too well (AoE burst DPS). Then doubles down because of public outcry during HC week to also slap us with overall aimed nerfs - ignoring that Fury always is one of the stronger classes before people gets geared.
It is what it is.
Soon they will kill our most fun part - AoE burst, neuter it in the name of “balance” in raids. Then they increase our ST a bit to “compensate”.
It will really really suck. Yet, I see no world where they revert the AoE burst nerfs (because raid), and will only keep rolling over us with the pin, making our damage profile flat and boring.
Why? Because some devs just don’t care about fun over balance problems.
Well behind your logic is big hole. Check Sikran please it’s pure ST and nobody goes there with aoe build so… Where is your mid, mid-high dmg? Fury is last dps beaten by Aug.
Between first and last dps is 20% diff which is way too much.
And yet we are still speaking about slayer. Cause thane is sadly even worse on ST by another 15-17ish %
And u know what’s worse we should have rework but furry suffer with the same issues as before…
3 Likes
Let us take a look, Sikran.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38#boss=2898&difficulty=4&dataset=90
Fury is lower mid, 35k behind midpack, 50k ahead of Aug.
Now, if we go mythic, and go for the “best case scenario” for Fury:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/38#boss=2898&dataset=100
Still low mid, about 35k away from the midpack. 50k ahead of Sub and outlaw.
Mythic isn’t the best data set to base things around, as sample size is very low at the moment. So lets use HC to keep the trend, as we did with Princess. You argue that the high end of Fury’s end damage is at the lower part of the spectrum, about 1.15kk, while mid is 1.25kk. The very best sits at 1.55kk
I still find that totally acceptable, as we are strong within our niche. The one problem that pops up is something you did point out;
There is a problem that the gap top to bottom is too large, but that is in my mind more a problem of extremes towards the midpack - not a problem of being the worst at something. Us being behind 0.10kk is not an issue. Even with the 0.25kk or in total 0.35kk difference between bottom and top - I find is fine. Problem is if would be bottom in all scenarios (or flip it, top).
Now, we both probably agree it should likely be closer on boss damage, the most important damage form to do in a raid. Yet, if this difference is because of how those classes niche work then it is another question all together. In the case of BM, if in the scenario; they are doing great, not because of their overwhelming ST damage, but because the fight is high movement with lots of downtime for melee, making it as a ranged class shine: Then I am totally fine with that. We can argue about if that is so or not - but that is beside the point I am making and another discussion. I would only find it a problem if BM is better on ST in all scenarios (something they arguable are), that seems unfair to the classes that do not have the advantage of super-high mobility. Yet not necessary unfair to a Fury Warrior. As it isn’t really our field of play.
Acts of give and take are issues that makes balance in WoW so hard.
So in the scenario of high mobility and ranged is key, I am fine with BM’s big lead, just as I am fine with Fury Warrior being in the lead in burst AoE. Those are the chosen niches of those classes.
If you shrug these factors aside, this balls unto what I perceive to be the real problem. The simplification, removal and standardisation, not to mention punishing of niches. In the name of balance many ask blindly for all damage profiles to be alike and be ‘equal’ (or as close as you deem to be the correct value).
This to me is a huge issue and a true thorn in the side of having fun in WoW. For if we do not accept others can be better than us in their niche, how can we do anything but ask for the removal of our own.
If in our scenario as warrior, Fury Warrior does not accept that having the best burst AoE in the game requires a sacrifice in sustained single target damage, then how is burst even able to exist in a balanced state?
Asking for Fury to be in the top end of sustained Single Target damage is the same as to ask for the removal of our potential to burst. As having both is exceedingly unfair. As burst will have an adventage on fights with any form of high importance moment (like a double damage phase) or that got moments of downtime (where burst DPS being frontloaded suffers less).
Burst requires the ability to do tons of damage, then have a period of lower potential output. Or you can lower the burst, to having to lessen the impact on the sustained DPS, or you remove the burst to only have a stable DPS point equal to all others.
I hope you see what I mean and what I fear (you can lower the burst, to having to lessen the impact on the sustained DPS). It is the road to making everyone the exact same. As that to me; is extremely boring.
This is why I don’t ask for Fury single target to be buffed. This is why I find our current situation to be more than fine. If all raid and m+ fights were only pure ST patchworks, then we could start to argue the importance of all classes doing the exact same DPS in that mode.
Luckily we do not live in that world.
Why not replying with your main warrior?
1 Like
No reason in particular, this is the character I am apparently logged on - so it is the one you see. I guess?
Fury single target isn’t good, but the AOE is still really strong and Arms single target + two target cleave is really strong. Warrior is in one of the strongest places it has ever been for an expansion launch after Mythic tuning.
AOE is not strong only fits to raid profile but our aoe is actualy weak compare to others in the world where we are last dps in ST … if mobs last longer we drop significantly…
And also i wanna point that we are in universe again where our builders are doing way way more dmg than our actual spender rampage.
Its like 20-30% overal (crushing/raging blow-bloodbath/bloodthirst) to 15%± to rampage…
so Blizz there is ez fix to our ST with buffing rampage and it also buff little bit our sustain aoe … problem solved
AoE burst. I never mentioned sustained AoE. As sustained AoE situation is the same point as the ST situation. Burst vs sustained.
But ye - you clearly did not read what I wrote. So I will tldr for you:
- We can’t have both burst damage and sustained damage being high, because balance.
- If you want higher sustained damage, you ask for a nerf of burst damage.
- I want and prefer burst damage profile; so weaker sustained DPS to balance the profile is fine. As overall should in an ideal world equalise between the two.
So in short: You buff our sustained ST and AoE, you got to reduce our burst to compensate. This is the flattening, and what I fear and am vocal against. The only buff I would like to see is:
- More focus on AoE burst profile.
If you want to switch the discussion to AoE burst vs AoE Sustained, or raid damage profiles; my point stands as is. Burst is fun, that is where we should double down as a niche and removal of said niche will lead to boring gameplay.
Lmao. Warriors are already like 2.7k, you’re 2.5k yourself and complaining that Warrior AOE is weak when just look at any M+ highlight and watch the Warrior burst hit hilarious numbers.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/CXracV2qkfThLJDA#fight=1&type=damage-done
Rank 1 run, Warrior crushing the overall, crushing the highest peaks.
To be fair, while Fury Warrior is getting the job done - it isn’t the one to get the job done.
Lets look at it from a casuals perspective:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/39#class=DPS&aggregate=amount&sample=7&dataset=90
Overall we are not doing excellent, we are kinda a low-mid pick to do the one job we are brought to do - that being DPS. We used to be higher up, but that was before our burst damage got neutered - we can no longer really capitalise on that in keys. As even if we burst, it is just barely more than the next guy, it isn’t enough to carry over in effect into overall damage.
This is arguably fine though, as the point of burst vs sustain discussion discussed before in this post stands. It is problematic though, that fury is falling behind and so early in the season - when burst should have a higher shown value as mobs don’t live for as long.
- Please revert the Fury burst nerfs, ignore the raid; I beg.
We can’t really look at the 11+ mark on warcraft logs yet, as there is no sample size. Simply put, only the sweatiest of sweats are doing that content at the moment. There isn’t even enough logs for WarcraftLogs to start giving us stats.
But even if you compare 12 logs to each other, you will see that others do better than Warrior, in the same key range and same dungeon. Example would be:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/v4DWjqC7zXgtmh9J#fight=29&type=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/m4GbXfzBWZ1AMtQg#fight=20&type=damage-done
When it comes to peaks, in the logs shown, warrior peaked at 4 million. Enhancement peaked at 4 million, in the one linked above. The FDK peaked at 4 million. Affliction warlock peaked at 5 million. All that shows us is that, that is kinda what everyone does. Fury ain’t special. Not anymore.
Now my point is not to say that warrior are bad, yet I wouldn’t show to the outliers to try picture a pattern. Especially when the outliers shown as points of reference are outdone in the area you wanted to highlight.
So to make it crystal clear: Fury warrior damage is fine, it is good enough to get a 10 done in time. Yet, we are a farcry from the best option out there. We suffer from raid neutering out strenght (the AoE burst) in the name of raid-balance; that in turn hurt our M+ potential in our niche.
It will continue into the trend of us needing an overall buff to compete, as it is unlikely that we will see our burst being increased to compensate for lower output. Yet our output is lower to compensate for our potential burst output value in a different setting (Raid Vs M+).
So the solution, as I fear, is likely to come in giving us an overall buff, yet reducing our burst output.
This is the worst timeline if it happens. As such, the one thing we should put front and centre.
You really dont understand what you are talking about.
We are litterally dead last on Sikran, a single target fight where fury warriors spec into pure single target.
What we are good at is AoE burst damage, and we are admitably too good at that.
But we are not particularly good at sustained AoE damage, which is what matters in almost every situation except for nuking small adds that die in a short window. Like the small adds on Broodtwister or the webs on Queen.
While nerfing our burst AoE might make us less over powered in those two situations, it will also make us worse in other content like Mythic+ or other bosses like Silken Court where sustained AoE is more important.
Which is why we should probably be getting buffs to other parts of our toolkit to compensate. Nerf Bladestorm dps by 20% if you have to, but then buff Raging Blow dmg or Bloodthirst dmg by 10% to compensate.
If we once again look at that Sikran Mythic dps ranking, Beast Mastery Hunter is on top. Dealing 20% more single target dmg than fury warriors.
On PTR they are getting their cleave dmg buffed. Because they are admitably weak at cleaving.
But why is the best single target class getting their aoe buffed while the “best” aoe class isnt getting their single target buffed?
And just to finish this out, this is Bloodbound Horror Mythic dps rankings, a fight with cleave. Take a look at what Hunter spec is the most powerful in that fight currently. Its Survival with 1.003M average dps - and Beast Master is riiight behind, with 1.001M.
Beast Master is already one of the best if not the best single target DPS spec (if looking at Sikran) and one of the strongest hunter specs when it comes to cleaving. Why would its cleave get buffed? Because its weak compared to Fury?
Then Fury must have their single target buffed because it is even weaker compared to Beast Masters single target. (20% vs 15%)
1 Like
Thats a nice key you show there.
Would be a real shame if there were examples of other specs doing similar or better dmg:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/v4DWjqC7zXgtmh9J#fight=29&type=damage-done
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/m4GbXfzBWZ1AMtQg#fight=20&type=damage-done
Then of course we could also look at overall dps in 90% logs in +10 keys:
Warriors are not special in M+.
What we are good at is nuking small adds in the raid. Something i would be completely fine with getting nerfed to the ground. But if they are nerfing our burst they need to make our sustain damage better, preferably our single target dmg since that feeds into our sustain aoe through Improved Whirlwind.
It wouldn’t be a shame at all, nobody is arguing that Fury is the rank one dps spec, we’re arguing that Fury is good and has good AOE in M+, which it does. Don’t be a stupid.
That’s great that you’re upset and have strong opinions about the upcoming patch changes, but nothing I was discussing had anything to do with that, they weren’t even available when I posted it.
Ya going to just ignore the princess ST fight, where melee got more uptime?
Oh well.
Either way, you are clearly not engaging with the point I was making. You are also repeating the same missunderstanding as the guy before you - even after I tried to make it more clear. I even pointed out the BM balance point is another unrelated discussion.
If you want more ST DPS, and you want to gut burst DPS to gain it; fine - you do you.
But I will not personally agree that this is good for the spec, nor fun.
It is a question of what you value. If you value raid ST, then sure. Just know, I don’t. I value burst.
1 Like
Well I pointed more things than that u say. But few sec aoe burst is useless at least for me it doesn’t fits to cleaving mechanics doesn’t fits to m+ on high keys. Like shift so much power from our core and iconic spells to like so long CDs like 45sec OF and 1.5m or 45sec talented TR is just mess… We were for long time target capped cleavers which should be our strength. It’s just our burden but they somehow shift from it to something that doesn’t work.
And also for me the biggest issue is RAMPAGE DAMAGE!! for example u need to build around 80 rage which will be somehow crushing blow for 1mil crit DMG then raging blow for another let’s say 450k and bloodthirsty for let’s say 350k in best scenario u got enough in CDs but in bad scenario u will hit something again which leads you to almost 2mil builder DMG, after 2-4sec u can hit rampage and whooa u got full set of literally WILD STRIKES doin 180k + 150k + 290k crit + 370k crit (for example) so it’s 2mil builder DMG vs pathetic 1mil spender DMG (990k)
That’s reason I m pissed all about cause solution to whole furry problem is all the time there but devs are just that lazy to pick and double the rampage DMG! Which solves our problem in ST and we gonna be again strong cleaving machines as we were before that our strength not somehow these stupid bursty windows that means nothing in long term.
Sorry but world where you pushing rage builder that’s actually does DMG and then u push rampage spender for litery joke DMG …is laughable and such a iracional a ilogical design
I dont wanna be rude to blizzard cause i ve been in love with this company for more than over two decades but there is big but… Its more certain than ever that team behind warrrior desing is not playin class or they just got lack of experience and inteligence to bring that class to real function even tho the solution is on golden table front of them
2 Likes
Blizzard in TWW want you to juice Rampage with Raging Blow before pressing it as an incentive to not just press Rampage when it’s up, whether the numbers balance out is another matter. And yeah Fury has long had the issue of being cooldown heavy “hero or zero” but looking at the top M+ runs it’s clear Fury is in a good place.
Now that does change with the 37.5% reduction in targets for those big AOE’s, if they don’t do something to counter the nerf it will leave Fury as a dead spec. It also affects Arms, because of nerfing Roar, so it’s going to be interesting how they buff the spec back up, if they don’t buff the spec back up it will be useless in M+. But right now as it is in the game today, Fury is pretty great within its niche.