Game was better when it had borrowed power (grinds), but only the Legion iteration

As someone who personally hated borrowed power and the associated grinds during BFA and SL, my main issue with these systems was being forced into doing specific content I didn’t like in order to get the thing, and the direct implication that all the other content I’m doing, the content I like, is less than ideal because I could be doing that other thing instead.

This was solved from the get go in Legion, and then retroactively ruined for incomprehensible reasons. There is this very rewarding and satisfying feeling, both irl and especially in games, of achieving multiple goals at once while doing something. It feels good killing mobs that are simultaneously a part of 2 different quests, or a quest and a bonus objective. It feels inherently good because you’re being productive and can immediately see the fruits of your labor.

In BFA and SL, they destroyed this feeling by forcing you into Islands, Torghast, into farming Nzoth zones to access Visions, into Visions themselves for the cloak etc. Visions are the only exception here imo because they also rewarded GEAR, the core of the entire game, while the other activities felt awful to me personally because I 1) didn’t like them in general, 2) they gave no gear.

Legion was the happy place because the power grind was available literally everywhere, it was tied to interesting powerful weapons with artifacts, gear with legendaries, and also strengthens your bonds with your class through the Order Halls as the go-between. All of this was completely missing in later expansions, they nailed it on the first try and destroyed it afterward. Legion also had issues with lego RNG and the borrowed power locking you into one spec, but both of these are extremely easy to fix if you’re not an arrogant stuborn dev.

The bottom line is that when done right, borrowed power can be a great addition to the game, and may even be a necessary one to a certain degree. We’re 19 years into the life cycle of this game that’s build around player power and progression, and as I’ve come to realize now with DF, having nothing but the gear grind (a slow and boring gear grind at that, that revolves around currencies and upgrading items rather than getting the drops and buying them deterministically on a more frequent basis), is just boring after all this time for me.

It’s not 2008 anymore, having nothing but gear to improve my character feels a dull, especially when that gear is as boring as it is and has been since Legion. No sockets, no reforging, no hit and expertise breakpoints to chase as annoying as that was, there’s just nothing.

Another consequence of this is that open world content is entirely pointless and stupid because the gear ilvl caps at pathetic levels, and there’s nothing else of substance it can reward you with. Cosmetics are bad, there’s no power attached, and the world is dead with Zaralek possibly being the worst zone they’ve ever made.

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While i can agree, legion prolly had the healthiest design regarding borrowed power.

No i cant agree legion legendaries were good prior when they allowed us to buy specific legendaries

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Ha.

Ha.

No. Legion is the worst expansion of WoW.

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What people don’t understand, it’s that it was a pain for alts.
If they would bring borrowed power back, they should do it account wide.

Rn, I actually enjoy a lot not having to grind anything. Cause I can discover other classes/specs and get out of my comfort zone. Until pretty late in the game (S4 SL) I was pretty sure I won’t enjoy anything but my MM hunter.

Now? I play Survival hunter, Destro lock, Arcane mage. Why? Because I didn’t have to grind for them. I can just level it up to 70, put some random gear and hop in +2s and start the gear grind.

I can experience raids/dungeons from different PoVs. Played healer, tanks, melee dps, ranged dps, etc.

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Legion was amazing.It really managed to always give you something for your time.
I wouldn’t say Bfa was bad though,it just wasn’t Legion or better.
SL borrowed power if we can call it that, was strange…and anima was pretty much useless imo.

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They weren’t good because RNG was awful and they were locking you into a spec, but they were great because they were hugely powerful and impactful, and in many cases complemented your gameplay. Legendaries were much better than something like Azerite gear acquisition aside, but they were much better after 7.3.

Literally the best expansion ever but you do you chief. I will concede that it was bad for the top 1% of sweatlords who had to be on top of everyone else, it was amazing for nearly everyone else.

You’re right but the current solution isn’t a big improvement IMO, at least for me. While there are very few roadblocks with alts at this point in time, I also don’t really want to play them because there’s nothing out there except the exact same stuff I’ve been doing on my main.

There is no unique Order Hall for my alt with a unique campaign, no unique artifact appearances to unlock or a mage tower, no class mount, no legendaries to alter their gameplay, it’s just the exact same grind once again, and the grind is way too slow to be enjoyable more than once or twice for anyone but the most hardcore raiding/M+ fans.

I don’t find that interesting anymore after I’ve seen how much better things could be way back in 2016. Now we’ve regressed to the pre-Legion state of the game where “gear is gear and specs are specs”, but they didn’t add anything new to replace all that stuff they removed, there’s just less.

If it was Legion or even BFA, I would at least be doing world content with those alts because it was far more rewarding in comparison, now half of WQs are dragon races that offer 500g and the gear is outdated by normal dungeons.

Even something like titanforging and emissaries were absolutely massive for world content because they made it all the more satisfying and rewarding.

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Wow moves further away from being an open world, and more to instanced mode. Which means that a big part of the game, is/will be dungeons/raids playing with other spells/buttons/rotations.

I can tell from my experience that doing the same dungeon (as a stupid example, I’ll say Freehold 12) on my Vengeance DH felt a lot different than doing it on my Arcane mage, which also felt different from doing it on my Holy priest.

Also if we check youtube a little (and here we’ll only talk about retail, not classic, TBC and Wotlk), most people will search for guides about classes, dungeons, boss strats, routes, etc. Less and less people search on “how to do this quest” or “where do I find this”.

Personally I like it more like this, but I am more of I like challenges person, than I like to gather oranges:d

I feel like if they want to revive the open world, they shouldn’t do it with power levels. They should do it with cosmetics, gold, mounts, whatever. Because at this point in time, as the game is designed right now, there must be a line between casuals and players who want performance. Otherwise, none of the parties involved will be happy.

No. Just no.

Heres another gimmick, jump on the treadmill and grind for something that is totally irrelevant in the next expansion.

Legion it was something shiny and new, there was fun in powering up
BfA it was a chore, it felt draining
SL was just ugh. Id get KSM and AoTC and just leave.

All the above though, i felt hemmed into playing just one class, because the chores required before getting to the fun was so far away.

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As far as i know ur a pvp player and i can understand where the sentiment comes from, however i didnt say it was good, i said it wad the healthiest iteration of borrowed power.

Which is a different statement.

Not for anyone who pvp’d im afraid, pve experience i think most have good memories of legion.

But yeah the pvp community wont share that opinon. They butchered pvp in legion with weird systems.

I mean of course because one is self explanatory and the other isn’t and requires tons of research and testing. People go to wowhead for the few quests that aren’t immediately obvious from the get go.

That’s fair but I don’t think that’s true for a big, big part of the playerbase. An arcane mage and a DH definitely feel different, but no different class and spec is gonna make playing FH transformative and an entirely different experience for any players except for those that experiment and theorycraft their specs, rotations and builds.

Most people do M+ for the gear, and they won’t have a radically different experience doing the same dungeon only because of the technicalities of a spec.

I completely disagree because again, most players don’t fall neatly into this binary division of hardcore/casual. Most players do a little bit of everything, which is why being able to gain power everywhere was satisfying. Filling the open world with nothing but cosmetics takes the game back to the “raid or die” mentality that Legion partially saved us from.

This expansion is simply put, not popping off at the moment and it won’t any time soon, and a complete absence of the cool factor isn’t the only reason. It’s just boring and unrewarding unless you enjoy endless repetition and scaling of M+ or have a set group of friends to raid with.

Those 2 sucked because they downgraded the Legion grinds by separating them from the core of the game (raids and M+ for PvE) rather than evolving them in a way that wasn’t prohibitive for alts.

Dragonflight removing them and not adding anything in turn only benefits the high end key pushers and people who love endless repetition, while the other players have bounced.

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I agree that people do a bit of everything. But the system right now is broken. Even the loot system is broken.
Gear should be a tool, but also a way to show off.
Right now? Literally there is no difference from doing a +10 and doing a +16. But there is a skill gap there.

Now imagine putting this in open world. Obtaining same gear from “gather 3 flowers and kill 2 mobs” as you obtain from doing a +16. It’s far away from being fair to everybody.

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Nah - borrowed power as awful, especially in Legion.

Some classes didnt function at all until you reached Legion and got your artifact. Frost Mage, for example, had to eat every pull with 2 mobs due to damage being so low. WW Monks? Could pull 10-15 mobs, FoF, done.

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but now its impossible to do anything for your main, if you filled your vault/crafted your gear…there is legit nothing.

yep you could always do smth for your main char

Even the hyper casual youtber “Taliesin & Evitel” already see that you have no reason/motivatio/ambition to log in on your char atm, even there is content for these people, but its just not the spark to really start the game

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Ye but is also a silly one.

Healthiest means nothing if both are crap and one is “slightly less crap”.

And you think feeling forced to log on is a better alternative?

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At least the first 2 seasons were quite bad with the legendary RNG and the AP knowledge. It was also impossible to play a 2nd spec since you invested all the AP in your main spec weapon.
When it comes to AP, BFA was the best. Everyone had the same amount of knowledge. It was fine to be a month late into the party, or if you wanted to play an alt or off spec. And only the top 0,1% needed to grind AP. Everyone else just used the knowledge and was 1 week later on the same HoA level.

On the other hand, azerite gear, essenses, corruptions, … bfa was a big fail when you looked at borrowed powers. The neck was the only positive in comparison with the artifact of legion.

you are never forced to do anything in wow, if you dont do myth raiding or high m plus for the season title.

I would like to have somekind of grind to get a very little power gain and to respect my time in this, but now you just do m plus/raid and if you dont get anything, then it was a time waste on this point.
Open world is atm pointless to participate, because you get nothing besides of cosmetics.

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Which is very popular among casuals to farm.

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just look at the forum where ppl complain that there are no people for rares

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