Gatekeeping in RP – Where do we draw the line?

[Lorruss-argent-dawn (Lorruss)]

Much has been said already, and many good points have been made and will come I’m sure.

While it is alright not to agree with everyone on everything it is a good and important question to ask ‘’What kind of community do we want '’ and that’s a general question that can not be asked often enough.

For the guilds, for hubs/communities and ourselves.

Events:

There are so many out there now, and I could not be more happy about it.
Seeing as there is an abundance and probably something for everyone.

Don’t like pineapple, okay then go get the apples.
You wanted to join in on a BBQ event, but horde only?.. make a horde char or just make a BBQ alliance event yourself, it’s easy and fun!

I never asked for permission to do mine, and had quite the push back… it turns out people enjoy them quite a lot and it have become a better place because of it!

Don’t need 50+ people to show up; if 5 people show, alright then the event is for those 5 people to have a good time.

By the end of the day: It just does not make sense why I would need permission from a few selected people in a place of 500 + people… it’s simply not someone else’s decision to make.

No one owns a location in WoW, no one owns a day in the week, no one owns a theme or concept…

I’m not saying ‘do not be considerate’, it is very important but at some point… there are too many chefs in the kitchen. And if you want anything done, you just got to get on with it.

If it’s thought through, do your homework, put in the work… the right people will come along by the end of the day . No need to be upset because someone else is doing a similar thing; be productive with your time and energy.

And be the change you want to see!

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

@Lorruss-argent-dawn

This is amusing, because when I made my belf all those years ago I learned they reached adulthood at age 100… but if I saw you having 50 in your age… honestly… I would not go out of my way to whisper you, it’s like… why does this matter to me? I care more about a decent interaction than some flimsy number.

Yeah, it was old WoW RPG thing where they had age of adulthood for elves at 110 years old and it really poisoned the well so to speak. For some people, the notion of elves reaching adulthood at the same speed as humans is one of those “this doesn´t feel right” cases, which leads them to either grasping at straws by claiming that, even though it isn´t canon, it could be canonized (as some other bits from RPG have been over the years), or going into long arguments about how it just makes sense for elves to have the concept of cultural adulthood where you may be biologically and mentally adult, but the society (that is either at under 9% or 1% of their population) still sees you as a child for almost 100 years and you can´t do anything besides… something (I´ve noticed they never mention what your character actually should be doing in this century, they simply take issue with what your character is doing).

[Lintian-argent-dawn (Lintian)]

@Syelia-argent-dawn

Yeah, it was old WoW RPG thing where they had age of adulthood for elves at 110 years old

Which came from D&D, like a lot of RPG lore.

[Lorruss-argent-dawn (Lorruss)]

It’s just one of those things, I belive… people want to be upset about for the sake of being upset. Usually I don’t respond to neat pickiness like that, and if I do… I have a blizzard loading screen tip for you

''Your age is wrong, they reach adulthood at age 75!"
Answer: You can use the Tab key to select nearby enemies in front of you.

‘‘You can’t have blue eyes!’’
Answer: * Your character can eat and drink at the same time.

Yes, I agree, lets trade education for education.

But, we are getting de-railed!

[Speedwagone-argent-dawn]

@Elfculler-argent-dawn

It’s a crutch term used by people that feel excluded yet do very little to conform with the idea that they aren’t welcome everywhere or demand that they are catered to on account of existing on a role-playing realm. Yet this misuse was common and widespread enough that it’s now a dreaded concept and it has been replaced by mediocrity.

I don’t know, reading such a massive diatribe just comes up to me as “I want to prevent other people from having fun in a way I don’t like”, and buddy, unless you’re running a guild and curating members, turning yourself into a taste-maker… That’s simply not happening.

People don’t like gatekeeping because who the hell should be allowed to man the gate? There’s no consensus on every single issue and everybody’s gonna disagree somewhere the second a roleplaying group expands beyond, literally, 4 people at most.

There’s a lot of hollering about standards and about making sure “bad RP” doesn’t get the time of day. Outside of turning RP into an unwelcoming, toxic space full of snobbery, what solutions do you actually have?

[Elfculler-argent-dawn]

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

I don’t know, reading such a massive diatribe just comes up to me as “I want to prevent other people from having fun in a way I don’t like”, and buddy, unless you’re running a guild and curating members, turning yourself into a taste-maker… That’s simply not happening.

People don’t like gatekeeping because who the hell should be allowed to man the gate? There’s no consensus on every single issue and everybody’s gonna disagree somewhere the second a roleplaying group expands beyond, literally, 4 people at most.

There’s a lot of hollering about standards and about making sure “bad RP” doesn’t get the time of day. Outside of turning RP into an unwelcoming, toxic space full of snobbery, what solutions do you actually have?

Then you read it wrong. What I described were absolutely basic concepts of guild leaders and event organizers catering to their own members/attendants (with a modicum of organization to keep their idea or plans intact) instead of the masses that cry foul and feel marginalized when their character/group/concept/idea is not being catered to everywhere they show up.

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

People don’t like gatekeeping because who the hell should be allowed to man the gate?

…The ones making their own guild and organizing events. They are absolutely allowed to gatekeep because they should not be at the mercy of every Duskwood Roleplayer who wants in on the fun and make absolutely zero effort to fit in or consider their characters shouldn’t show up.

Yeah I welcome these kind of standards and to me they will always trump the notion of labeling anyone keeping to them them as elitist, toxic and snobbish, the buzz words of fencesitters and the people I described above.

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

what solutions do you actually have?

To what? I described how “Gatekeeping” is misused by people that see a personal attack in every scenario where they are left out or declined and then try and besmirch of the reputation of the person that didn’t comply to their demands. I can suggest them not doing that as a solution.

[Speedwagone-argent-dawn]

@Elfculler-argent-dawn

To what? I described how “Gatekeeping” is misused by people that see a personal attack in every scenario where they are left out or declined and then try and besmirch of the reputation of the person that didn’t comply to their demands. I can suggest them not doing that as a solution.

Okay but people are gonna be whiney babies because they don’t like being told no, no matter what? Who’s going to actually take a reputational hit because they denied someone else entry to their guild? The other people who get upset about that are likely also of a sort you would not want inside of your guild.

@Elfculler-argent-dawn

The ones making their own guild and organizing events. They are absolutely allowed to gatekeep

Which is exactly what I said.

[Janafi-argent-dawn]

@Melachaei-argent-dawn

I should have been more specific on that matter, it’s the public events that I was meant to outline here.

Fair. Then control is a fantasy. You can socially shun a concept you don’t like but you’re then beholden to hoping everybody else does the same, if they don’t… well Batman and Magic Mike are now a part of things. Not a lot to be done.

[Elfculler-argent-dawn]

@Speedwagone-argent-dawn

Which is exactly what I said.

Then we agree on what I posted. Glad we reached that consensus.

[Syelia-argent-dawn]

Elfculler however has it right at least when it comes to guild concepts (can´t speak about public events as that´s not something I organized), the amount of people who will want to argue with you about you not accepting their concept into your guild is pretty insane.

I had a guild two years ago for a short time (before I realized I was not enjoying myself at all) and something simple such as “Stormwind military unit with focus on old Alliance races of humans, dwarves, high elves and gnomes” drew outright ire from people. I had a DK argue with me how he should be allowed into my guild because his character is a hero. Or a gnome who stopped talking to me because I was unwilling to OK full gnomish heritage armor as the uniform (all I requested was that the cloak is simple blue one instead of heritage one). Or multiple people who whispered me why I don´t accept night elves, Dark Irons, void elves or worgen who always stay in worgen form.

And this is something I heard from other GMs, even those that run pretty open guilds in terms of the variety of concepts that can get in. There is a pretty big segment of AD RPers who will react very negatively to guilds having a specific theme that may exclude some players/concepts and boy will they let you know that you are the problem when you don´t wish to accept their worgen death knight into your Stormwind military guild.

[Obahar-argent-dawn]

@Janafi-argent-dawn

Magic Mike

New human wizard OC just dropped.

[Speedwagone-argent-dawn]

@Syelia-argent-dawn

Elfculler however has it right at least when it comes to guild concepts (can´t speak about public events as that´s not something I organized), the amount of people who will want to argue with you about you not accepting their concept into your guild is pretty insane.

Personally I haven’t encountered much of that. Given, I’ve been able to explain the concept pretty well and people so far have been respectful in whispers.
Though the entire guild did have a little chuckle at me having to very gentle-parent explain that no, we would not be recruiting literally Ratchet from Ratchet and Clank.

@Syelia-argent-dawn

I had a guild two years ago for a short time (before I realized I was not enjoying myself at all) and something simple such as “Stormwind military unit with focus on old Alliance races of humans, dwarves, high elves and gnomes” drew outright ire from people.

I remember this! I remember thinking “That’s a bit of a funny line to draw in this day and age”, but I think people who would get outright upset about it are ridiculous. Being part of a group means conforming to the rules the group has laid out, there is a social “cost” of effort in any group, and it varies from the sloppiest RP to the highest of “fine art” RP that everyone on the forums pretends their specific brand is.
Groups should get to pick who get to join them and stay in them, at a minimum. My issue will always and only be when people then apply those standards outside of their own closed-off groups, and I wanna make clear that I’m dedicated to staying consistent on this.

@Syelia-argent-dawn

And this is something I heard from other GMs, even those that run pretty open guilds in terms of the variety of concepts that can get in. There is a pretty big segment of AD RPers who will react very negatively to guilds having a specific theme that may exclude some players/concepts and boy will they let you know that you are the problem when you don´t wish to accept their worgen death knight into your Stormwind military guild.

In my time moderating guilds it’s just clear to me that there are two things AD’ers hate. It’s accountability when their actions affect other people, and it’s being told no when their ideas just don’t fit. And honestly, I’ve come to the realization it’s because a lot of groups/guilds/discords/communities just cater to whoever can throw the biggest hissy fit (You clearly don’t, there are people who know how to set their foot down.)
People throw these tantrums because they work. Because they actually end up making people cower and just allow it for sake of “not causing drama” (instead of kicking the actual tumor trying to infest their space).

[Kaytlinne-argent-dawn (Kaytlinne)]

@Syelia-argent-dawn

@Lorruss-argent-dawn

This is amusing, because when I made my belf all those years ago I learned they reached adulthood at age 100… but if I saw you having 50 in your age… honestly… I would not go out of my way to whisper you, it’s like… why does this matter to me? I care more about a decent interaction than some flimsy number.

Yeah, it was old WoW RPG thing where they had age of adulthood for elves at 110 years old and it really poisoned the well so to speak. For some people, the notion of elves reaching adulthood at the same speed as humans is one of those “this doesn´t feel right” cases, which leads them to either grasping at straws by claiming that, even though it isn´t canon, it could be canonized (as some other bits from RPG have been over the years), or going into long arguments about how it just makes sense for elves to have the concept of cultural adulthood where you may be biologically and mentally adult, but the society (that is either at under 9% or 1% of their population) still sees you as a child for almost 100 years and you can´t do anything besides… something (I´ve noticed they never mention what your character actually should be doing in this century, they simply take issue with what your character is doing).

My Belf, who is probably post timeskip now just approaching her 50s, would simply nod, say “I see” in the most deadpan voice possible (she’s good at that, it’s not her fault), and then send them to the Shadow Realm.

Do not annoy the Disc Priest, she has dealt with more impressive nonsense than yours, Random RP ‘Actually’ Person

[Rotwild-argent-dawn]

@Syelia-argent-dawn

And this is something I heard from other GMs, even those that run pretty open guilds in terms of the variety of concepts that can get in. There is a pretty big segment of AD RPers who will react very negatively to guilds having a specific theme that may exclude some players/concepts and boy will they let you know that you are the problem when you don´t wish to accept their worgen death knight into your Stormwind military guild.

As a GM, I think it is important to remember that no one is entitled to even a second of your time. You’re not running a business or a government agency, and you are well within your right to nope out of a conversation if they aren’t affording you the respect you are affording them.

[Loras-argent-dawn]

We can all curate our personal spaces however we like (within reason), yeah. I say curate because I make the distinction between stuff like that and gatekeeping – the latter of which I’m inclined to define as the unfair exclusion of others. It’s not unfair to refuse someone from your guild/group if you don’t feel they’re a good fit.

Trying to tell somebody that they can’t/shouldn’t roleplay in [x hub] because you don’t like their roleplay is what I’d categorise as gatekeeping, because you don’t own that public space.

[Chaermi-argent-dawn]

@Melachaei-argent-dawn

• Restricts event hosting – “You can’t run this kind of event because someone else already does.”
• Controls character concepts – “Your character wouldn’t be able to do that because I say so.”
• Blocks participation – “Only members of our guild/group are allowed to be involved in this RP.”
• Expects OOC approval for RP – “You need to prove yourself before we’ll RP with you.”

My thoughts on it:

Event Hosting: Everyone can host events like they want, of course. I’d just recommend to take a look if a similar event already exists. Variety is fine, having all stuff redundant gets a bit boring. So sometimes it might be more fun to team up for similar ideas instead of i.e. having the 295749. brawl/market/insertwhateverhere in xyz.

Controls character concepts: I wouldn’t give anything about someone trying to tell me I can’t run a concept, nor do I care about other people’s concepts. We can of course all feel free to interact or not to interact, just how I handle it when dealing with concepts that don’t match my idea of the game and lore.

Blocks participation: No host or GM is obliged to accept every participant and I think that is to be respected. I can’t expect anyone to cater to everybody’s wish to participate in a certain RP. Someone runs a guild campaign/event or a campaign/event for friends? It is up to them to decide, who they want to have in and who not. The same goes for smaller plots or even day to day RP.

Expects OOC approval for RP: People can feel free to ask from others whatever they want. It is up to us to give into that or to say that we won’t interact. Simple as it is.
There are things where I think OOC approval is needed though: RP that includes harmful or deadly outcomes, many aspects of crime RP.

EDIT: I’d like to agree with Loras, telling people they can’t be in a certain hub is gatekeeping.

[Tenasa-argent-dawn]

My guild partakes in gatekeeping.

We only allow in types that would make sense to join the Ebon Blade. Death knights and Necromancers.
We do allow concepts to work if people can present a valid concept. For example:

• Joining on a hunter, with the intention that you are raising undead animals.
• Joining on a rogue and becoming a geist (We accept minions), using the rogue transmog to achieve this
• Joining as a Dark Ranger and being on the same status as a ghoul (We don’t hold them in high regards)
• Joining as a mage, priest or warlock and being a necromancer.

The concept is what matters here, and we have turned away many who’s concepts don’t work with us. Some with more grace than others.

[Distantpeak-argent-dawn (Distantpeak)]

@Tenasa-argent-dawn

My guild partakes in gatekeeping.

I wouldn’t call that gate keeping though?
It’s more refining your guild to what makes sense for it.

[Velarys-argent-dawn]

I must agree with what was said earlier - the whole topic is rather complex. In regards to some of the points raised regarding lore accuracy, it is indeed best to follow the lore and its worldbuilding as that makes the shared experience of the server better. Sadly AD has suffered in instances from custom lore which goes far beyond headcanons and encompasses entire communities, not just pockets of RPers, or guilds. But so long as these things are not forced, I don’t think following the lore should be a hard rule. Whether we like it or not, not everyone will agree with people’s lore interpretations, lore knowledge, visions, or desires and nothing should be forced on anyone. It is within people’s right to accept or deny RP based on what they want so long as they are civil and gentle about it. In that sense, I wouldn’t consider following the lore gatekeeping.

However the examples mentioned above, such as similar concepts, do indeed have the tendency of falling victim to gatekeeping - that excluding the instances of downright copying or impersonation (and by that I refer to something more than similar concepts, or vaguely similar looks in the case of a character, such as same names, art theft, etc). But even for these things there’s only so much to be done. We all pay the same subscription, we should all enjoy the game fairly in the end of the day.

@Tenasa-argent-dawn

The concept is what matters here, and we have turned away many who’s concepts don’t work with us. Some with more grace than others.

Lastly, I want to add - I don’t think that is gatekeeping so long as you don’t exclude such RPers from your overall RP. Guilds are based on certain concepts and each concept is not going to fit everyone and everything. If when not recruiting in your guild you don’t discriminate with whom you RP, then you’re not gatekeeping.

Though, I must ask. As I’m very much contained within the few guilds that I am part of and haven’t interacted with the world at large much outside of a few server events. Threads about RP etiquette and limits pop up very frequently, is it really that rough out there?

[Faelenn-argent-dawn]

@Rotwild-argent-dawn

As a GM, I think it is important to remember that no one is entitled to even a second of your time. You’re not running a business or a government agency, and you are well within your right to nope out of a conversation if they aren’t affording you the respect you are affording them.

I fully agree with you and, in addition, I would add that this principle applies to people who organize public events just the same. It takes considerable time and effort, which often comes on top of their everyday lives (work and/or family). It is their full right to simply not engage with anyone they feel is wasting their time unnecessarily or does not fit the theme they are looking for in their project, that is the right that is given to anyone who spends time and effort making content for other people to enjoy.