not everyone in mmorpgs are social inept… the game just doesn’t make it worth the effort.
i come from everquest… back in the day , i know how the social aspects of mmorpgs used to make them back then.
imo wow has destroyed that aspect .
I never said they were? I was pointing out people whom find interaction hard are going to have a hard time in a game that ultimately has a social premise?
And disagree. It’s a “it is what you make it” situation. For the benefits of being social in the game and finding friends is I get to have a blast when playing and I get access to better gear and more reliable groups more easily. The play experience is better.
Objectively, it doesn’t offer me anything technically a PUG person can’t get, but you get out what you put in. It offers me a better experience, so I do it, because games are supposed to be fun, right?
It’s a good balance. The game “opens up” way more if you’re social, it’s more easily accessed. I disagree that games should coerce that play on people by making the experience crap if you’re not being social and this is what Everquest was guilty of. Pretty much every expo post Legacy of Yekisah (sp?) was absolutely pointless if you didn’t have regulars to play with. You couldn’t even solo basic mobs in the first zone of Planes of Discord (unless you were a solo specialist class and willing to spend 10 minutes killing a single mob, then resting for another 5) - not exactly a stellar experience.
What WoW does is it makes solo play possible. But group play is better, that’s not up for debate. All the posts that moan about RIO and gating and toxic groups. This is all stuff you avoid completely if you group with friends. The only stuff WoW keeps “out of reach” of players whom don’t group with regular players/friends is raiding above LFR and higher M+ keys, but the “experience” you can have, you just get the watered down version of it. That’s fair enough.
I loved EQ, but it’s approach towards content was abysmal in that respect. Releasing a new expo 95% you won’t be able to even set foot into unless you live within a group might have worked back when the MMO genre was new and players no lifed, but it won’t fly anymore.
well to counter it… i am a pretty social person in games always have been … however when i play wow…
i hardly speak i play by myself, i dont feel no reason to make effort to group with guildmates…
something about modern wow is not connecting on the social front.
back in 2005 - say 2008 maybe… when wow was relatively fresh, people were much more social and actively playing to socialise… now it feels more like everyone is playing for their own personal set goals… if yours do not match those goals then you simply wont play with them. and there is nothing which will change that.
EDIT: i believed the friends thing coming into shadowlands i found myself a decent guild which had a core group of people who reminded me of the good ol wow days socially…
but it ended up with a bunch of them leaving to progress for their own personal goals because the progress was more important than the social interactions…
and that is the problem with wow now.
EDIT #2:i kind of preferred that old style of progression where you had to socialise to progress.
it made the game feel more inclusive and created lasting relationships and great memories in the long run.
you are right it probably would not work with the current generation of players…
but that is souly down to game like world of warcraft and how they destroyed that aspect of gaming.
I feel like there are too many chores to do, even for just playing 1 character. That creates daily and weekly checklists which gives less time for having fun with other people in the adventures the game provides.
yeah shadowland is a very anti-social expansion… everyone is on a set path to follow if yours doesn’t line up with another persons there is no point teaming with them…
as all that matters in shadowlands is progression and keeping that train moving forward…
progression used to be a aspect of mmorpgs which was optional…
now it is all world of warcraft is… and that is a problem in itself.
How is that ‘new’ in Shadowlands? Different types of players have been running in hamster wheels specifically designed for them since WOLTK.
oh i agree, but never has progression been so prevalent than it is right now in shadowlands.
the entire expansion is catered towards it.
you can argue it was the same in wotlk which i would not argue against… but there was systems in place in Wotlk which helped alleviate some of the problems the more casual players had in order to progress at their own pace.
shadowlands however feels more like if you miss the content when the curve is relevant then you will struggle massively in order to keep up with the player base.
not to mention the curve is the only thing shadowlands has going for it. and even that is not as appealing as it once was.
i levelled with no hurry all my chars (dps) via korthia. and world boss. and korthia. and maw event. and korthia
I disagree that the “anti social creep” is down fundementally to WoW’s design, it’s a symptom of the playerbase shift, not WoW’s design itself. Fact remains the MMO playerbase has shrunk and that of it which is left is no longer comprised almost entirely of individuals whom are willing to sink hours every day into the genre.
I also disagree Shadowlands is one of the worst for things like “helping the one elft behind catch up” - this is nonsense. To catch up to the highest ilevel of the patch, of course, but you have to be careful about providing easy catch up to that point else you invalidate the progression curve itself.
However, getting to 220ish ilevel is easy enough, and let us not forget this is the ilevel of regular raiding (to enable you to start doing heroic). There is certainly a “list” of stuff to do when starting a char at 60, but it actually doesn’t take that long to complete, perhaps a couple of days at most, before you’re at the “do whatever daily chore I feel like, else gear, plus torg weekly” point.
When I compare this to stuff like the ongoing AP grind of legion, or the same in BFA plus essences plus az armours plus the importance of reps etc, then i’m sorry, I dont understand how you can SL is “bad for those left behind”, the game very quickly helps you get to the point where you can begin running M+ and thus “doing” the content (or raiding) - I don’t really believe it should offer more than this, because that is the “gearing journey itself”.
9.1.5 reduces a lot of the additional gumph with this process, principally the skip on the covenant campaigns (which is the biggest timesink for a new char).
With the new broker item and the skip, a char is going to ding 60, jump to renown 40, have all the binds, and then all they’ll need to do is torg twice a week and korthia IF they want (if a main has done it, no need) - how exactly is this a “barrier to catch up”? It puts them at the starting line very fast. The rest is on them.
I disagree that “catch up” should invalidate the gearing process itself and I always have. Catch-up should allow you to quickly reach the entry point of the “content trinity” perhaps a bit above, it should not invalidate a portion of that journey else it creates problems with allowing people to skill up organically (because they never needed to do normal raiding or keys below 10 for example).
That’s just my opinion however. But I don’t think WoW SL is really that bad for getting a char “into the gearing part” - which is fundementally the gameplay. Earning gear through. If people want to skip that part, then I will disagree with them.
Disagree. There are not a lot of chores. There are a lot of “one time chores” like renown grind and campaign, but they end. Beyond that, Torghast on a weekly basis and then Korthia IF you feel like doing it, but even Korthia ends and tbh doesn’t have to take up lots each day (it’s very much up to you how much you put in).
On reset day it takes me about 1-2 hours tops to get ALL my weekly stuff done and then the rest of my week is simply doing korthia if I feel like, the assault when it repops and then spamming dungeons. That is not a chore list to me!
I would look to BFA for chroe list, every login session say hello to about 30-45 minutes of stupid rep grinding and visions currency collection every single freaking session and it didn’t end unless you were at the very very top of the game because there’s always a chance that horrific vision 5 mask drops a 470 item with a super good corruption that is BIS for you with a socket.
i honestly don’t know how people can say SL is chore heavy…? It’s initial investment heavy but once that’s done, it is done! and 9.1.5 is going to eliminate pretty much 80% of it! Even so as said above, it’s about 1-2 days of concerted effort from “ding 60”.
It definitely feel different for me. And the weekly Torghast alone is already 2 hours.
Yeah i agree it is not all wow’s fault but i was merely pointing out wow’s major role in the shift.
My point was more that people are more reluctant to help out now because of their own progressions. they are more likely now to focus on their own progression than put time aside to help out a stranger.
I don’t deny getting the ilvl may be easy, but the chores and progression creep which follows is boring and is the only aspect of the game in place to keep people playing.
Everything you mentioned in relation to legion and bfa is still in shadowlands just cleverly masked with different names and a fresh can of paint.
9.1.5 is needed i agree but i would say had there not been bad press right now related to blizzard i doubt this patch would of happened. it will improve minor things…but the core game will still be identical and people will soon realise nothing is different and the expansion is still the same as it always was.
The issue i have is the “gearing part” is badly outdated and badly needs to be redesigned to keep it fresh and interesting and inclusive to ALL players not just the ones who enjoy the chores and grinds.
really not trying to offend you - but with the level of m+ you are doing how the f… your party takes 2 hours to clear thorgast ?
literaly how ?
it should take you maximum 7-9 minutes per floor with mobs to clear. and then on flawless you just ignore mobs and run to next floor for boss
I dont know. I have no other reference. It is ~1 hour per wing. We are probably doing it wrong.
Korthia is 45-60 minutes a day. And i ditched the maw events.
Mileage varies. Takes my rogue about 45 minutes to do both wings.
This guy (215 ilevel at the time) took me about 2 hours to clear both Layer 12s, which isn’t too bad considering layer 12 is intended for 252 ilevel apparently. First run took me about 40 minutes the second took me longer as I had a phone call halfway through haha.
Ok, then we are missing how to do it the right way.
It is very reliant on power and research. I’m not claiming to be a god at torghast but it seems to be something I’m pretty good at, I only wish I could perform as well in m+ haha. It just takes practice and knowing how to earn the score the right way. For example my rogues best 12 run this was 272 points but this guy only got a lousy 84 and a 114. Just gotta try new things and builds until you find the comfort zone you know?
Even at 2 hours a week, that’s still a lot less chore than BFA. Maybe if I did Korthia I’d clock up more but I do the bare minimum there.
I am by the way not disagreeing there were chores in BFA too. All i am saying is the daily checklists are not really helping for doing group content when your gametime starts at ~20.00 in the evening. And torghast is one of those things that is the whole evening activity, and then the day is over. At least with the amount of time it takes for us.
why spend 7 hours for farming renown, when you can start by just getting a m+ key and lvl it up. u get renown from m+ and gear as well. always when i play, i take the path that gives most value. renown + gear. u chose only renown… WHY???
for any fresh toon, i lvl up, i make certain i do all dungeons on +15± and do it the weeek after, gz now you got 246 gear by playing for 2 weeks… its good for a starter, but crap if u wanna be a hardcore pusher.
Ah I start at a similar time to you (8:30pm is the earliest I can start)
I basically chalk off Wednesday. It’s the day I get all chores done and I worry about nothing else. It works because my friends usually raid first opportunity wed eve whilst I don’t raid, so come Thursday everyone is ready for keys rest of week except they may do torg later into night when I’ve signed out.
I still think having the vast majority of my days on wow as for nothing bar content and the occasional Korthia daily plus one assault is really good honestly. I’d rather have one “chore day” and the rest doing what I like than chores every day (assuming there must be chore, ideally there’s be none at all but hey we can dream)
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dont know if you noticed it, but you have the LFG tool you can search for a group for a m+ key and plx don,t say its impossible to get into a group the problem is most players sign for a +10 if they are only ilvl 190 or something, rlly dont get me wrong even as a resto shaman i get declined alot.