Gilneas. So... that was stupid

…wasn’t it?

My favourite is how the Forsaken just… left Gilneas one day, apparently without coordinating with the Worgen, so we get Scarlet squatters.

What’s your favourite stupidity?


The design of the new armour


I like how Greymane became a senile old man. It was nice. I enjoyed seeing that.


Good point. For me, it’s already the fact that apparently enough Scarlets are still around to a) actually occupy at least the capital city and its surroundings, and that it takes b) a whole army of Alliance AND Forsaken to defeat them.

To me, the whole scenario just seems to be there to give the Forsaken a chance to redeem themselves for what they’ve done and to re-emphasize the new friendly relations between humans/Gilneas and Forsaken and also to further push the “the light is evil too” arc. The scenario certainly didn’t feel like a real battle for conquest.

That Genn ends up giving his kingdom to his daughter after all these years of talking about taking back his kingdom, I don’t know, seems weird to me. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t care that she’s a woman, I just liked Genn and his aggressive nature towards at least the undead. His daughter, on the other hand, seems to have the same open-minded and peaceful attitude that all the characters have now. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gilneas also welcomes the Forsaken/Horde into his land in the near future. But that’s another topic.


I’ll just quote myself from another thread relating to the subject:

The game is so desperate to remove any tension, distaste or consequences for the past actions of certain playable races and shows very little regard for fans of the setting as a whole, especially fans of non-playable organisations.

The Scarlet Crusade have long been framed as the typical zealots who go too far and who are misled by their leadership. Yet somehow they’re still able to secure recruits in large numbers…who are unceremoniously cut down even as excuse after excuse is pulled out to keep the likes of Sylvanas around.

I do not think that the game’s writing has ever been particularly deep or nuanced, outside of certain rare exceptions - but more of an effort being made would be appreciated.


Yeah, when I finished this questline I immediately saw parallels to the new star wars movies and how they treated Luke there. The same here. A girl comes which I scarcely recognize (I overexaggerate here but in comparison to him she is not such a famous character) , says that old Genn is a bigot and becomes a leader. After the victory SHE calls herself the queen and f***s off while Genn sits crying over a grave and says that he cannot change.

It’s not that I hate her character or her becoming the queen, I just don’t like how quickly they made it feel and how pathetic they made Genn. He was always fury incarnate doing everything to save his people and here he is a weak old man full o regrets and fears. I always felt his presence while he was in a cinematic cause he was a strong and fierce character. That’s how I should feel about her who is supposed to be the queen but instead she is a leader with no character, I have no idea what she’s gonna do and from what we see in the questline she just wants to be friends with everyone. If I wanted a story like that I could go and watch MLP.

But unfortunately I feel that way about most of our new “leaders” in Dragonflight.


Just finished the questline and its … bland ? Wierd ? Annoying ? I don’t know …

From once side …
It is logical that Lilian Voss is there since she became a character by killing scarlet crusaders . Also comrades from the Rogue class hall in Legion with Tess .
Other than Calia I did not see other undead , but maybe because I played as alliance ?

Also Yea the Undead the just up and left ? The worgen did not return , so yea what do you want ,of course we will get new people coming .

Regarding the scarlet crusaders numbers . Given we had the "There must always be a king " back in Wrath anyone wander what happened to the scourge in Northrend and the world overall after the crown got shattered ? The NPC’s in the Tyr questline seem to mention that it is not all that great and given that we know the Last Titan will be in Northrend , I wouldn’t be surprised there are more of them out there .Especially with Thyrion Fordring dead , leaving a bunch of paladins leaderless in that place .

On the other side …

I get that Genn has only one child and Might need to step down at some point as a king . But why now ? Ah look we have a lot of work to do . okay Tess you’r up … I’m gonna go on a vacation . What is this Joe Biden going to a beach holiday while Hawai burns ?

Also what ?
All hail our new Matriarchal world ? I mean What the hell ?!? There’s Lilian , Tess , Calia and Gen’s Wife , who I have no idea why she was there and where she came from . All she did was nag the whole time . And than there’s Genn who is a disturbed and broken old man who just wants to cry in the corner . It felt like everyone was there to move him to the retirement home for Senile people and say " Here grandpa , do you wonna watch the sun set from the window . Take your meds and than we can go ."

Can we please stop it with this matriarchal propaganda ??? Every male Character in Dragonflight was a pathetic whimp , bootlicker or mentally disturbed . Now the devs started to “retire” or mentally brake any that are left . Malfurion > went to sleep for lol reason . Baine > useless whimp . Wrathion and Sabelian > retards . Kalecgos > whimp and mentally unstable . Ebyssian > a pure grades bootlicker. Nozdormu > codependent and depressed . Anduin > Mentally unstable . Genn > retired and mentally unstable . I bet Alexstrasza’s boots are so clean from all that bootlicking she has trouble walking straight without slipping .

I fully expect they will kill off Vellen and Turalyon next expansion and Thrall will have his wife go after him telling him how to do it better and be a good person.

And than there was the cinematic at the end of the questline which cannot be described by anything other than MEGA CRINDGE . My face hurts from facepalming so much .

Also PS . Can someone please get rid of Anduin’s face on the WoW page . His scared little eyes and hobo unwashed visage , look like he is gonna ask me to give him spare change for crack . Its creepy and off-putting .


I was thinking the same after I started to re-watch all the cinematics since W3: however, as they said, without a leader, they are mindless and probably forgotten until they are needed in the story. My ideology is that when the BC returns, we’ll see them rise again to pave the way before their masters. I don’t do this Jailer is behind everything thing personally.

So yeah, it could be that people, out of fear of what happened during SL and knowing how LK kept all of them in line, they join the SC. Fear can be a great motivation, although I think Blizz just pumped them up like they do with everything after a major conflict without putting much logic in there :dracthyr_shrug:

Imagine Blizz bringint Yrel back as the mega-ultra-girlboss of the Light :dracthyr_nervous_animated: I really hope they won’t get rid of Turalyon as I just started to like him :dracthyr_heart:

The “forsaken” are not a race per se. They are reanimated corpses from every background.

People seem to forget that gilneans are in the ranks of the forsaken.
They died and undied for their land. They have all reasons to fight for Gilneas.

Then we have the lordaeron forsaken which pretty much got their legitimate monarch back. They also have all reason to help their neighbor Kingdom if their monarch + Council tells them to.

Dont forget that many forsaken had also all reason to hate gilneans in their first war. Many lordaeron citizen died because Genn closed of its country and let them die like animals, never lifting a finger. Genn was never a good king when he needed to be one.
Revenge and hatred of those casualty made by Genns decision, were easy instruments for Silvanas to manipulate.

There is a reason they call themself forsaken. The living have a lot to do with it.


It doesn’t matter what the Forsaken used to be whilst they were living, as in undeath they are abominations who exist against the natural order and who risk devolving into a feral, dangerous state. They are visibly decaying walking corpses who no reasonable person would want to be around. The most sympathetic solution for them would be to grant them a swift, clean and merciful true death.

Though they are a playable race, so obviously that will not happen. Nevertheless, the game has rapidly devolved to the point where it is so very desperate to ignore the established history and complexities of what the likes of the orcs and the Forsaken have inflicted upon everyone else, including their own allies.

Genn securing the border of Gilneas with a wall was the correct move, as Gilneas being present is highly unlikely to have turned the tide against Arthas. If anything, it would have simply provided even more corpses for the Lich King’s army.


No reason. Zero. Considering how many forsaken died to take that place from the guys they are giving it back to. Look, I don’t know what’s what these days. Everyone is everyone else’s buddy. What happened it the past is magically gone and everyone loves everyone else, but I don’t like it. As it is, right now. The Forsaken and the Worgen are still mortal enemies. This story made zero sense.

And the biggest stupid to me, since the OP asked is Lilly running around trying to be everyone’s smelly, ugly buddy. It was annoying enough when she did it with Shandris but now she’s moved on to Tess. They really need to cut this crap.


On account of whom is that unnatural? We have literally a loan who can create them. A loa being a NATURE spirit. We have undead that are not created by necromancy, but come back from alone cause of an oath or a business. As far as lore goes there is no objective claim that they are unnatural. Ghost and specters being there forever without necromancy. The scourge are the one that becomes feral. The special thing about Forsaken IS that they are not feral and not bound to the lich kings domination magic.

Your boss telling you to do stuff is zero reason?

Cause you said so? The lore advanced. We are not stuck on a specific day or month or year. Stuff happened. By your metrics humans and nightelves should be killing each other. After all they were fighting and killing each other in WC3. Same with Tauren and Nelf… Despite both being pro nature, and living in peace in before WC3… while we are at it let’s all together kill the elves… Their queen called the legion way back then… Many people of every race died cause of that. We are stuck in time apparently so let’s exterminate them. Was their queen after all.

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That’s your head cannon working there . The forsaken have repeatedly been villainized and debased to simple monsters . The current Forsaken is "lack of happiness, gothic , disregards all life , selfish and wanting to make everyone like Forsaken " .
Is it a good writing ? No . But that is what it is . It was so trash seeing the farmers in plague lands that were just raised in Forsaken turn and start killing their friends “because we are undead now” . Or the elves that got their City burned and friends killed thought , oh yeaaaa lets KILL MORE ELVES .

I never understood story wise , why Forsaken was not a choice rather than being forced into it . Logically speaking there would be tons of mortals who would chose to live on rather than die , to complete some unfished business .
Why those that were force raised did not turn on the person that raised them ?
Why they did not rebel against the orders of killing their families and friends ?

There was some good “Undead”, but honestly they are exception and not norm . Even more , most of them are not “Forsaken” but rather once that split off from them because they did not want to Genocide anyone . :
Example : Zelling > killed by the Forsaken

Leonid >> Argen Dawn


No headcannon. Start the game. Walk to forsaken, lets say Ross, and see if that is still true. Its not. Its in the game what I said, so its lore. Its in the books, so its lore.
Lore changes over years (and many redcons). But todays lore is what I stated.

We now know that the Valkyr raising them used the Jailors magic… Domination… right there in the name.
Its new lore, but its lore. You can find it whatever but there is no denying that it is now how it is. You are not the author.

Domination magic
Some undead were strong enough to not be dominated. But they are few in comparance and thats why they are NAMED NPC

Ahaaa , so Domination Magic is that supper excuse that erases it all . Like “Hitler did it all and we did nothing bad. Sorry We were controlled” .

If Domination magic was the cause how come there are those that didn’t commit genocide ?
How come the forsaken player did not straight get MC’ed the moment they set foot in the Maw .
I call BS .

The Forsaken as organization has never been about anything but selfish gains since day 1 . Plague the land and Kill all that resist . THE END . Forsaken by the world yea ? They forsook the world and started twisting it to suit their needs and than were like . But why those humans don’t want to die . WHY WHY WHY? They are evil !

Trying to turn them into the victims now is a straight insult to Forsaken lore . There is nothing wrong with having some races in game who have morally dubious foundations .

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I liked them dodgy, I like to remember how the living is creeped out when they see one, or how disgusted to know what their loved ones became. Same goes for Night Elves, the savage treehuggers who would hunt down anyone harming their nature. Or Dragons, who wouldn’t talk to just anyone they find, but their trust should be earned (I guess we are champyuns so gods of some sort and this could be crossed out).

But those are tales of old, now we are in the new era of the game.

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That’s what they used as device… Yes. Againy, no matter how dumb. It’s lore now.

Was he a freaking death demigod from the shadowlands with magic powers? No? Wth are you even bringing it up in a fantasy lore forum?

When was Domination Magic introduced again? How was the lore in that addon? There you go.

Read the novels. First most went back to their families in hope of reuniting. Got killed or chased of cause monster. Then a human supremacist tried to chase them off their lands. Sylvanas took over, took the land back with supremacist help against the agents of the legion/scourge, killed Garithos off after it was clear they never would have been respected as the ones that once lived, and called themselves Forsaken. The end. You never played undead, did you? Was even in the old vanilla intro. Now go to a lexicon and search Forsaken… There is a reason they call themselves that.

You really didn’t read the lore, or played WC3… Who do you think the Forsaken original were?

Did they, though? Do you have a source on the Domination magic working on the Forsaken specifically? I don’t remember that.

What I remember is Before the Storm, where they went with the equally stupid, but different explanation, of Sylvanas’ authoritarian regime that systemetically tried to supress the humanity of the Forsaken by manipulating culture and getting rid of and undermining dissenters. I didn’t get “Oh, the poor Forsaken were dominated”, I got “oh, the bad stuff? That was all Sylvanas’ manipulation, and now that the Forsaken are free from her, they can be nice, like they always wanted to be!”.

In Silver pine it is made clear that the reanimated blind follow their killer after being awakened. Much like the lich king. Which Garrosh noted. This is after the lich kings death.
In Shadowlands and in the book it’s made clear that the Valkyrs were always in league with the Jailor. It was their “oh but he is a mastermind that planned this since Sylvanas threw herself off ICC”. The Helm of Domination is apparently his helmet and frostmourne has his Domination runes. Arthas uses those to raise and control the Undead. Uther later gives more info’s with the soulsplit device to tell us “oh sylvanas was always a puppet duh”
In afterlife it’s explicit stated that the agent (Arthas) is using the Domination stuff from the Maw. In the maw your ears bleed from the word Domination…

Stupid things but they are lore… If sylvanas heard a whisper here and there before Shadowlands, it would have been more plausible that there was a mastermind. And not just here he is Mr mastermind playing 4d chess since Nerzhuls fall…

In early wow lore it was stated that becoming undead changes your moral, but it was since then somehow forgotten or scrapped. Like the light burning them when being healed, or them twisting shadow magic to react like the light… Since lich king never heard from it again.

Not really. We had a Round of Ask CDev where that was asked, and this was war they said:

Why do some Alliance soldiers raised by the Forsaken immediately become loyal to the Forsaken while others do not? Are they being mind controlled? If so, by whom - Sylvanas or the Val’kyr? How does this relate to the fact that the Forsaken cultural identity is based on their free will and rebellion against the Lich King?

Free will is one of the cornerstones of Forsaken culture, with the great capacity for both good and evil that it entails. However, some undead, especially those who die in combat or under extreme stress and are raised soon after, enter into a violent, frenzied state. Undead in this state are easily manipulated and their rage is often directed at the foes of those who raised them. After the effects wear off, if the risen corpse has not been destroyed, they are given the same ultimatum that other Forsaken are offered: join the Dark Lady or return to the grave.

That doesn’t necessarily mean that they are dominating anyone. I’d need a more specific source on that, or I’d call it headcanon for now.

…yes, the Scourge worked with domination magic. And the Forsaken are supposed to have broken free from that.

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