[H-RP] Orcs of the Red Blade – Twenty Years Later

Well, this certainly got a bit bigger than I intended for it to ever be. The last thing I wanted for this thread was for it to accommodate a flame war in a place that is supposed to represent the good side of the guild. I suppose the onus could in part be on me for facilitating that, since I consciously chose to make a public statement of my departure here in this thread, but I didn’t expect it to spark as heated of a discussion as it did. My original post was supposed to be just that, for that matter: to announce my departure and to at least let people know that the guild would move on in a different form, albeit a form I do not agree with.

It seems a lot of buried grievances have come to the surface as a result of bringing up the current culture of the guild. Whether every single one of them are right or wrong, I’m honestly not the best person to judge, seeing as a lot of different topics have been brought to light here that I’m not always involved in. So let me reiterate that all I mean to touch upon are my own experiences and views with the guild in its current form. In that regard, nowhere in my original post did I aim to insinuate that I was forcibly removed from the guild or that the GM position was taken from me unconditionally. I’m sure there was a time where I’d like to think that, had I asked to be given it back after having lost it due to an automated in-game mechanic, I’d have received it. However, by the time everything went down, simply receiving the GM title after such a demand wouldn’t have made much of a difference anymore in my eyes. To me, the overall culture and atmosphere in the guild had already been tarnished due to some implemented changes that resulted in the guild being split apart, my long-time friends having practically been ostracized and finding myself to be the target of insinuations that - to me - came out of left field as well. So let me be clear that I don’t wish to point fingers at anyone for directly stealing anything from me. Rather, my issue lies with a deeper, more complicated process.

The guild as it is now is building on the foundations, lore, characters, assets and history made by people some of whom have actively been mentioned to be despised or ostracised from their community. Members who helped make the guild into the long standing community that it is and helped give it the reputation that it has today. Having spoken to some of the people involved since, I can understand full well why they would find it difficult to return to such a community (had they even the chance) to begin with, as the same goes for me as well. It would be a tall order for me to be taken back in at this point and to feel comfortable in it, given how I know there are apparently people in there who look down upon me for being associated with what’s for some reason coined as a separate “old guard”-clique. A “clique”, if one could even call it that as it consisted of many different members who weren’t initially intrinsically tied to one another save for their love of the ORB-project, that in its own term seems to have been ousted by another “clique”.

Again, I can only speak from my own experiences, but having spoken to some of the people involved I’ve learned of things that transpired when I was still active and was not even aware of. For one thing, I know for a fact that if there is one person who would not consciously cause any drama in his WoW time, it is Karak. I’ve known him for as long as I’ve been in this guild and never have I known him to be the instigator of any OOC drama (IC is an entirely different matter, but that’s why we love him). To see even him come out of this feeling hurt tells me something went wrong at the end of the road. And perhaps some of the things that went wrong, like certain things mentioned by others in the thread above, may have been a matter of misinformation or miscommunication (for example how, in the end, it was my own choice to leave the guild, although it was the surrounding circumstances that led me to do so). But even so, the damage has been done by now, which I do deeply regret.

There’s no easy solution to this situation and there are only going to be losers coming out of this either way given the public character this whole discussion has taken, but the intent of my original post remains the same: While I myself bear no personal bad feelings towards Rykana or Verzan and do commend them for hosting all the events that they have and maintaining the guild, I cannot see myself returning to the guild in what it’s been shaped to be.

The question to me remains, simply, why some of the people presently in the guild are comfortable building on something made by people they have actively expressed to dislike or despise, even expressed relief at their departure from the community. I’ll be the first willing to admit that a guild is a living entity that constantly changes hands and members. As I said in my initial post, people always come and go. I didn’t start out as the GM of this guild either. But the core and soul of a community should remain the same. I can’t be so crass as to accuse anyone of wearing a dead carcass of the guild on their back, but… well, alright, it was certainly a very visual metaphor. I do think that’s what seems to be hurting a lot of people here. That the community they still wish to be a part of and historically have their names and identities interlinked with, has had its souls swapped out or at least changed colours.

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I think you guys should think of an IC way to explain a split. We’ve had examples before of it happening in the Horde, Thrall vs Garrosh, Saurfang vs Sylvanas.
The Thrall vs Garrosh split could be quite a good example, as spiritual vs warlike attitudes.

It would be interesting and something you could reference IC (even if you don’t actually RP it out).

You have the perfect setting to organise something like this too, as by all accounts DF will have a ‘time skip’ IC, so you could also say this happened during the skip.

I realise IRL things are beyond repair, but with a little creativity I think you could repair the IC feeling and leave both factions with a story that will enrich their characters.

It’s really sad to hear of people who aren’t sure what to do with there characters IC anymore, and thinking of retiring them completely. This might be a good way to explain away the changes.

Hopefully you get the guild tag back, Orcs of the Red Blade, but if for some reason you don’t, perhaps you could do something similar to the Saurfang story. Perhaps create a new tag like Red Blades of Kozgugore (or Durator!)

I hope you don’t mind me suggesting this, I realise I am not part of the guild (and evidently also not an Orc!). It just makes me sad to see people I care about so sad about this, and disillusioned about characters they have put so much time and energy into building stories for.

-Peace

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Having had been put through the same crap of being removed due to inactivity after trying to argue the point of community I was part of, actively posting in the chat, talking to members outside of playing wow since I stopped playing.

I will never EVER understand how people think activity means more to you than the friendships you formed by being with those people for YEARS. That is so gross to me.

“Oh but we gotta keep face.” Yeah and those people you’ve removed would be able to validate your promise to RP, your love for the guild. Instead you remove them for your own activity numbers, your own desires, your own look in the public eye.

Ah, really screw WHOEVER puts that stuff above others. You’re not community builders, your powergrabbers and I will never ever support such a thing if you remove old wood because it no longer pleases you being there.

Sorry to see the ORB go the same way as others. I wish all those affected the best and hopefully you can establish your own place to call home again. It won’t be the same, but it will be something you can call home for all those thrown to the wayside.

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Presumably, the appeal of guilds like Orcs of the Red Blade is–as others have pointed out–its longevity and the loyalty of its membership, so cutting veterans out of the community Discord (to whatever extent that has happened) is counter-intuitive to the culture that’s been built up over the years.

I would be curious to see what the explanation of the ‘new’ officers is though, since the narrative on the thread has been established/led by Kozgugore so far – which isn’t to say that he’s in the wrong, only that it’s difficult to say with certainty from an outside perspective when the other side of things has thus far only tried to damage control the rollicking they’ve gotten so far.

If it really is a matter of changing the concept from what it’s been established as previously, on the roleplay side of things, it would probably be better to simply branch out and make a new guild. With a seventeen year old community it’s going to be very difficult to do something new when there are people around who have been doing things in a certain way for well over a decade.

But then again, I’m a forum regular with no connection to the guild or topic, so my advice might be entirely out of place.

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Step 1: Infiltrate the body.
Step 2: Segregate.
Step 3: Throw vital organs out everywhere while galivanting around for everyone to see.
Step 4: Extract self from corpse. Clap, cheer and offer support from an ‘unsuspecting’ position.
Step 5: When onlookers aren’t convinced, bring in the simps to cheer the abhorrent behaviour on display with tales of positivity.
Step 6: Bury head in sand when all else fails.
Step 7: Quietly assimilate corpse into small collective of guilds that avoid the rest of the RP community. Enjoy resting on the laurels of another’s work.

Classic powerhungry Blood Elf RPer move.

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I’ve been debating whether or not to post something here, but I suppose it can’t hurt.

I would like to offer the perspective of an outsider to the guild, for what that matters. Take what I’m saying with a pinch of salt- while I am being truthful as far as I know, you can never take a full account of what happens behind closed doors that you are not privvy to.

As for who I am:

I’ve been a part of AD for a good long while now, and had various small interactions with the ORB throughout that time. After the incidents mentioned earlier in the thread which I didn’t know about at the time I was in the same guild as Rargnasha for a while until he had to commit himself more to IRL stuff and he always seemed lovely to me - calm, chill sort. I’ve been running more actively in the same extended circle as the ORB for a couple years now through being part of a guild that does semi-frequent cross guild campaigns with them.

As for what I know about this particular blow-out:

In my time on the server and interacting briefly with the ORB, I have not… really seen many of the names now appearing to call themselves the heart of the guild. Maybe that is my fault for being a bit too shy, but I couldn’t have rightfully said who was in charge of things on an OOC level. In the past couple years however, the Skywises have definitely been the face of the guild to outsiders and the people I most associate with it. When I think of ORB, I think of them.

Reading through this thread and from the little I know, it seems like older members weren’t as active and weren’t logging on frequently. As part of keeping the guild running more active folk were handed the reigns to keep it going, and they decided to make changes that they thought would help keep it going. That involves recruitment of new people who - because they know each other primarily through wow - didn’t get to know the older members who knew each other through other stuff more at that point. There was some sort of discord kerfuffle, and now people are leaving.

The rightness or wrongness of certain claims in this thread, I’m not going to address. All I can say is that from an outside perspective it doesn’t look like there was a ‘coup’ or a ‘snatching of a guild tag’. Just that, as people grow and their priorities shift, some people put more into the active-roleplaying-guild bit of the ORB and others into the more background community of it, and that these two groups are now in a disagreement. If the GMship has been lost to an ‘automated game mechanic’ as Koz says - that means he hasn’t logged into the game in over three months before it happened, which is probably why I as an outsider don’t really know him all that well but I do know the Skywises.

At the end of the day it sounds like a disagreement over what the “Orcs of the Red Blade” is. Is it a WoW roleplaying guild, or a discord/friendship community? The two are certainly not mutually exclusive, but they are distinct. By the sounds of it, that distinction was made earlier in the year in the addition of a social rank - something that wouldn’t bother me and I’ve seen as a standard practice in many guilds over the years, but that I can understand might not be a solution fit for every situation. But these distinct ideas also have different needs. A wow guild needs to recruit, to run events, to be active, or it’ll die. A friendship group needs to be discerning and tightly-knit, or it’ll fracture.

All I can say is that it’s a shame this has all blown up. The Skywises seem like good people, kind people, from what interactions I’ve had with them and that isn’t always true on the internet. Likewise I am sure that many of the older members aren’t here just trying to ruin someone else’s day, they are trying to preserve something they feel has been lost.

I just hope that this ramble has been useful third-party context for… whoever happens to stumble across this thread. Take care, everyone.

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I don’t know the details about what happened recently, with this peculiar takeover/coup that seems to have happened, but like the post above I think it might be worth adding a bit of context to the Red Blades here.

There is a lot of talk about how the Red Blades are/were a ‘family’ or ‘community’ more than just a guild, particularly in response to the apparent sectioning off of older, inactive members of the Guild. A lot of upset about having that community suddenly removed or sealed off or somehow tainted by this divide.

I feel like it is worth informing people that this is not the first time there has been a divide in the guild that has resulted in people having their community torn away from them. This is just an odd occasion in that it’s currently happening to the people who USED to tear that community away from other people. I know this because they did it to me.

I was a member of the Red Blades for some years, and in my time with them I had a lot of great memories. It was an overall positive experience. When the guild worked how it was intended to it was great. However it is worth noting that it was not as rosy and perfect and community focused as some of the people in this thread are painting.

During one of Koz’s long periods of absence, the guild became very (ironically) clannish, specifically in regards to a social clique made up of a few of the older members, but mostly one specific older members and the people they were friends with. I won’t name names but anyone who was around at the time likely knows what I’m talking about. This clique ended up causing an unfortunate situation in which, both in and out of character, the ‘spotlight’ such as there was one in the Red Blades was always pointed at one of these people. They had an unusually high chance of becoming officers if they weren’t already, they ended up being given important roles in guild events, and important IC roles, while people who were not members of this group were largely left out, and people who were actively disliked by this group were often purposefully punished or excluded.

When these complaints were raised to the officers, and to Koz, the response was to ignore the issue completely. This essentially resulted in the people who were concerned being told by the very group they were concerned about, to shut up because there wasn’t a problem according to them.

This understandably didn’t satisfy those of us who had these concerns. While we didn’t break any of the guild’s rules, we made a point of not letting this issue die just because the clique we were concerned about wanted us to be quiet. Because the in and out of character treatment continued unabated, there was eventually an in-character conversation between several members of the guild whose characters had been IC effected by this state of affiars, to essentially protest their treatment within the Clan.

When this was heard about, everyone who was involved in that conversation was unceremoniously and without warning purged from the guild. Not for actually breaking any of the guild’s rules, but because the clique that was our concern made up the majority of the (at the time) active officers, and the inactive officers from what I heard later on from other members of the guild, seemed to be rubber stamping anything they wanted. It is also worth noting that not everyone at that meeting WAS removed from the guild. Only those of us who had made out of character comments about the issue before hand, be they in the Guild’s discord or in private communications with the officers.

This essentially ruined WoW RP for me for a long time and caused me to quit the game until very recently, as you might expect. Because as people are saying in this thread in does suck when a community you cared about deeply and spent a lot of time and energy on, suddenly turns on you.

I’m not saying the older members deserved what happened, or that what has happened is good. I don’t know enough of the details to really judge anything. I’m just…wanting people to understand that the Red Blades was not as caring as some of the people in this thread are trying to paint.

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Given the nature of online communities – particularly roleplay/hobby communities – it would be some kind of miracle if a seventeen year old guild was completely innocent of drama/wrongdoing from its longstanding membership over the years.

Therein lies the problem of uncritically accepting what’s announced as fact, when there isn’t actually any proof beyond the accounts of people who are, presumably, friends and roleplay partners of Kozgugore.

There’s also a bit of apparent confirmation bias at play. Some of the posters in this thread have decided that the new/current officers are in the wrong because they’re connected to or include someone that these posters have a pre-existing disdain for, and because of that they’ve jumped in to start throwing punches.

Again, I’m not saying that Kozgugore is wrong, and he probably/evidently has legitimate reasons to feel aggrieved, as he and his friends have expressed. But at the same time, that doesn’t therefore make the other group the villains – hence why I’d be interested to see their explanation of it all.

Sometimes it’s a simple mistake made with the best of intentions. Sometimes it’s a communication mess-up. Given that roleplayers aren’t always known for their social skills, the latter is a very common reason for drama.

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I never truely honestly believe that this day would ever actually come. But here it is, the slow death of red blade. A guild that has been here since vanila, 17 years, that’s a long time.
I was part of the guild, as Rrosh’tul for the stretch of… 4-5 years? Some of you who knew/know me, might be able to correct me on this. I wont use this to add to the discussion above, because I think at this point everything needed to be said, have been said in some sense or form. I will however use it to speak out to my old friends that I hope still see me as such.
Koz, Krogon, Karak, Rhon, Karak, Gashuk, Sadok and all of you old bunch.

Hope you’re all doing well, I am, thanks for the memories, orcs of the red blade got me through a hard time, in which i didn’t really have anywhere else to go but the guild, so thanks for that.

Kind regards, Groggy, Grogona Wolfheart

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What is done is done, but I suggest the new leadership should reset the years on ORB as the guild that was around since vanilla is more or less officially dead.

So if you guys are still around by this time next year you can celebrate your 1 year anniversary.

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is that hollow prestige really all that matters to the old guard posters here? holy moly

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:point_up:

Just gonna give this post a boost for added views; it deserves it.

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For you it sounds hollow, but for us it’s not.
It’s the exact equivalent of let’s say a music band changing all their members (by harassing the older ones to leave) at some point and their whole genre but continuing to claim they’re the same band and they’re been around for ages.

I have nothing against new clique for trying to lead a guild in their own style and doing their own take on orc rp. But instead of building it from the ground and risking it to flop they instead opted of taking over an already established name just because it would get people to join easier.

And I bet it’s the same prestige that made the new clique take over in the manner they did, because otherwise they would’ve gone their separate way and make their own guild with the style of leadership they wanted.

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Unbent and unbowed … we adventure into the very corners of the unknown … and a cornered wolf is bound … to fight back …

For when you call one wolf … you invite the pack …

Rough and tragic, it seems. I’ve not had much to do with these guys but kudos for sticking with orcing past the apocalyptic collapse that was WoD.

Never expected to see you posting here, Grogs - but man, am I glad to see you nontheless.<3
And it is so good to hear you’re doing well!
Please, if you can find the time, reach out to me over on Discord @ Mimerss#1463 - We are many that would love to speak with you again.
//Rashka

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I’ll chime in with the last 2 cents I have to my name and say that I’m very disappointed to see how things turned out.

I’ve been in this guild since early Cata, seen plenty of ups and downs and helped reforming the guild after its hiatus, then spent a good while as an officer and have no shortage of good memories from the time spent here, but along with other members I also chose to bow out for reasons that others here have put to words much better than I could have.

Best of luck to the remaining members going into the future. I’ll miss being in a place where I can treat warlocks and death knights like the punching bags they are.

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A lot of things have been said here and for those who have approached it with calm discussion and input, you have my sincere thanks. The last few weeks have been tough but we think it’s time to settle things so let me talk about what happened and what that looks like.

Firstly let me clarify a couple of points:

  • There was no ‘Hostile Takeover’. As Kozgugore has clarified above, he voluntarily stepped down so that Red Blade would continue in a different form, even if he wasn’t happy with what that looked like personally. We truly love this guild and didn’t want to see it ‘die’ either, so we chose to try and continue its stories and keep it active in the community.

  • No one was kicked from the Discord. This was not a step we took, for people’s inactivity or for any other reason. I don’t know why some felt they needed to claim this. I have shared screenshots of the Discord audit log that would show these ‘kicks’ with Kozgugore and there are none there.

  • The changes to the Discord structure were not a targeted attack on the older membership, this was done in an effort to nurture the budding active community we were rebuilding after SL wiped out so much Rp activity and was based off concerns we had received regarding feeling overwhelmed and in some cases intimidated by the wider membership, many of which they could share no common story with as they were inactive. I am not going to claim these changes worked as intended, but the motivation behind them was to help our membership.


Even with these clarifications in mind, there is a lot of anger and hurt that has been expressed and it has led us to the position where we do not feel comfortable trying to continue the story of the Red Blade. If our contribution and the contribution of members we have brought into the community means so little, we feel it is best to separate and begin a new project with a clean start where none can claim we did not build it ourselves.

I have been in communication with Kozgugore since the day he announced his departure in this thread and we have agreed that he will take custodianship of the Red Blade guild and Discord while myself and the majority of the current active membership begin something new. To be clear, this was a mutually agreed decision and he has been very clear that he is not forcing us into this choice and that ORB could have continued despite all of this. However, it is the decision of myself and Verzan that the anger and accusations that we have been targeted with mean we aren’t comfortable to continue and that we don’t wish to bring anyone else into this environment.

We have been speaking with our active members and most will be making this journey with us after feeling hurt and dismissed by many of the recent comments, so the Orcish adventure will continue under a new banner. This has been a devastating decision to make but we believe a clean break from the feelings expressed in this thread will be the best for both sides so that we can heal and move on.

We did our best for this guild, keeping it active during a period of Rp drought and slowly rebuilding it into something with impact and memorable Rp across the server and I will cherish many of those memories despite everything that has happened. I cannot say we did not make mistakes but our intention was always to keep the Red Blade story alive and the community strong. It seems our focus on the budding active membership led to disagreements, especially with Kozgugore, but I hope we can all move on from this and enjoy the communities we have created.

Kozgugore has been especially reasonable and respectful in the discussions we’ve been having these last few days and I’d like to express my thanks and appreciation for his approach to this situation, even if we do not agree on everything. I hope the Red Blade community finds what it is looking for and maybe if we cross paths again in some future time we can share a story or two.

Thank you for everything Red Blade,
Skywise signing off.

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Thank you for everything Red Blade,
Skywise signing off.

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As someone who’s nothing more than an audience to this drama that’s spilled out onto the forums, I hope your plans moving forward work out. It seems pretty clear that you didn’t deserve the vitriol and accusations of malice thrown your way, and it can’t be easy wrangling a guild with such a storied history - especially so when you’re a relatively new member/officer in the overall scale of the community.

Hopefully you’ll be able to enjoy more creative freedom in whatever your successor concept turns out to be.

Since you’ve resolved things with Kozgugore now, I won’t comment in too much detail on how the discourse in this thread has appeared to me as an outsider. What I will say, however, is that the unending stream of old-guard members coming out to lambast the new officers should probably consider their behaviour in future. Accusations of bullying feel a little weak when it appears coordinated and performative with essay-post after essay-post saying largely the exact same thing.

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