I see countless streamers, YouTubers, friends who say the classes are way too complicated, even the game as well.
Was not going to make a thread, but then I saw this post on MMO-C
I think they need to turn it way back. The classes are way too complicated
What do you think? disregarding all the streamers and other people telling you this? Do YOU think its too complicated?
No, it really isn’t. If you want to play something with complex mechanics, try out Paradox Interactive’s games like Crusader Kings and Europa Universalis.
I think convoluted is a better word. They’re not that complicated as in difficult but there are a lot of moving parts.
On top of knowing your spells and building your talents correctly you have all of this:
For end game you need to gear up correctly with the right stats (secondaries particularly) and then the right enchantments, gems and other buff.
You need a bunch of addons. Then you need weak auras.
Then you need ratings and achievements to prove yourself. Which can be tricky since without these finding a group might be near impossible.
None of these are particularly hard in their own right but there isn’t much by way of a learning curve to get to grips with them.
You need to do your homework on wowhead, icy veins and discords or whatever.
I allready said in my post, its too complex.
I think most people had more fun with their classes pre warth
Yeah, but 90% (casuals) dont use reddit, forum and so on. and not brand new people
I disagree, i dont think its too complex. Some classes are worst than others but in general its not difficult to perform to a satisfactory level. The class reworks that are happening at the moment are also trimming out some of this.
I would say there are way to many spell pr class. also too many debuffs
I don’t think it’s a bad thing that classes has a lot of abilities, and options to get even more buttons to click. This allows higher skill sealing.
You can also have complexity with 6 buttons, but forcing players clicking them in complex sequences via procs, stacking buffs, etc.
As for the gameplay - at times it feels that some enemies/bosses has a bit to much going on at once - the worst cases were in S1 dungeons, when 4mobs trash packs had 11-12 different dangerous mechanics (NO, TOJS were clear winners). I don’t think dungeon bosses should have 3+ different phases with a total of 10+ different mechanics - at times it feels like a raid boss (for example some of the fights in the new mega dungeon).
On one hand wow is very easy - very accessable game with easy controls and very clear enemy attacks, etc. On the other hand - when 10 of these attacks overlap and you need to do split seccond decisions - it can get rough at times. Still, there has to be hard content to catter 0.01%, and there is enough easy content for the remaining population. It’s just people should set their goals right and not necesserly try to reach more than theu can chew (for example my goal for this season is to complete all +20 on both weeks - I won’t go beyond to 21/22 even if I could).
they are not complex lmao
more like convoluted mess of a skills gathered from previous expansions baked into talent tree
and i have every class on level 70 ilvl 400
most of the time i just choose passive talents cause i cba to click more than 4 skills
even my rogue have always baked slice and dice causei absoletly HATE THIS ABILITI
and want it gone
This is exactly it! People expect to be able to do the hardest content and when they fail they complain that the game is too hard to the content is tuned to much. Expectations often do not match reality and this is when people who are not realistic about their skill level get upset.
I am an old slow player so i manage my expectations accordingly rather than get upset when i cant clear +25s
wow is as complex as having mobs with a lot of health is considered good challenge.
we did have a lot of spells before, then there was a pruning, then we had less talents, then people complained about it (didn’t we ever?)… all i know that i now have almost too many openers in my rotation and less versatility in changing my talents “on the go” because i have to recalculate what happens at the bottom of the tree
so, yea: you can never make everyone happy and they probably went for “a trouble shared is a trouble halved”
What youre saying is kind a hypocrite dont you think?
Yeah I think my spec having over 30 cooldowns and 13-15 spells to do damage iirc might be overdoing it a bit actually.
Frostbolt
Glacial Spike
Ray of Frost
Flurry
Comet Storm
Frozen Orb
Blizzard
Shifting Power
Ice Lance
Arcane Explosion
Ice Nova
Frost Nova (to shatter the glacials and comet storms)
Pet Nova (to shatter the glacials and comet storms)
And then in PvP I add Frost Bomb and Ring of Fire
And yes I spec into all of this at the same time.
Might be a little over the top around here I mean I’m just saying. And if that’s simple, and people say it is all the time, I’d hate to see what the difficult looks like
looks at arcane
Oh, right.
We haven’t even gotten to the defensives yet.
This game does not need more than 24 combat abilities for any spec at any one time. This is just stupid.
No, I think what he’s saying is it’s full of bloat he doesn’t like that doesn’t add much complexity but makes it harder to play. I think there is a slight miscommunication between him and the OP.
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Also, virtually every person I’ve spoken to who quit Dragonflight told me they did so because of the class complexity. Even top rated players are complaining loudly about it now.
Some specs/classes/builds do have too many situational spells. The difference between playing a good augmentation vs devastation build can easily mean the difference of 3 or 4 extra spells. Then with a bunch of them being conditional, it’s really hard to get used to them and have muscle memory .
I think this is the main problem… Lots of optional and conditional stuff that’s causing a bloat, preventing muscle memory. I literally forget certain spells even exist at times because I rarely get to press them. I can’t fit them into a rotation, and due to lots of abilities being in the class tree instead of spec tree, you can’t easily reduce the bloat on 1 spec while not the other.
That said, with the amount of class bloat buttons I had on devastation, I don’t even have enough actionbar slots to fit all my augmentation buttons.
Depends on the sort of in-game activities you want to do. Some specs have more abilities, some have less, but for activities such as leveling, open world content, normal dungeons, non ranked pvp, you will likely do fine with your simple 4-5 spell rotation, 1-2 heals and saves, 1-2 interrupts, some mobility boost abilities, and that’s it.
You don’t have to think much about positioning, mobs have very simple mechanics, and you will rarely die. You aren’t punished for building a bad talent tree. You can do just fine.
And this is where one of the problems of getting into the end game occurs. Turns out many of the spells you haven’t touched at all, now suddenly require you to use them. For example, as a new warlock player, I never used the teleport spell during levelling, I didn’t care much about controlling who my demon is targeting, i never bothered using soulstone or thinking about the efficiency of my rotation. I survived just fine. I never required to look for a 3rd player to do any wanted quest, it specifically says that 3 are recommended, but me and my wife could kill any such mob with just the two of us easily.
I don’t know many other popular games where you have to actively read guides about how to play your class efficiently, and because of class balancing that can change every month, where last month your spec was great, this month it has become garbage and some talents have been removed and others added, it can be hard to follow. On top of that you are kind of forced in to downloading and setting up addons that help you play the game.
From that comes the large gap between veteran players and new players. A new player joins a dungeon, he isn’t allowed to have time to analyze anything that’s happening, the dungeon is just rushed through in the most efficient way possible, and if god forbid you pull a pack of mobs that weren’t supposed to be aggroed per the specific “efficient run/through meta of this dungeon” you will either be called out in the chat or even kicked. It can become a pretty anxious and bad experience. Sometimes the dungeon leader will lead the team through a dangerous shortcut, you can fall and die or pull a whole bunch of mobs you are not supposed to if you have no experience in how to manoeuvre this shortcut. And this is just about the damage role, but what if the spec you have been levelling is a healer or a tank, if you are new, you will suck and if you suck, it’s much easier to unwillingly sabotage the whole run as a new tank or healer player than a dps player.
And I can understand the mindset of the veteran player - they just want to get their loot from this dungeon they have been doing for the hundredth time, they don’t want to waste their time and wait on somebody, but this attitude is not good for the overall longevity of the game we love. It pushes new player away, snd without those the game will die.
There is a reason wow is not popular in e-sports despite having a sizable playerbase. Each class has so many abilities, the enemy has the same amount of abilities, so much is going on, it is incomprehensible and therefore not interesting to watch. I played league for a month back in 2014, and just after a month of playing a moba for the first time in my life, i could understand and enjoy the world championship. I have been playing for 9 months almost daily now, mostly pvp, and I can’t understand wth is going on when i tried watching last awc.
Anyways, i wish there was some sort of mentorship system in random dungeon and raid finder where a veteran player who passes some sort of dungeon and raid experience criteria is automatically put in as leader of the random dungeon and raid in is somehow rewarded by blizzard if the other players give him some sort of positive rating based on how well he interacted and helped the group through the instance. The reward can be some unique gear or cosmetic tabard or cape. There are games that have these sort of systems implemented, with various results, but it’s worth a try. Like a title “community mentor”, they won’t have any special powers like it was with the gm’s just simple transmogs and a title.
Oh and i almost forgot to add - no other game genre requires so many keybinds. I can’t imagine playing without my 12 sidebutton mmo mouse that has additional left and right scroll wheel clicks on top of all that.
Most people’s hands will feel comfortable enough on a wasd position, binding something on 1-5, f1-f4x q,e, c, r f, v, but more than that and it’s hard on your hands. I don’t remember my fingers hurting that much when i learned to stretch them for learning guitar chords, however, however i am still unable to press shift or ctrl key as modifiers for additional binds, so i had to bind 2 of my mmo mouse side buttons to shift and ctrl for that.
tell me mr.
in what situation on earth would you use arcane shot on bm hunter ?
if you find me a reason i delete emote
You have to stop playing the game, you should start feeling the game !
this is 100% true dude.
im feeling like i dont want to hit some stupid demons with my glaive i think its most idiotic skill they ever done
so i just pick the other one 
mostlikely a passive
Most classes had a 2 button rotation in Wrath, which was the opposite of fun.
Right now some classes are needlessly complex (and annoying) because they went through multiple iterations of balancing which broke their cohesion.
Having depth and requiring decision making are perfectly fine since some people do enjoy it, as long as each spec has an “EZ mode” build that gives decent throughput. Which is the case currently for most classes.