Havoc is oversaturated with Haste yet again

Classes Demon Hunter
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The spec is being set up for a second Battle for Azeroth regarding reliance on external procs to do damage.

If under the effects of Fodder to the Flame, Metamorphosis and Furious Gaze you end up at 58% haste without any equipped items (assuming the correct time of day for Night Elves or playing Blood Elves, since Touch of Elune grants 1% haste at night).

Add Bloodlust to that and you end up at 105,6% haste. No items. The haste soft cap of 100% is reached and exceeded, greatly lowering the value of haste.

You are most likely not going to end up without a single item granting you haste, and other covenants also can grant haste through soulbinds - Hammer of Genesis of Forgelite Prime Mikanikos, Kyrian; Thrill Seeker of Nadija the Mistblade, Venthyr; or being granted haste through a proc of a friendly healer’s Niya’s Herbs, Night Fae.

This is exacerbated by the redesigned Cycle of Hatred, which introduces a positive feedback loop to the spec - Eye Beam grants you haste through Furious Gaze (and even more haste if using Demonic), and more haste (up to 100%) lets you cast Chaos Strikes faster to reduce the cooldown of Eye Beam to cast it again. Blind Fury helps in this regard since it effectively grants you almost 4 free Chaos Strikes (due to the refunds, the effective cost is 32 fury without any enhancing effects) after casting Eye Beam.

To make things worse, a legendary that can instantly reset Eye Beam’s cooldown exists.

It gets even crazier if we reach the haste that makes Demon Blades take off towards near-infinite fury, as it is the only source of fury that infinitely scales with haste.

The reason it is bad is it makes haste the third bad secondary stat, following mastery and crit. Versatility will be king once more.

The spec needs reasons to use other secondary stats instead of getting an aura buff after an aura buff and having to rely on external sources of power due to the inbuilt tools being pitifully weak.

Baseline Eye Beam suppresses haste and crit.
Due to how strong First Blood is, it makes mastery sort of a joke when used - it however competes with Cycle of Hatred which might mean it does not get picked.

Please remove the absurd amounts of haste from the base toolkit and instead introduce scaling that might also serve as tuning knobs.

A couple of suggestions:
Chaos Strike could refund fury on crit as it used to be in Legion. To reduce the feeling of feast or famine, have each strike crit separately and refund a lower amount of fury. Have Chaos Strike rank 2 increase the refund by a bit, and Chaos Strike rank 3 to increase crit chance by 10% instead of increasing damage.
If the above is applied, have Annihilation increase crit chance by 30% instead of increasing damage. If that’s not enough to tune crit to reasonable levels, add a crit damage bonus.

Have Death Sweep (and perhaps Throw Glaive) deal Chaos damage during Meta, but do not modify the damage formula (to keep the baseline damage of DS similar, but have another way to boost the value of mastery).

Remove the haste suppression of Vengeful Retreat when talenting Momentum - perhaps make the CD scale with haste? Or to stop mobility from becoming overwhelming, have haste increase the fury generation?

Furious Gaze needs to die in a fire. Demonic should last 8 seconds, but could disable the Metamorphosis invocation if talented?

The Eye Beam/Blade Dance cooldown reset when invoking Metamorphosis should also die - as much as I hate the word, it feels clunky due to completely forcing you into a set course of action while Legion Meta was pretty liberal in its use, which was pretty important due to the extremely long cooldown.

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I just want to point out that people didn’t ask for the crazy amounts of haste. They begged for it during the alpha (or early beta, forget). So this is actually one of the few times Blizzard responded and directly implemented stuff based off of player feedback.

I don’t really play DH, so i might be really off here. But doesn’t this risk turning meta into a single button? With decent haste, crit and demon blades. You could hypothetically just press Annihilation over and over and over. And turn the entire spec into 2 buttons with the new Cycle of Hatred, as CoH would presumably proc of crits?

The rotation would be auto attack until you have enough fury for the first Eye beam followed by Annihilation/Chaos Strike until the cooldown of Eye beam is over.

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It indeed was a response to feedback, that does however mean it was either a poor response (most of the time, user complaints point towards an issue, but the proposed resolution is horrible, that’s just how it is in software development) or people were asking for things without consideration of the entire class (similar to how some Warlock players kept asking for Life Tap to be gone and then being surprised their relative mobility and sustain was lower than before).

It is if Annihilation’s refund amount is overtuned, however something similar is already in the game with the 40% chance to refund fury on cast and using Memory of Lucid Dreams - and it’s not being used. Granted, the proc chances are probably too low for it to matter currently, but that’s where the crit scaling comes in. Splitting fury into two separate procs helps prevent the issue mentioned, since even if you reach 70% crit on annihilation, you only have a 49% chance to get a refund twice. The law of averages and law of large numbers indicate that getting too many refunds should not be an issue - even if it is, one can always fine-tune the crit chance bonus, the refund amount, all that.

Shadowlands Havoc also sports Immolation Aura becoming baseline and generating 20 fury on cast without any talents, so it would help with that first drought when you start the fight, but that would be pretty much it (if you can even call pressing a single button a rotation), yeah.

You point towards a valid thing, which is that the Cycle of Hatred cooldown reduction is probably too strong - or it could be the fact that it’s the first interaction between abilities that Havoc has received since ever and there’s no comparison to be made elsewhere in the toolkit.

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Im sorry but proposing buffs to the most broken 3 key spec ingame since legion years is kind of absurd.

They have been a must in each and every aspect of the game and they did pretty much close to top, instead of buffs there should be more nerfs so that other abandoned specs would take their place.

We cant have a dh-rogue-rdruid dominating this game forever, things must change at last.

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…What?

I want the scaling issues fixed, and pushing too much of flat stats into the spec out of the game. The output is irrelevant. If the issue is not fixed, it’s going to end up just as it is right now, where 70+% of Havoc’s damage is not even related to their toolkit at all, and where procs reign supreme. Not to mention that I’m not even asking to revert any of the nerfs that the spec received since they were somewhat overdone, but still fair.

Why are Gushing Wounds, Infinite Stars and Lash of the Void so strong when used by Havoc? Because of hasted proc rates while Havoc constantly floats at or above 100% haste, further propped up by having versatility as the very best secondary stat since 8.0.

This is the issue I would like to avoid, as numerical tuning is easily hotfixable with aura buffs, whereas mechanical tuning usually only happens with major patch releases.

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I have 0 argue to what you say about haste and how hey use it, but still the spec is by far the easiest to play and outrageously rewarding for a very low to no effort.

You cant ask buffs for something that is already broken, sorry :slight_smile:

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In ptr, it is very weak. That’s not right, the right thing will be to return more talents and more abilities in order DH to maintain their power level on the price of coordinations. But they lead the whole game in procs and cons, ups and downs.

This is just not right. Rogs on the other side is stronger but it matters not. The topic is for haste. I fully agree every class should rely on all four stats, not only one to be strong. This is the whole idea of the items, to give you something for some specific situation.

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I dont know what changed from last month but around a month ago i was doing M+ in beta and ive seen a DH shining .

They deserve twice the nerfs DH does because unlike DH’s they are mandatory for their toolkit, like Rdruid.

I play shadow/ww/MW/holy/disc and have a good xp from rdruid. I can tell you that all these classes rely in 2 stats as DH does. That does not make the DH any less different so you dont need to demand special treatment.

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They will remain mandatory because they have a unique toolkit. It is not how it works - blizzard just like one or two classes to be busted. And I do not want special treatment, but it is funny that you can rely only on haste.

Like at the end of BFA, warlock went fully haste corruption and only haste in the items. This is a very poor level of design. As I said, all classes should rely on all 4 stats. Mastery will give you more in some specific situation, haste on the other.

Making haste the most important stat, especially at the start, it is just not cool. And I can tell you that I did with demo warlock 20k in m+, DH was doing 8. I do not know how it shines but almost every other class beat it.

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So all that dominated BFA M+ like rogs/dh/protwar/rdruid should be nerfed to the ground imo, because others specs need to shine.

Nerfed not only in the output, but in the toolkit like the DH nerfs in its dodge and leech.

That would make the game healthier for all the rest 8 classes except them, a good deal for the majority.

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And mages. But it wont happen. Just a quick question: why do you think rdruid are so busted. I noticed that 8.3 actually made them less desirable in m+. Pala destroyed them and even in io holy is probably 8 out of top 10.

For tanks, DH tank is a good option, DK seems really nice, Pala. For DPS - you just need rog, even 2 rog will make your life far more easier. DH you can easily skip already.

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Mages are top in season 4, asides that in the first 3 seasons spamming M+ like a madman hardly seen anyone. It was a good call to see them alive in just one season, same goes with huntards.

Pala is a high risk, high reward healer.
Does not carry:
Innervate
Roots
Soothe
Mobility
Typhoon
rebirth
Vortex
prowl

Do i have to make a special PoV of their way to mitigate damage with guardian affinity+switch hitter, barkskin, ironbark and bear form?

Hpala shined the last season and that was only because of their damage, still not even close to Rdruid according to RIO. They are disgusting inside raiding for sure, to a point i feel they should delete this class but not even close to that inside M+,still a top tier pick

Dk seems nice?
Try healing one in high keys + fortified weeks. No they are not nice, thats why they get a baseline defensive in SL.

No you dont need a rogue unless its TD,
As you carry a mage which is mandatory at this point and me a shadow priest the mandatory pick for us is DH because of the debuff.

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I am talking for SL. I am not talking for BFA. In SL rogs will remain very strong I switched form mage to warlock because they seem busted (despite the affliction nerf but it was needed for raid, cmon it was…) and from DH to Rog, because it is simple but extremely powerful (despite the stun removed).

  1. Warlock (Demo) - insane damage, prob will get nerfed (22k vs 10avg)
  2. Rog - extremely high damage, super-strong utility, very good survivability, melee <3.

DH is kind of weak and very RNG (too much to be healthy). Mage is horrible - frost I mean. Fire will be busted at the end of the expansion again so I will maintain mage for any case :smiley:

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Can you point to a single area where I am asking for a buff? I simply want secondaries other than Versatility to not be DOA, which is in turn a nerf to survivability since you need to do more than just stack vers ad nauseam.

The huge amounts of haste the spec gets passively right now, combined with the fact that vers is the best stat to stack causes Havoc to deal obscene amounts of damage through trinkets and procs, which is entirely passive. Through nerfing the relevant secondaries, Blizzard can make DH skill floor at least slightly higher by making Havoc work for the damage.

I do not know why you equate adding scaling to have more tuning knobs with buffing the spec, especially since any underperformer gets an aura buff anyway, but I’m hoping that’s a misunderstanding of game design on your part.

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Oh trust me, they wont leave rogs with a busted damage and their superior toolkit as they did in s1-2-3.
If they do, the first that will go berserk in the forums will be me and that is something i never did before.

We cant need a specific class to do M+, this is OUTRAGEOUS.

I did not see it weak at all in M+ i did… Said again dont know if they nerfed something but honestly should be weak because it dominated the whole bfa with 3 keys.

Yeah sure.

Because as i told you before all classes rely on 2 stats mainly, now in SL we have to take shtstats as well because they will be diminished returns.

Honestly?
I dont wanna be rude but i destroyed BFA playing because i had time, specially in S4. If you think that there is any misunderstanding here… I think youre biased towards your class.

DH was busted from legion till now(assuming its weak now because i did not see it weak), enough is enough. Sorry.

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Ronda, as I said it was not the strongest class. We argued 1 000 000 times. DH was very strong but never the strongest. I really cannot see your point man.

In m+, Rog was superior the whole BFA, even in 8.3 Rog was just more DPS, I started playing rog 8.3 as well.
Rog has better utility, better survivability, better AOE, better ST if changes spec than DH.

For raids, DH is a great support class for all magic dps. But still it is behind warlocks, mages, arms warriors. Even in your logs that is proved.

In the arena, last tournaments we did not see even one DH, actually we havent seen anything but warlocks and mages for obvious reasons.

I say it again :slight_smile: DH is very strong. You need it 1 but it is not a MUST. In BFA must or S+ were: Rog, RDruid for m+, Prot war. DH was always strong A, but never S+. Same goes for PVP. Mages, Warlocks are S+. DH is kind of A-.

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Well, still waiting on it chief, cause that one was a non argument.[quote=“Rondakungfu-stormscale, post:15, topic:186020”]
Because as i told you before all classes rely on 2 stats mainly, now in SL we have to take shtstats as well because they will be diminished returns.
[/quote]

You will have to use a suboptimal stat distribution due to diminishing returns, that’s true. My issue is that Havoc effectively has one, vers, due to having nothing but stat penalizing interactions in the toolkit, be it through giving too much stat for free (haste), having no interactions with crit other than guaranteed crits on Eye Beam or just the fact that mastery is tied to abilities with extra effects tacked on to make the spells relevant, thus reducing the value of a damage increase.[quote=“Rondakungfu-stormscale, post:15, topic:186020”]
Honestly?
I dont wanna be rude but i destroyed BFA playing because i had time, specially in S4. If you think that there is any misunderstanding here… I think youre biased towards your class.
[/quote]

I Think you are biased against it, seeing as you provide no arguments that are neither anecdotal nor debunkable. I said it many times, I do not care about the output, I want more tuning knobs and some interaction with stats that is not just plain punishing you for having them on your gear and then having the base toolkit be overtuned due to a lack of ways to make the spec work from a dev perspective.

It was at many points, and as such I want more ways to fine-tune the spec to make it less braindead and less prone to being busted. Step back and see the bigger picture, instead of focusing on things noone tries to argue about.

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Did i say it was the strongest?
It was 1/2 that dominated BFA though.

Did you raid in BFA mate?
Did you do any M+ ?

Because the only anecdotal evidence here is you trying to change Havoc while not played BFA.

All specs i know of use mainly 2 stats excpet ench that uses most if not all, yet demand a special treatment to an already broken class for 2 expansions just to save it in SL?
No, sorry kinda disagree politely here.

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