I just came back to World of Warcraft to play Dragonflight and I have to say, I’m sorely disappointed in the Havoc DH talents.
The entire talent tree just feels like a rushed job, comparable to a high school kid that rushed their homework, barely trying to get a passing mark.
Let me give you my thoughts on a few of them:
Collective Anguish: Boring in terms of gameplay, it just boosts the damage of Eye Beam, and incredibly stupid in terms of fantasy. A random NPC Demon Hunter pops out of nowhere every time I cast Eye Beam?
The Hunt: I imagine a lot of people like this ability. I wouldn’t mind it being on the talent tree if it was optional. Personally, I’m not a fan of it, mostly because it reminds me of Shadowlands and I didn’t play that expansion for a reason. The stupid thing about this talent is that you have to take it.
Momentum: Oh god here we go again. Momentum is once again on the Talent tree and guess what? Either you take it or your damage is gutted. Most players don’t want their mobility abilities to be part of their damage rotation. It feels bad.
Essence Break: once again I wouldn’t mind this talent being on the tree if I wasn’t forced to take it. But I am. I’m not a fan of playing around this burst window, it requires an amount of preparation and planning that did not use to be necessary as a Havoc Demon Hunter.
Shattered Destiny: probably my favourite capstone talent. The problem occurs when you realize you HAVE to take Cycle of Hatred to take this, which desynchronizes your Eye Beam - Demonic - Essence Break - Death Sweep combo.
Fodder to the Flame: I was already baffled in Shadowlands that this ability was approved to be put into the game. It is SO BAD in terms of gameplay and game design. The demon spawn is RNG and more often than not spawns at inopportune times. It bugs out constantly, resetting or evading. When you kill it, you have to go out of your way to pick up the soul. It is CLUNKY and BAD. And worst of all: it’s the best talent available both in raids and in M+.
Any Means Necessary: I love the idea of this talent. Really, I do! I would love to be able to take this capstone talent alongside Shattered Destiny and maybe look for a way to play a fire damage focused Havoc DH. But I HATE HATE HATE the fact that this talent is locked behind SOULREND, a talent that basically has you pivot into a Throw Glaive oriented damage rotation. Really Blizz? Taking Soulrend means it’s optimal to take the other Throw Glaive talents too. Taking Soulrend and not going Glaive build doesn’t work.
Speaking of Throw Glaive, why are there SEVEN (7) talents in the trees for Throw Glaive? And also at least SIX (6) that modify Fel Rush? Most of these talents are to counteract the nerfs that came to these abilities with Dragonflight (reduced charges on fel rush, reduced bounces on throw glaive for example).
This is exactly what I mean when I say the entire talent tree feels like a rushed homework job of a disinterested high schooler. We deserve better than this. There is a severe lack of creativity in these trees and the result is that Havoc DHs get forced into boring, clunky and straight up frustrating playstyles, and refusing to follow the meta will net you a DPS loss of more than 20%
For those interested in the math: I simmed the meta single target talent build that takes Momentum, Essence Break, Collective Anguish, The Hunt, Fodder to the Flame and Shattered Destiny - it simmed 37k dps for me, more or less.
I then simmed a build that didn’t have the talents that I didn’t think were fun to take. I focused on Shattered Destiny and Any Means Necessary without taking all the Throw Glaive talents. It simmed 27k dps. That’s about a 23% difference.
I really hope Blizzard takes a look at Havoc Demon Hunter and decides to give their talent trees an overhaul. The way things are now, Havoc really doesn’t feel worth playing.
Most as in more than 50%. Probably not a vast majority, but certainly many. It would be a different story if it was optional, but it’s not if you want to push content.
I agree most of them. DH still needs to be reworked. I also want to edit that havoc dh damage isnt good again. Its turning out to be where DH’s were in shadowlands, currently compared to other classes…
Yup, agree with most things.
While the numbers are there for the class, the momentum builds are horrendous to play. Even worse that the best M+ build is also the throw glaive one, which to me personally feels that one of the worst specs I have ever played. Almost constantly out of fury, clunky as hell and makes no sense whatsoever. Plus it takes away the mobility and turns it into a liability if not careful enough … I know sounds good on paper to be able to decide on damage vs dodging but in practice is as bad as it gets, especially when you consider having to constantly deal with 2+ overlapping mechanics to dodge.
Essence Break: once again I wouldn’t mind this talent being on the tree if I wasn’t forced to take it. But I am. I’m not a fan of playing around this burst window, it requires an amount of preparation and planning that did not use to be necessary as a Havoc Demon Hunter.
What an absurd statement.
Shattered Destiny: probably my favourite capstone talent. The problem occurs when you realize you HAVE to take Cycle of Hatred to take this, which desynchronizes your Eye Beam - Demonic - Essence Break - Death Sweep combo.
What is the problem with having another Eye Beams inside your Essence Break cd lol?
(reduced charges on fel rush, reduced bounces on throw glaive for example).
Reduced charges on fel rush, what? So you had 3 fel rush changes at some point?
This is exactly what I mean when I say the entire talent tree feels like a rushed homework job of a disinterested high schooler
Thats even more nonsense then statements above. Our talents came in the last one and they are one of the best talents in the game in terms of gameplay.
You saying Momentum build is too good so you cant skip it? But in reality it is nerfed too much, playing that build should be even more rewardable because its high risk
The main and only downside of DH right now is the laking of single target damage due to hard nerfs to Chaos strike/Annihilation at the start of the expansion. If not that DH would be most OP spec with one of the best AOE and good ST damage
It’s hard to pass by when you see people are complaining about things that they should be happy about
That’s not the point I was trying to make. 1) Essence Break is mandatory. 2) I expressed annoyance with the desynchronisation of both 40sec CD abilities. 3) Because of this desync, they don’t always line up for your combo. That’s what annoys me.
I’m saying that Dragonflight gave us one charge baseline and they give it back to us with a talent. I think that’s lame and uncreative. Don’t expect me to be grateful or appreciative when you take something away from me and make me buy it back from you.
Once again, amazing counterargument. If something’s nonsense, explain why. When our talents came in has nothing to do with their quality. If they are the “one of the best”, explain why. All I’m getting from this is your subjective opinion, and I disagree entirely.
In reality Momentum build is significantly better in single target than non-Momentum builds. I don’t mind Momentum existing and/or being viable. The problem is that the gameplay and playstyle is annoying to me (and a lot of other people), and I don’t want to be forced to take it. Yet you’re saying Momentum should be even better ? That would only make the talent even more oppressive and would not be healthy for the spec. Talents should always be designed to be about choice and personal preference.
Here you trail off about how the only bad thing is low Single Target damage. This post has never been about damage numbers. Only damage numbers in relation to unfun talents and gameplay. The fact that we’re being forced to take said unfun talents.
You call my arguments “absurd” and “nonsense” but provide no counterargument whatsoever.
you sound like u like DH being a braindead class, lol. We really dont need that anymore. People still calling us braindead, haha.
Momentum + hunt + essence break, actually increased DH skill cap by a lot. We needed and we actually need more complexity added. But sure, we need diversifity and fun stuff also. Not just a high skill cap but boring to play class.
I’m currently running a Chaos strike / eyebeam orientated build. I know it isn’t optimal compared to the snoozefest SoulRend build and I know not everyone will find hammering chaos strike and hoping for fury refunds and x2 x3 attacks fun, but personally I find it classic DH and enjoy it a fair bit.
Eyebeam is one of my favourite abilities also.
I don’t mind soulrend but the current build path for soulrend I find a bit disgusting as it completely changes your priority / damage profile and feel. You barely press Chaos strike, in fact you probably never press it? I don’t sim for ref but it just feels like pure assh sorry. If I want to play bleed orientated i’ll log a feral thanks. I want to play an agile fast hard hitting pyscho elf that does spinny spinny strike and big lazor beams.
I don’t want to see SoulRend build removed. I’d like to see Chaos strike / Eyebeam build buffed , and potentially more hybrid options availabe
They can’t just buff chaos strike damage base otherwise it will only widen the gap
They could have made cooler interactions with throw glaive too imo. Like the Shadowlands legendary , or maybe not like it but just create a talent that has something interesting tied to it, like a charged version
Also forgot about immolate damage. Very stimulating… incredible fun…
Edit: I feel a lot of classes suffer from this but , they need more node connections. I don’t want to take unbound chaos , and Tactical retreat , to get momentum
Of course not. But at least is not braindead anymore. Its a shame to have a class like that. I agree it needs more buffs/changes. But these changes should not lower the skill cap.
