Help! They ruined devoker :((((

[Uda-uldum]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

About the overall consequences it’ll have on the game is very interesting that you bring it up, I think you heavily rely on the competitive side of wow and therefor only hear those who are both satisfied and annoyed about the current situation regarding supports, but as a semi-casual myself I cant tell you how many players I’ve met that have wanted a support spec for ages and still think there is more to gain.

I cant stop repeating what I have witnessed in S2:

I used to be competitive in S2. Then when I saw the impossibility of doing so… I went and played casually with my alts.

Only to see the same effects down the line as well.

And I dont want to get into the discussion of defining “casual” / “competitive”. And we really don’t need to either.

I am not stating my opinion. Nor am I speaking for the majority of the community. I am stating my experience, and those of many others: I, and many others were unable to enjoy M+ (the ONLY activity I do) at any level. Casual, low level, or competitive after 10.1.7.

Me specifically it was not fun anymore with the ONLY 2 toons (shaman/warrior) I have had since 2005.

I was given 2 options: (A) reroll Exodia. (B) stop playing. I chose the latter.

And I think that is unfair. Honestly. And its unfair to hear you actively trying to repeat the same experience I had in S2. And we are not comparing “opinions” here…

@Gilvion-ravencrest

so in that sense I can ONLY state what I as a player want because especially when it comes to these FACTS we can only take outside sources if either a general questionare is performed or from other competitive streamers not happy with their insanely minmaxed playstyle of the game being shaken up like this.

I am urged to repeat this again and again. What happened in S2 at the M+ scene with exodia was not a “balancing of high end issue”. It affected us ALL. It halted the M+ experience for everyone but the ones doing +5s and +10s. Anything more than that had its season ruined.

Unless you rerolled of course.

And to be honest, if EVERY external source was complaining about the same issue. When both M+ casuals, M+ hardcore and M+ competitive were complaining about the same thing. In forums, blogs, streamers, in Discord, in Youtube, in Reddit… well…

I can ascertain with 100% certainty that YES. S2 was 100% a problem for the M+ community as a whole.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

Well no spec should be deleted

OK. Nerfed so much nobody would play it over a Devastation Evoker.

They can buff it later on when they make the Support Roll.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

And I think that is unfair. Honestly. And its unfair to hear you actively trying to repeat the same experience I had in S2. And we are not comparing “opinions” here…

Now I know you think that it’s unfair, but I can honestly without a doubt say I have never experienced and issues with aug, S2 I played my BM Hunt and got to 2k, I encountered no more then 10 augs in that entire season in my keys.

I’m truly sorry if you had such a bad time in that season, but I cannot accept that it was unplayable to the degree that you are saying it was. I truly never experienced in that season or any one since. I’m really sorry but me and you had wildly different experiences.

I can understand your frustration towards this subject if it affected you to such a degree but I simply never saw or expereinced the same things you have unfortuantely, otherwise it’s possible my opinion may have differed.

But as things stand now, I do not agree with you, things can be unbalanced, and the future will definetely repeat this time and time again.

But i think you’re letting your bias greatly affect your judgement here, for instance they already aren’t a thing below 20 almost at all, this season I hit 2.5k. Not a crazy amount but I know my way around 20s and below, and I have seen 2 Augs this season. They are difficult to play, something new will always be overtuned, but as it stands rn they are hard but rewarding if you’re good.

To balance things for 25 and above is to cater to a insanely small minority.

@Uda-uldum

I can ascertain with 100% certainty that YES. S2 was 100% a problem for the M+ community as a whole.

I do not agree, I had no issues from 20 under, whcih is the majority of players as more is simply for the sake of farming rio.

@Uda-uldum

I am not stating my opinion.

Again, I’m very sorry to hear that your experiences were apperantly this bad, but this is your opinion, as far as me or those around me who played that season at a middle lvl had obserrved the same thing we always do when one spec is really good, like DH in multiple phases of DF.

This is your opinion the same way it is mine to disagree with you, that it was a problem with the balancing, yes, to a degree never seen before and game breaking, not a fact but an opinion. I’m sorry.

[Uda-uldum]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

Now I know you think that it’s unfair, but I can honestly without a doubt say I have never experienced and issues with aug, S2 I played my BM Hunt and got to 2k, I encountered no more then 10 augs in that entire season in my keys.

OK. You are saying that if you aspire to anything more than a 15+ you are considered “hardcore” and don’t deserve to play?

Because that is a really low bar. Even for S2 which was harder than S3.

Saying the game should be balanced for those than enjoy doing 14s is as ludicrous to saying it should be balanced for those playing 25s. It should be balanced for the population of wow players at-least 1 or 2 sigma from the mean key level.

I don’t know what value that is, but if I had to do an educated guess it should be balanced for people playing between a +16 and a +23 for S3.

My experiences were from keys 16+ to 20+ in S2 with my alts. VERY far from the 24s and 25s I was timing before 10.1.7.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

I do not agree, I had no issues from 20 under, whcih is the majority of players as more is simply for the sake of farming rio.

S3 is not comparable. Aug has received like 14 nerfs since exodia. And was still top pick for the first month of S3.

In S3 its kind of “barable” the situation. But Aug is being displaced ONLY because other specs had their own personal defensives buffed. Which is its own can of worms from a balancing perspective.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

This is your opinion the same way it is mine to disagree with you, that it was a problem with the balancing, yes, to a degree never seen before and game breaking, not a fact but an opinion. I’m sorry.

Its not your fault. Far from it. It was Blizzards fault.

I just hope that this time they listen. And don’t make the same mistake twice.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

I am not sure the problem was aug, or the existence of a support spec, the problem was/is the balance of a spec like that, and with it coming a very strong meta. Right now aug isn’t a real problem. We do not have a very strong meta luckily

I am only afraid a support spec like aug has only 2 options; or it is stupid overpowered or it is bad.

[Gilvion-ravencrest]

@Uda-uldum

OK. You are saying that if you aspire to anything more than a 15+ you are considered “hardcore” and don’t deserve to play?

No I said from 25 and above you are without a doubt in the minority of m+ players thats it.

@Uda-uldum

Saying the game should be balanced for those than enjoy doing 14s is as ludicrous to saying it should be balanced for those playing 25s.

I never said it should be, I said for the majority, wherever that is, and I can scarely imagine that being above 25s

@Uda-uldum

Im lost. You say you reached 2k with your BM in S2. That all keys at a +15.

Should you have wanted the TP reward (all keys on a +20) it would have taken you much more effort. Especially because of Exodia.

on both weeks if I were to put in minimal effort, it was more like 18-13 depending on the week and modifiers.

@Uda-uldum

S3 is not comparable. Aug has received like 14 nerfs since exodia. And was still top pick for the first month of S3.

In S3 its kind of “barable” the situation. But Aug is being displaced ONLY because other specs had their own personal defensives buffed. Which is its own can of worms from a balancing perspective.

It is, whats important is how fast they were able to rectify the problem, and like I said, I’m sorry you seem to be attracting them like flies, but I basically never see Augs, I see more ferals or Affliction warlocks then Augs.

@Uda-uldum

I just hope that this time they listen. And don’t make the same mistake twice.

I hope they continue to push the envelope, more of what we have is alright, but it could be better, and with the current situation being about supports as a focus point, I mainly see them as the vessel.

[Uda-uldum]

@Gilvion-ravencrest

No I said from 25 and above you are without a doubt in the minority of m+ players thats it.

25s is what I was timing (more specifically, trying to time) before 10.1.7.

After that, I could not even get invites to heal in a +20.

So then I went and played with my warrior alt in the 16+ to +20 range. And I did not have fun there either. For the same reasons.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

I can scarely imagine that being above 25s

And I agree with you.

But it cant be a 15+ either. It has to be a range (emphasis on RANGE) of key levels somewhere in between a +15 and a +25.

@Gilvion-ravencrest

It is, whats important is how fast they were able to rectify the problem, and like I said, I’m sorry you seem to be attracting them like flies, but I basically never see Augs, I see more ferals or Affliction warlocks then Augs.

My experiences so far with Aug at ANY level (both +17s with my Alt, to +27s with my main) is that people dont want Augs.

Simply because you cant measure its performance. You don’t know if its a “good Aug” or a “bad Aug”. Because the difference between the two is enormous.

Doing ANY key, at ANY level with a “bad Aug” is like doing it with 2 dps and 1 AFK. Doing it with a “good Aug” is like going with 4 dps, 2 healers and 2 tanks. Its amazing. But you cant know.

Additionally, what IS known about Aug performance is that it depends on the performance of the other players its buffing. In higher keys, you have a guarantee that people will be doing their rotation/CD management as good as possible. So the performance of Aug will also increase.

In lower keys because people tend to have lower skill (I include myself there, because I want to chill and not try-hard every key I do) so will the performance of Aug.

So as long as people are not doing +30s where you objectively “need” the deff component of an Aug, people prefer simply to play a regular DPS spec.

[Uda-uldum]

@Mistjo-argent-dawn

I am only afraid a support spec like aug has only 2 options; or it is stupid overpowered or it is bad.

Correct. And my whole argument was that all that stems from the fact that its categorized as a “DPS” and competes with other DPS for the same slot.

If they did a “support roll” similar to the “healer roll” where dungeons had a 1-1-1-3 comp… then there would not be an OP/nerf situation. Because you would balance it against other “support rolls”.

[Mistjo-argent-dawn]

Yeah… The way it was implemented it just brought too much to the table. It was supposed to be a dps, so it should have the numbers for a 3rd dps, but it also brought support to the tank and healer, which turned out to be way overpowered in season 2.

When blizz want to have a support role, it probably can only substitute a dps, since you need a healer and tank basically always (exceptions can be there), but then it should costs a certain amount of dps, in comparison with bringing 3 dps, for the delivered survivability.

With the current lenient timers that can work till a certain reasonable M+ level.

I am not sure i am a fan of 6 player dungeons. Also right now we aren’t forced to bring 1 tank, 1 healer and 3 dps. We can do whatever we want. We make our own groups. But we can also just bring 2 tanks, 1 healer and 2 dps.
Why would we bring a support when we are allowed to bring a 6th player?

[Uda-uldum]

@Mistjo-argent-dawn

But we can also just bring 2 tanks, 1 healer and 2 dps.
Why would we bring a support when we are allowed to bring a 6th player?

You “can”. But its not optimal. Today you can also run dungeons with 5 monks, or 1 tank and 4 DPS. But its not optimal.

What I say about the “support role” is not just adding a 6th slot in a dungeon. Its adding a 6th spot reserved for support specs.

It means you could run with 4 DDs if you want. But it should not be optimal.

And that is why I am doubtfull this will ever happen. Because implementing “support roll” means, among other things:

• Balancing dungeons such that you require all the CC/Def a support roll brings.
• Removing A LOT of utility from other specs, to give it to Support Rolls to make them necessary (like they did with off-healing specs when no-healer meta starts to appear).

So you need: Dungeon re-design. AND spec redesign (ALL 37 currently played).

Or, alternatively, you keep Aug in the state it currently is. OP or useless. Black or white.

Now. Its up for debate what is better: 1-1-1-3 or 1-1-1-2. I think that with the amount of wait time DPS have at the moment, the best option would be the first. It would sort of kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

But its my opinion. Dont have any arguments in favor or against it.