Yes, spot on points, ty.
I haven`t seen this video until now, but Preach provides very constructive, grassroot view of things. Great vid.
And itâs a third party resource just like I was talking about 
It was so tedious having to do it on every character and you could go do LFR or any other content without it.
We had a mage killing mythic bosses who refused to do the proving grounds so he couldnât actually queue for heroic dungeons but could take part in the most difficult raid mode.
If it as available just as a test or learn to play mode rather than an enforced you must jump through this hoop to do something as basic as a heroic dungeon I might have seen more value in it.
Your suggestion makes no sense. To get started in m+ player needs some common sense (dont stand in poop, interrupt key casts, press your 3 buttons in right order etc) and few minutes reading dungeon journal, rest comes with experience. Up to +10+12 (depends on dungeon) everything can be timed in straight manner of pulling 1 pack at time and clearing everything on the way to the end.
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That would mean they have already set up their keys, know how to move and what buttons to press =)
And that is kind of the issue. However, there is no real solution to that issue and the question is how much support you can (and should) give people who are unable to accomplish that.
Iâm always curious how people get to 3 keys. Iâm maining a monk atm and its many multiples of that.
So now that youâve shot your credibilitiy in the foot Iâm less likely to believe the rest of what you say. And I can tell you with certainty, a âpoorâ group will not time a teeming run by chugging along pack by pack.
So, just no.
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That knowledge is outside of m+ area, it can and should be acquired well before attempting any sort of organized content.
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Partly, but not exactly.
There are Two. Separate. Issues. here. Two.
âIf you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.â
- Knowing yourself - how to move, your class, your cooldowns
- Knowing the Enemy - which is in this case the specifics of the dungeon, which is what Papirosa is talking about here.
Practicing your class is important, but itâs a separate point.
Knowing which casts need to be interrupted, knowing which mobs are going to cast them and being targeted on them, is NOT âcommon senseâ. It is very specific knowledge that people have to learn for this specific dungeon. What paths people take to avoid or gather trash for percentage is also not âcommon senseâ; it is a specific technique worked out and perfected by many players over time.
A facility to learn the dungeons without rush would be a good thing. Is it worth doing? I canât judge the cost, or the potential take-up. But many people would find it useful.
My credibility can be seen in my raider io profile. Feel free to show yours.
I included reading dungeon journal/external guide into requirements
It doesnât needed all way up to at least +10. Such knowledge for player attempting soemthing like +8 is just overskill
Yes, cause there is an issue, which this folk wonât raise here, cause they ll get eated up by some grusome attitude of local âpro playersâ.
What Preach expands in great detail is that a large playerbase locked from pushing above bare minimum content.
It can be described like they:
canât get invited to do content.
canât rush on the fast pace with others m dungeons.
no means to learn it, before doing demanding and resposible role in m dungeons.
overgear by wellfare gear dont help that much.
only see full content, when new expansion comes.
And as customers who seek fun they inevitably get frustrated and leave.
They could be given a chance to like this game, and not by wellfare gear, but by some way of improving, practicing and eventually proving themselfs to get that pass, to experience the game.
That person most likely ment your human interaction and empaty credibility. There is no RIO for that. It manifests itself radicaly through posts.
What sort of human interaction and empathy you expect from me? I am your new player basically. Didnt do m+ in legion at all, In first bfa season i had timed +10 underrot and depleted +10 manor, rest dungeon at +8+9 then i completely lost interest doing m+, i stopped doing even weekly runs.
In season 2 i took m+ more seriously and have better progress by now though. I timed my first +10 in s2 being below 390, i started to think about something more than 1 pack at time without skips at around 1100 score, it wasnât needed before that. Everything i wrote in this thread is based on my personal experience with being new player tanking on non meta tank. So i can repeat again, if player knows how to move out of poop, can find interrupt button and know rotation and can spend few minutes reading about dungeon, that player is ready for m+ even in tank spot. IF player is uncapable of that, then that player shouldnât even think about m+, but start to learn very basics of wow gameplay first. M+ or any other orginized content is not right place for that kind of lessons.
And that is exactly the point of this thread to brainstorm a way how to give this person an in-game way to learn these basics on his/her own pace.
Cause most new players atm learn to avoid m dungeons instead.
Got a real life example: used to know in game a great lad, who played warrior and was always there for his guild, but he couldnt get to learn all mechanics on the âfast runâ mode and they stopped inviting him, only did it in their closed group, which ultimately led him to leave and play chill pew pew games.
âI know a guyâ doesnt win argument, and thats not my point. But pls, do consider different type of players, cause they are bedrock of big MMOs. Not 1% who can overcome through anything, but a large pool of people who want to have some fun and might be ready to learn it in game on their own pace.
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What you desribe is not problem of the guild or community, its entirely your warrior friend issue, he/she simply was trying to be somewhere he/she does not belong. If you are new to something you start from scratch, not trying to join people way above your skill level. There is nothing wrong with people refusing to play with relatively worse player than them.
Here is how you start your m+ journey, you join something like +4+5 in your welfare 390 gear and make your way up either joining pugs or pushing own key. Without asking someone to carry, mentor or help you. Everyone can do that. Hell, i did exactly that on my affliction 380 ilvl at that time warlock with 0 score on the week with heroic BOD item for completing 4 mythics. I got my keystone in pugged atal +5 and pushed it all up to +10 KR, which unfortunately wasnt finished at all.
It requires some work though, crying on forum about bad elitists and addon is far less time consuming. There are only 2 things that block people from m+, those are laziness and stupidity, both canât be solved by any ingame tutorial imaginable, becauce they are not related to game in the first place.
I havent got any friends left in this game, but its not a struggle to get into a mythic 0. I havent tried to get into any mythic + , but i can imagine its not so easy since everyone is so elitist and expect so much
https://raider.io/characters/eu/draenor/Deichi
Are you implying score = credibility? If so, am I doing ok?
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Cause you overgear it, pal.
The dev team prefers to do it instead of giving you an in game way to be prepared.
You are expected to read all dungeon tactics and your class/other classes utility, and immediately after rush trough a m+2 with a veteran player group, aiming at +3 timer without knowing what to expect in real time fast run.
itâs like applying for a job right after Uni. Without any internship. What can go wrong?
If people refuse to read up about a dungeon or boss (Dungeon Guide in game tells you everything you need to know already - thats how i got ready for M0s⌠combine that with DBM for reminders and bingo?) they wonât do any practise scenario or whatever you suggest either to learn.
On my tank (by now close to 400ilvl) I sometimes join the lower keys or M0s, those groups who have been stuck looking for a tank and/or healer for like 20 minutes just to help them out.
And what you face in those groups is horrendous. They donât talk, donât listen, have no clue about tactics and their individual performance is ofc not that great. You try to give pointers how to improve or how to handle a specific fight: no response.
It is very simple, you can make 10.000 tools to help players - they still have to be willing to be helped and to improve to make it useful. Some just want to loot without a care in the world.
Some call it elitist, but not everyone can be helped in getting ready for M+s. They still have to want to, and that is if you ask me the biggest issue.
Now the ânot being able to get in groupsâ point is another problem. Havenât faced many issues getting into groups on my mage (paladin and warrior neither ofc, since theyâre tanks ^^) really. Worst case I start one myself just for the heck of it. Fills up rather quickly honestly. Overall it doesnât take much more than 5 to 10 mins to find a group.
You claimed i have no credibility talking about timed 10+ m+, iâve proven you wrong. No hard feelings right?
Again⌠Your problem is you are trying to place so called new to m+ people to where they do not belong. Gear matters little, itâs only part of player, other part is experience. So if you have zero experience you start where no experience in m+ required and that is low level keys like +4, from there you move upwards getting experience which is essential and at some point even more important than gear.
Also why bring veteran team doing +2s? Veteran teams really doing +2s? Really?
THat is exactly what new m+ player doing applying for something above +4. That is exactly why things go wrong for both player and his/her unfortunate teammates. Things go good only when everyone in place where they belong. best you can do for new players is to help them to start from where they belong, not to teach them to be on pair with veteran players right away, that is as productive as teaching pig to sing.
To be fair, the thread title is maybe misleading, though the post is clear enough.
I donât think Papirosa is suggesting
- New Player does Tutorial for Shrine of the Storm
- New Player joins Shrine + 10 group
The suggestion is that the Tutorial dungeons would be stepping stones to M0, and maybe ramping up with the player as they progress.
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You havenât at all. You made the assertion that people can just pull pack by pack and time it. Whatâs you doing whatever got to do with proving that?
No hard feelings at all but come back when you have something to add other than â3 buttons lawlâ and the Yinke guide to timing a 10.