[Hero Talents fantasy FAIL] Dark Ranger and Sentinel need to be completely removed (and converted to class skins)

Classes Hunter
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Hi :wave:

I’ll start with saying that I actually personally like the Sentinel fantasy, similarly as you might like Dark Ranger, but that doesn’t change anything about the title or content of this post, which is about broader perspective and long-term health of Hunter fantasy. While this suggestion is unlikely to happen, it’s still worth the try because of the long-term impact.

TLDR:

  • ALL other Hero Talents emphasize/extend the established class/spec themes (i.e. more fire to fire, more light to light) → there’s no alteration of existing fantasies
  • ONLY hunter Hero Talents ignore existing class/spec themes (shots/traps/explosives/…) and enforce new altering themes (i.e. shadow and lunar on top of MM/BM/SV) (sure, these themes exist in lore, but they have nothing to do with our characters and their in-game specs)
  • no “re-design” can fix this, Dark Ranger and Sentinel have to be completely replaced with something else ASAP, especially since this is not a short-term borrowed power system
  • skip to my proposal #1 and #2 below

I understand the original idea for Hero Talents taking inspiration in some existing characters, but this hasn’t worked out well in practice. Because the selected “Hero fantasies” don’t fit the established “spec fantasies”. And while a few Hero Talent trees are based on such a character inspiration (Sentinel/Dark Ranger/Sunfury), majority of them ended-up as a general extension of the established class/spec fantasies. And those are the winners.

Dark Ranger and Sentinel are cheap and lazy choices, that just tried to superficially mimic some existing hero characters, but the idea did not reach beyond the surface. They don’t fit our in-game versions of Hunters (i.e. in-game specs) at all. While they would be great options for cosmetics (“class skins”), they are terrible choices for Hero Talents, that are unavoidable.

What all of the Hero Talents do is that they stay within the boundaries of their class theme, they double-down on a certain aspect of the class/spec, and they sometimes offer a bit of “theme hybridity” across the specs (e.g. Frostfire for Fire/Frost, Sunfury for Arcane, …). Simply said, Mages get more fire/frost/arcane, Paladins get more light, Shamans get more lightning and so on. Brilliant. In other words, no Fel Druids, Unholy Paladins or Holy Demon Hunters as Hero Talents.

Now, what we have for our Hunters? More cool shots, exotic pets, smart traps, devastating explosives or anything else out of the multitude of in-game Hunter themes?
NO. We have Shadow Hunters and Lunar Hunters. Completely new themes for Hunters (“new” with respect to the three in-game specs), infusing new cosmic forces into our existing grounded specs.
Themes that are alienating or unacceptable to many players.
Themes that make no sense for many races such as Orcs or Dwarves.
Themes that completely remove the grounded nature-based Hunter option from the game, because we just have to pick one (esp. as MM).

The only Hero Talents theme that make sense is Packleader, which has the potential to double down on Beastmastery theme as its “main” spec, while (just for example!) returning the stolen pet fantasy to MM as its “alternate” spec. We now need similarly approached Hero Talent trees for Marksmanship and Survival as their “main” specs.

[Proposal #1] What I would like to see at the next occassion:

  • completely remove Dark Ranger and Sentinel Hero Talents
  • introduce Dark Ranger and Sentinel as cosmetics / “class skins” / ability glyphs for players that are interested, while also giving an option to avoid these themes completely
  • introduce 2-3 Hero Talents trees (Packleader could stay) that respect the boundaries of the established Hunter fantasies and emphasize some of the existing themes coming from their “main” spec (ranged shots / pets / glaives, traps, explosives, melee attacks), maybe provide a bit of hybridity to their “alternate” spec

I chose to play hunter because of nature and shots/pets/traps/explosives (i.e. MM/BM/Surv). Why my MM hunter now HAS TO become either Dark or Lunar? No other class is suffering from this. It’s just fundamentally wrong.

At the very least, I am sad that many Hunters will now have to be cosmic-force users, shining blue or purple in all directions.

Blizzard, introduce whatever new classes/specs you want, that would be “opt-in”, but here you’re messing with the identity of the existing ones, and especially with the identity of our already existing characters! That’s immersion breaker. Stop it.

[Proposal #2] A completely separate note on what Hero Talents could have been as a “class-skin” system instead (untying power from aesthetics, avoiding the balancing issues):

  • Hero Talent trees are cosmetic only
  • as usual in a new expansion, each spec gets a single set of 10 “standard” new talents → new gameplay for each spec, no balancing/viability issues coming from multiple Hero Talent trees per spec, no issues with forced fantasies (because of the tree imbalance)
  • while adventuring, you earn “cosmetic points”, that you place into the Hero Talent tree and gradually unlock new visuals for standard abilities (within the selected Hero Talent fantasy)

If anyone find this (or the TLDR) worth reposting to the US forums, I’d be eternally grateful :pray:

:bow_and_arrow:

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The main handicap of Dark Ranger is dependance on Black Arrow. It will be clunky in PvP/BG content since these contents are fast-paced. Your target will die in few seconds after you cast it to your target so you can’t benefit from it at all. Sentinel is no different, you need to collect some stacks. In short, things are not very promising.

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Not gonna happen and I’m happy for it. I have been waiting for the dark ranger subclass for years.

What they need to work on is on reworking how they look and work. They are boring and the aesthic is one of the poorest of all the hero talents. Lacking a lot of fantasy.

As you said. If you are for nature and animal hugging, pack leader is the way to go. And still that one need far more love after we compare it with the hero spects from other clases.

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I personally love Dark Ranger and Sentinel themes - and have especially been waiting for Dark Rangers’ appearance to make it to the game in some form playable (was hoping they would become a class).
However, objectively-speaking, I do completely agree with how of all classes and their introduction of hero talents that it’s Hunters’ hero talents that diverge heavily from its original theme. Thus, this creates a love-it-or-hate-it dynamic based on a Hunter players’ taste towards Dark Rangers and Sentinels - especially for MM Hunters.
As an MM, if you love Dark Rangers and/or Sentinels - great, then you’ll embrace (at least one of) these hero talent trees.
You love neither, perhaps because you embraced Hunter for for their original theme (nature, pets, shots, traps, explosives, etc.) then this is inflexible and becomes forced choice for those feeling this way and plays MM.
With regards to Pack Leader, I agree that this fits in with Hunters’ concept. Assuming that a player is playing a Hunter to appreciate it’s inherent nature-themed-conceptualisation, even if a player may not be completely fulfilled by the way Pack Leader plays (for a plethora of whatever reasons); I could argue that it may least likely be the fantasy/thematics/aethestics that let them down. But if it is, I would imagine it is because there is a lack of that fantasy going on in its current iteration and not the fantasy itself - a popular opinion shared amongst all three hero trees and not just Pack Leaders.

I couldn’t say the same for Dark Ranger and Sentinel. Especially Dark Ranger… I mean, just imagine a Dark Ranger using Aspect of the Turtle/Cheetah… Or Mending a pet… Or just even using an Arcane Shot… I must note that the Hunter class toolkit/abilities are easier to visualise for a Sentinel, as the inspiration for this tree is most likely derived from Night Elven Archers which by canonical lore do not stray from Hunters’ identity. But… Just imagine a Sentinel using Wailing Arrow since it’s on the MM spec tree, and not exclusive to Dark Ranger… It is strange.

So I think the removal of Dark Ranger (though I love them so much) would be most appropriate and to be replaced with the identity of something that’s not-dark to suit the ideation of Hunters more.

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There’s so much to be said (and improved) with regards to the implementation/gameplay of the Hero Talents, but this post is about preserving Hunter fantasy. So you might be right, but no re-design or tuning can ever fix the core fantasy issue I am describing here.

I get you wanting to play a Dark Ranger, but I am always sad to read these takes, just caring about yourself. You’re basically saying: “It might be all wrong (i.e. not sticking to Hunter fantasy), but these very Hero Talents (by coincidence) fit my personal taste, so I don’t care (for others)”.
Your answer wouldn’t be the same if you got a different set of Hero Talent options that would still not preserve the Hunter fantasy and suddenly would also not fit your taste.

I am a MM Hunter. That’s my main, that’s what I chose to play years ago, that’s the fantasy I selected. So I cannot pick a Packleader. Now I have to be either lunar or shadow. I cannot be a nature-oriented Hunter anymore as MM.
And as I proposed, Dark Ranger should stay, but as a class skin (“visuals”), not Hero Talents (it’s not enough to make a “subclass” anyway).

Thank you for the balanced perspective. The only way out of this is that the Hero Talents must work with the original Hunter fantasies, so that a player that originally picked a Hunter for playing BM/MM/Surv can identify with the new extensions from Hero Talents.

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Just as you believe your point of view is the only valid one. In Spanish, we have a saying about pointing out the speck in someone else’s eye and not seeing the beam in your own.

The Dark Ranger has been a sought-after subclass of the Hunter for years. If you use the search engine, it won’t be hard to find a thousand posts on the topic. Practically, it has always been something that many Hunters have wanted.

Creating a class from scratch that’s practically the same as the Hunter but changing the names and 2 skills didn’t make sense, putting it in as a hero class, of course.

If you were to tell me that the Dark Ranger doesn’t make much sense for the BM, I would agree. I think Sentinel should be shared with the BM, and Dark Ranger with the SV.

That said, we are not going to agree. And your rant has no traction. Dark Ranger is here to stay; you can keep asking for it to be removed, and you can convince yourself that you are right, but it’s a path you will walk practically alone, only to end up hitting a wall.

Some battles are not worth fighting. Others, like asking for an improvement of how the Hero talents looks and works, yes.

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If at last the visuals from Dark ranger are somehow appieling but its barley noticable at all
If you face a Hunter BM you cannot tell if you face a packleader or Dark ranger until you track your debuffs and look for black arrow symbol

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Don’t worry, you’ll be able to instantly identify them by their blood elf/void elf race and hooded red eyes portrait.

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I feel like Dark Rangers could be implemented as a class of it’s own.
Under what premise are we judging Dark Rangers as “the same” as a Hunter to an extent that they’re not enough to be categorically different?

With enough imagination, creativity and innovation (and revenue that Blizz makes) you can literally create a class out of anything. Prior to the release of Monks and Evokers, if you had asked me what abilities/spells you would ascribe to these classes I would have little clue (due to the lack of comparative lore around them) - yet it was doable by Blizz.
Death Knights (Arthas) and Demon Hunters (Illidan) would be considerably easier to visualise because they have history and depth of lore in the Warcraft universe to provide a rich background by which the imagery of what it means to be a DK or DH could mean and be like in the form of a playable class. Dark Rangers (Sylvanas) in this regard is no different - they too have existed since the time of early infancy in the Warcraft universe/lore.
So to then reduce “Dark Rangers as the same as Hunters with dark arrows”, I would argue, as an over-simplification. By that logic, Paladins are the same as DKs just with dark/black animations - and so concludes to give Paladins a DK spec/hero talent tree…

Dark Rangers themes specialise in necromatic/dark magic, raising dead, mind/domination magic, life siphon, incorporeal banshee/apparition forms, focusing on curses/DoTs/debuffs through a barrage of shadow-tipped arrows and daggers, excellence in mobility and escape, wielding of ranged and light-melee weaponry, etc.
These themes couldn’t be more disparate from Hunters. The only similarity is the key-word “ranged weaponry” and so assume them be Hunter-like.
These themes more closely resemble DK and Aff Warlock - but somehow to a much lesser extent people compare the Dark Ranger to these classes/specs.
In theory and on paper the description of class/spec themes are bound to sound like there’s a lot of overlap. If you were to describe in words a DK and Warlock; DH and Rogue; Warrior and Rogue etc. you’ll find yourself overlapping themes in some form; The Warlock is basically DK, but just melee… The Paladin is just a Warrior + Priest or a Holy DK… The DH is just a Warlock + Rogue…
But since these classes have been brought to life as a playable class, with a bit of imagination, design and craft developing them we can see actually they can each be quite different.

So because I see Hunters and Dark Rangers as separate this is where I feel the addition of them as hero talents for Hunters doesn’t seem to sit quite well with me. Especially when a sub-group of people have requested it for years, coupled with the fact that Dark Rangers have all this history and lore around them for Blizz to rise to the opportunity for the design, also that it just doesn’t quite sit well as a Hunter as voiced by some members of the community. It seems that by giving one sub-community of Hunters what they want, they offend the others within it. Then why not just make them a separate class instead of a set of underwhelming hero talents; a whole fantasy spanning from W3 - Frozen Throne in 2003; reduced to 11 nodes of hero talents. By doing this, they’ll likely do Dark Rangers’ fantasy justice, and Hunters get to embrace their own original theme.

This is akin to Paladins receiving DK as a set of hero talents - it won’t do the DK fantasy justice because the base class theme of Paladin is light/holy themed, and the fact that we know (now) there’s much more to DKs than just some measly 11 nodes worth of fantasy.
Or Warlocks receiving DH as a set of hero talents (as historically Warlocks had Metamorphosis as a talent in Demonology tree) - it won’t do the DH fantasy justice because the base class theme of Warlock is spellcasting/ranged themed, and that DHs are so much more than 11 nodes.
Again, Hunters receiving Dark rangers as hero talents feels forced from the principles outlined above.

Blizz’s efforts in an attempt to ‘shove’ Dark Rangers along with Hunters: with Black Arrow (and then Wailing Arrow in MM tree later on) being added to Hunters’ Survival tree, with the first onset back in WotLK and then repetitively making a dis/appearance and re-appearance, it seems they don’t quite know where to fit this Dark Ranger theme within existing Hunter themes - maybe because it isn’t quite thematically correct?
And now this addition of Dark Rangers as a hero talent for Hunters is, again, creating this feeling of mis-match between identities that a lot of Hunters have voiced. And, I impartially agree, though I absolutely love the concept of Dark Rangers and would absolutely welcome their addition, But above all, their addition should not feel forced and needs to make sense.

Hero Talent Backlash, Dark Rangers and Setting the Record Straight - Warcraft Weekly (youtube.com) at the 4:00min mark.

This is purely for discussion-sake, we all realise that Darks Rangers will be a hero spec for Hunters. Lol :rofl:

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Calling others’ set of evidence / objective facts a “point of view” is a very cheap attempt to win a discussion, when there’s is no counter-argument.

“Point of view” would be if I was telling you that Dark Ranger should be removed just because I personally hate it, but I am absolutely not doing that.
“Point of view” is when you’re telling me that you’re personally happy for Dark Ranger, because you’ve been waiting for it, and so it’s ok to stay.

Let me repeat the set of objective facts:

  • Hunter Hero Talents (Dark Ranger/Sentinel = dark/lunar) are a strong diversion from the established Hunter fantasy (i.e. BM/MM/Surv = nature)
  • this sudden alteration/replacement of Hunter fantasy significantly damages the Hunter players that coincidentally do not vibe with the new Hero Talent options
  • Hunter Hero Talents are basically the only ones that do this

Which is of those is not correct?

The “I just want to play a Dark Ranger” is not an understanding argument/answer to these. But it’s the only “answer” I have ever heard. No good arguments.
On the other hand, I believe that Dark Ranger / Sentinel as a “class-skin” (with character customization, transmogs and ability visuals) would give you what you want, while not damaging others. What’s wrong with that?

I’d hope that there’s also a saying in Spanish that says a benefit of one should not come at the expense of others.

The fact that some people coincidentally like some (newly introduced) aesthetic cannot be an excuse to trample and alter the Hunter fantasy that has been here for decades now, and that was logically a significant reason why people picked the class. It clearly defined the expectations from the Hunter class. It cannot be an excuse to destroy the feeling/immersion of other people and identity of their characters, existing for years.

By the way, to be clear, if all other Hero Talents would do this same kind of fantasy alteration, it would still be the same problem, but it would be “it is what it is” situation for everyone. But that’s absolutely not the reality. Basically only Hunter Hero Talents suffer from this, which makes it even more apparent problem, urgent to fix.

But you’re right. I am not expecting to win this in a world where “I personally want this, screw others” is considered an argument. Of course Blizzard won’t care.

Honestly, to all the people that just care themselves and for their chance to play Dark Ranger / Sentinel at the expense of other players and general Hunter fantasy, I can only wish that their choice is so poorly-performing, so that it never gets to play. Then they’ll realize how bad it is to be forced to play some strange non-nature fantasy, which might not fit their taste. Unfortunately, even after that, they’ll still only protect their own interests.

I was just trying to find a way for everyone to be able to play what they want, without damaging others :four_leaf_clover: I believe this is the approach we need, because there is so many more battles for Hunter players to fight, where Hunter community is polarized, and the only good way out of it is to be opening doors for all playstyles (Lone Wolf vs. summoned pet, Survival ranged vs. melee, …)

:bow_and_arrow:

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Tbh bm hunter has several issues where most the new talents either do nothing or don’t work as expected.

There’s a spreadsheet on the trueshot lodge discord. I hope they at least fix the issues, given we go live very soon and if this is how the current vision of the spec. It needs to be functional

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