High Elf Denial

Biologically, yes.
But not in terms of fantasy.

Why would that make them unhappy? Nothing about blood elves changes. They are still what they’ve always been.

Just like adding the Arathi people to the game didn’t change the playable humans that are already in the game. Just like the Kul Tiran humans didn’t change playable humans already in the game.

I find your argument extremely flawed.

Ech. Look at it this way: who has the right to claim to be the continuation of kingdom of Quel’Thalas that fell during the third war now? Blood Elves. In all but name, they are the High Elves (many of them are literally the same people that lived there before the war).

Now, if You call some secessionists High Elves instead, and give them proper racial treatment You create an impression that they, and not some “Blood Elves” are rightful heirs to the millennia long traditions of the kingdom of High Elves.

I don’t really know how to convey this better. By naming one group “High Elves” You effectively refuse to call the other that same name, thus creating an impression that Blood Elves severed their connection to High Elven heritage, while “High Elves” maintained it - while it’s actually the other way around.

Not sure what You mean. They inhabit the same land, speak the same language, use the same art style, worship sun and Sunwell just as they did before the war - there’s way more to Blood Elves being High Elves than just biology.

No, that’s looking for things that aren’t there.

Mechagnomes didn’t wreck gnome history or importance.
Mag’har orcs didn’t wreck orc history and importance.
Etc etc etc

You’re really grasping at straws here.

It’s just different people who went onto two different paths.
Just like they’ve already done numerous times.

If You really believe that introducing a race from literal alternative universe is

And is even remotely comparable to what I’m talking about, then I accept that I won’t ever be able to convince You of the merit of my argument.

Then we’ll have to agree to disagree.

And honestly, at the end of the day, I don’t care what they do.
I don’t even like elves in general.

It was just an idea I shared.

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But giving the Alliance the same race with a different name is precisely what people advocating for this seek.

We have established that the Alliance High Elves are biologically identical to Blood Elves.
We have established that the Alliance High Elves need the same Sunwell Blood Elves do (and so they are probably also Light Elves).

They are the same race with the exact same culture, up to and including the fact that they call their mages Magister and appointed Veressa Windrunner as the Ranger General of the Silver Covenant.

Advocates are attempting to use the word ‘High’ as the most load bearing adjective of all time in gaming to justify difference but it doesn’t really work.

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Well, they’ll just have to accept that isn’t going to happen. Void elves are already extremely close to that ask.

It’s like asking for alliance orcs or horde humans. Not new ones, but the exact same ones, just with a different label. It’s silly.

But it does enforce my earlier opinion statement: I think it was a mistake to have blood elves join the horde in the first place. :sweat_smile: Because the ‘high elf’ fantasy trope is a big and popular one. Blizzard could have anticipated that ‘turning high elves into fel junkies’ might not be a popular decision amongst people who love that trope and wanted to see high elves as part of ‘the more traditional fantasy races’ faction.

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I am convinced the only reason Metzen changed the name was rule of cool.

He had form on doing something because he felt it was cool. The question I like to ask is, would we even have this debate if they had left the name as High Elves and we were talking about the High Elves in the Horde?

I can actually imagine Lothremar declaring that with Silvermoon rebuilt and Dead Scar healed they can finally stop grieving and return to calling themselves High Elves again :smiley:

Yes, because you still had High Elves who were part of the Alliance in Vanilla WoW.

So when Blizzard introduced Blood Elves / High Elves for the Horde in The Burning Crusade, a common reaction was: “Cool but why aren’t they Alliance?”

And the answer to that is that Blizzard wanted an aesthetically pleasing race for the Horde to make the faction more popular and appealing to players who weren’t necessarily interested in savage monster races like Orcs or Trolls or Forsaken.

But in retrospect the Blood Elves / High Elves being part of the Horde does feel a bit shoehorned in and in terms of story it often feels illogical.

But yeah, Blizzard wanted to give the Horde a pretty race, so they gave them Blood Elves / High Elves even though they were previously otherwise associated with the Alliance and the Humans in particular.

And I think it’s true that a lot of it was because it was cool. They were called High Elves but if they were going to be part of the Horde it would be cooler if they had a different name and a story with a little more edge to it. So Blizzard took all the white collar worker appearance out of the High Elves, gave them some fel and made them a little bit bad with the whole Naaru thing and called them Blood Elves so they fit in better with the other bad guys in the Horde.

Again, in retrospect it’s very rule of cool by Blizzard and it does make you roll your eyes a bit at the creative process. But the obvious question back then when they were announced was why they weren’t going to join the Alliance – which is basically the same question that fuels the High Elf discussion today. Because it seems so puzzling. Why aren’t the pure and noble High Elves who are heavily associated with the Humans in story and appearance, on the same side?

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Hey, I’m actually curious: is there any credible source of this, or is it just a common belief?

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“I was there 3000 years ago…”

It’s always challenging when people ask for sources of information that’s 18 years old, but in this case it’s not too difficult to find.

The Behind the Scenes DVD for The Burning Crusade has a whole segment on Blood Elves that cover Blizzard’s development on them and it’s well-worth watching. Specifically the part you’re inquiring about would be this:
https://youtu.be/FiCFk5bXC0I?t=555

“You know they’re definitely more humanoid-looking. They don’t really have any dangly parts or holes in their faces or huge horns or anything. A lot of people who like the aesthetics and look of the Night Elves will definitely like the Blood Elves.”

Truer words have never been spoken.

There’s also an interview with Jeff Kaplan where he says the following:

https://youtu.be/41w3zsE77cg?t=42

“What’s exciting about the Blood Elves is that they’re kind of the first pretty race the Horde has gotten. A lot of the Horde characters are very monstrous which turn off a lot of players. A certain demographic only likes to play really attractive-looking characters. So the Blood Elves will bring a prettier face to the Horde.”

So yes, that was Blizzard’s sales pitch for the Blood Elves.
You’re a Horde player and you want to play a pretty race? Buy our new expansion!

…Which is why I don’t understand the absence of new playable High Elves in Midnight. Because at the end of the day there’s an audience for them. And if Blizzard wants to sell their expansion to excited players, then put the thing into the expansion that people desire to have.
Blizzard understood that with The Burning Crusade. It’s weird that they don’t seem to understand it with Midnight.

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There are NPC’s in Dornagal called “High Elf Magi”.

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No one is denying there are still High Elves around, but they’re a minor faction of Elves that deny the Legacy of the Blood Elves and refuse to give up on the past. It just wouldn’t make sense to add them as a playable race, when players on both sides already have access to them via Blood Elves or Void Elves.

After the destruction of Dalaran it’s also a lot harder to justify High Elves that aren’t affiliated with the Horde or are Mages. As they have now been cut off from their alternative source of magical energy. So now it’s Sunwell or Void.

What’s sense got to do with it?

Blizzard added Mag’har Orcs to the Horde even though they already had Orcs.
Blizzard added Mechagnomes to the Alliance even though they already had Gnomes.
Blizzard added Zandalari Trolls to the Horde even though they already had Trolls.
Blizzard added Kul Tirans to the Alliance even though they already had Humans.
Blizzard added Dark Iron Dwarves to the Alliance even though they already had Dwarves.
Blizzard added Earthen to the Alliance (and Horde) even though the Alliance already had Dwarves and Dark Iron Dwarves.

So what’s sense got to do with it?!

Blizzard always just invents new lore and story to support the introduction of whatever new race or place or being they want to put into the game. We see that with the Harandir in Midnight and we saw it with the Arathi in The War Within.
Blizzard just makes stuff up.
And they can absolutely do that with the High Elves as well. Don’t be silly thinking otherwise.
You imply they lack a source of magical energy? Easy. Just say that of the 7 vials that Illidan filled from the Well of Eternity – and which five are known to us – the remaining two have since been discovered and now form a source of magical energy for these High Elves and blah blah blah.
Blizzard can pull an infinite amount of rabbits out of their hat as far as the story is concerned, because Warcraft as a story medium hardly puts any creative constraints on itself. Blizzard can almost just make stuff up as they go along (something they arguably already do).

There’s no lore or story reason for why Blizzard can’t introduce High Elves to the Alliance in whatever kind of form and capacity they should want to. They have enough creative freedom to make that happen without needing to bend over backwards to find a workable solution. It’s really not hard to put anything into World of Warcraft with a story and lore background to support it. Blizzard shows that all the time.

It’s unlikely to be story and lore that prevents High Elves from happening as such hurdles can be solved with a few pen strokes in less than a few minutes. Rather, the development resources that go into making a new race, and the lack of production efficiency in making a new race from scratch for the sole purpose of being a playable race, is the challenge for a WoW team that already seems to struggle with too many tasks and too little time.

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I already liked Your response, but felt that’s not quite enough so please accept my thanks - I really appreciate Your answer and You for taking the time to look for it and write it all down :slight_smile:

“What’s exciting about the Blood Elves is that they’re kind of the first pretty race the Horde has gotten. A lot of the Horde characters are very monstrous which turn off a lot of players. A certain demographic only likes to play really attractive-looking characters. So the Blood Elves will bring a prettier face to the Horde.”

This is why Ion’s infamous response to the Q&A didn’t sit well with me. Because people in the Horde who wanted a “pretty race” should have been told “the Alliance is waiting for you”, because the Horde is supposed to be about noble savagery and doing what you can to survive, a foil to the “civilised” Alliance. The addition of the Blood Elves kind of destroyed that immersion.

To be fair, the TBC Blood Elves did have something that made them Horde-like; their mana addiction and their need to siphon magical beings to survive. But now, after the restoration of the Sunwell, they’re essentially Human-lite. Type in /silly as a Blood Elf you’ll get lines about how your character finds the other Horde cities very strange and unfamiliar.

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Yeah the Horde as a faction was very rooted in the question of identity. Are we monsters and beasts or are we better than that? That’s the core of the Horde campaign in Warcraft III and the glue that initially binds the Horde races together in WoW.

And to their credit, then Blizzard does find a similar identity question for the Blood Elves (they talk about it in the Behind the Scenes DVD). They’re addicted to magic, they’re succumbing to the fel, and they’re torturing a Naaru in their basement. So they had that identity hook that resonated with the other Horde races.

But then Blizzard just solves it by the end of The Burning Crusade. So now they’re just wholesome and good. Still remorseful as we saw in the Midnight cinematic, but also portrayed in a manner that naturally makes Alliance players ago:
“Why can’t we have those in our faction? They’d fit right in!”

There’s not much left of the monstrous Blood Elf identity. Nowadays they are just pretty humans with pointy ears, and obviously Alliance players are going to keep asking Blizzard why they can’t have pretty humans with pointy ears when next to knights in shining armor, that’s literally the gameplay fantasy of the Alliance.
And it goes back to that original intent by Blizzard to give the Horde the pretty race, so they got the one race that Alliance players always felt was the epitome fantasy for them.

Of course Alliance players will keep asking for that to the end of time or until Blizzard gives it to them.

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It does seems that right now if You want to play an edgy elf who’s willing to do anything it takes to reach their goal, Void Elf is the way to go.

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I actually liked the redemption arc of the Orcs in Warcraft 3 and even considered rolling Horde. The addition of the Blood Elves was also tempting.

Neither here nor there, but Garrosh, Sylvanas, and the Iron Horde ended up making arguments for the former. Warlords of Draenor had the unintentional implication that the Orcs didn’t need Mannoroth’s blood to get genocidal. Chalk it up to bad writing on Blizzard’s part, but it is what it is.

“Why can’t we have those in our faction? They’d fit right in!”

THANK YOU!

In almost every fantasy storyline, elves have always teamed up with humans and dwarves. Lord of the Rings. Warhammer Fantasy.

I suppose there are also stories where elves and humans are opposed, like Dragon Age and the Witcher. Except in the latter case, nobody is friends with each other because the world is really messed up. But even in those stories you don’t see them working together with orcs or trolls.

There is a counterargument that Blizzard is subverting expectations. That they don’t have “Tolkienesque Elves, but Warcraftian Elves”, but some tropes in fiction just make so much sense that its exclusion is badly felt by the fanbase.

Of course Alliance players will keep asking for that to the end of time or until Blizzard gives it to them.

And thus shall I go on asking for High Elves until my interest in the game has fully exhausted, or it finally happens. Whichever comes first

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