High keys, viable classes

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
1

I wasn’t sure where best to post this. I am looking for some advice on whether I should reroll permanently.

Basically my goal is to do very high keys, 27/28/29s, I find I’ve reached a point now where most people prefer to take a different class than Hunter, and I understand why, for example yesterday, whilst pugging the 2nd boss of Waycrest Manor (25), my healer just couldn’t keep up, I needed BOP or Pain Supression, or some type of external but we didn’t have any of that in our comp (2 druids, 1 DH, 1 War), I know that’s my bad for joining a team like that but at the same time it got me thinking.

Would my life be easier if I rerolled Mage, Warlock, Ret Paladin, or a class that is more viable in high keys due to high defensive or utility usage? Probably.

So I was wondering if there’s any one here that has gone through the same thing, and what’s their opinion

2

Why did you race change away from dwarf? (Your forum profile says dwarf, but your armoury says belf.) The tree boss in Waycrest aside, the dwarf racial is a huge boost to survivability for a hunter.

My hunter is currently around 3250 RIO with some 25s and a 26 timed and I know I could push higher. The reason we failed the ToTT 27 that we got from timing the 26 was because our CR died at critical times. I was doing fine staying alive. I did, however, switch some of my gear around so I was running 15% versa (with the versa phial) instead of my usual 0%. The impact on dps from running slightly higher versa is minimal and far smaller than the dps loss from dying.

I’ve been asked to switch to paladin for mythic raid (for group buff reasons, not because hunter is bad) so my paladin may overtake my hunter’s RIO as I push keys to practice my rotation under pressure. I wouldn’t say it’s so much a case of it being possible to stay alive in higher keys on the paladin as of it being easier to stay alive. You can make mistakes as paladin and get away with it at much higher level than you can as hunter.

As for mage and lock, there’s no getting away from the fact that they’re strong classes, but they still need to be played well. I’ve played my (demo) lock a bit, and it’s probably easier than hunter up to a point, but once you get past the point where just popping a defensive every time there’s damage isn’t enough (or you simply don’t always have one), you need to learn (and use) the less obvious survival tricks.

As for mage, if you haven’t played it (much) before, its most powerful defensive (on account of being super strong and on a short CD) is alter time, and it’s not intuitive to use. By the time you realise you’re taking damage, it’s too late, and you can make matters worse by hitting it then. You need to know all the dungeon mechanics well enough that you can anticipate when you’re going to take damage ahead of time, and hit alter time before the damage starts.

Ultimately, it’s about what you’re comfortable playing. Bear in mind that BM is very simple rotationally (one of the reasons I chose to play it in mythic raid) and it leaves most of your attention free to focus on what’s happening around you. Other classes might have more survivability, but if you’re having to give more attention to your dps rotation, you may find yourself using it badly.

1 Like
3

Yes I noticed the top hunters in Raider IO, are running tank necks, trinkets, and full vers. I might do that and maybe change back to dwarf again. It’s so ugly but seems mandatory.

Only issue is community perception, I sit in LFG staring at groups that literally say BL, yes BL but not you hunter XD, we mean an aug or fire mage. XD

4

Community perception is an issue for anything that isn’t part of the current meta, but you’re at a level where it’s difficult for anyone to pug. I have a friend who plays shaman healer and he doesn’t bother applying to other people’s keys now that he’s doing 26+ because he doesn’t get accepted. If he needs to pug, he lists his own key.

Even playing aug is no guarantee of getting into keys (so I’m told by aug friends who have played it since it first appeared). It’s less desirable for high keys than it was last season. I also think people who do high keys are aware that hunter’s BL is sub-optimal. We don’t want our BL pet out, we want our tenacity spirit beast, and on anything but an easy boss fight, I usually sacrifice a few seconds of dps to switch back to it as soon as the BL buff has dropped.

The best approach - as always - is to add people you’ve had good experiences playing with to your ‘friends’ list and try to make groups outside the group finder as often as possible. Even if you’re not on VC, playing with the same people makes high keys much easier because you learn people’s patterns of behaviour and you don’t end up overlapping kicks/ccs so often or using dps CDs in bad places because you don’t know what the tank is going to pull.

5

So now that you mention that boss il give you the perspective of a healer.

Let me guess, you went with a DPriest right? :slight_smile: Figures. If he could not keep you up its his L2P issue rather than yours.

If not, its a DDs issue. Because at some point, DDs have to learn to save CDs for important mechanics that only become relevant at 25 and above. The spike, and the add from last boss of EB are prime examples. Dont cleave them, FOCUS THEM. With CDs.

Either way, you should have survived that 25. However, on 26, 27 and 28, the importance of stacking vers becomes more important.

And then lets go with what class to play in high keys (27 and above). From a healer perspective, there is a MASSIVE difference between classes that stack vers, and classes that don’t stack vers.

And then lets address the elephant in the room. The reason why people take meta specs is because when you PuG you dont have the advantage of coms and all the cool stuff that comes with an organized group.

Because in those key levels, class does not matter. What matters is teamwork. That is what people don’t get. And that is why people will tell you to focus on finding buddies to play with at those levels.

SO. Lets just assume you did rerol ret for some reason. Well then, you will do 27s. But for 28s? NAH… wont get invited either. And you will be back to doing what you have been doing up to now: Roll your own keys.

1 Like
6

No, it was a druid. Based on the OP’s original post, it was DH tank, druid healer, and hunter, druid and warrior dps. (Possibly warrior tank and DH dps, but I’d bet on my original list.)

But, you know, if the druid dps was balance (most likely) they have to ramp on a new target before their dps is significant, and they can’t have a 3 minute CD for every spike. Feral would have more burst and a shorter main CD, but they still need time to apply bleeds before they can burst. Basically, the warrior (or DH) was having to free the spiked hunter almost solo.

That’s true, but as the OP said, the comp was a particularly bad one for that boss mechanic. Even an organised group on VC would have struggled with it.

7

I have a general issue with FOTM healers, especially in non-high end keys. Many of them rerolled.

Look at MW monk for example. In S2 they barely reached 1% representation and now all of a sudden its 20%? Where did all those people come from?

And don’t get me wrong. There are gifted people out there that can reroll and instantly know their new class in every detail. But its not the majority of people. Most reroll and learn it “along the way” which is a process that takes time.

And L2P in that boss as a druid… I mean it in a good sense. 25 is the level where every detail starts counting, and you have to know how druid works internally, and in conjunction to the other classes in very good detail.

So there is still some L2P to do there. That druid should have been able to look at the party he is with, and assign his externals/defensive accordingly for that boss from the beginning.

So? They nerfed the life of the spike. I see so many DDs busting out ALL their CDs on pull with BL. Which is not what should be done in that boss.

Not in 25 and above at least. In an ideal scenario, in coordinated groups you save CDs for the spike. So 1st warrior pops all his CDs and deletes the spike. Next spike its 1 of the other 2… and so on.

And even a dudu has CDs to burst things. He just used them on pull. Thats all.

Either way, its not something that is an issue in keys lower than ~25. So its not something 99% of the player base even considers. However, it does become an issue in those key levels.

For a 25? No. WM has a pretty generous timer and you can go with any comp. Just adapt the encounter to the comp, instead of the comp to the encounter. That becomes relevant in 28s and above.

8

The following advice is from someone that has NOT pushed that high, and generally consists of things I have heard from players that were pushing.

Having said that, if you want to play that high keys, highest priority is to get a group. It is more important than the spec you play (and especially depends on the comp).
Other than that, second priority is how good you are on the spec you play. You might find yourself rerolling, gearing a character, start pushing, just to find out that you do not enjoy the rotation or cannot perform well on that class.

Best thing you can do, is have 3-4 classes/specs each season that you know you can play at a high level, and then choose from those specs what is meta. Actually If you have a rogue and a mage or warlock, you are almost guaranteed that you will have ATLEAST a meta spec each season.

9

Irrelevant to my comment. You assumed it was a disc priest. I corrected you. That’s all. I’m not a healer and now qualified the standard of healing.

Absolutely. Which spike would you suggest he saves his 3 minute CD for? He’ll likely only get one use out of it, and will be reduced to tickling all the others.

I’m awed by your belief in your own awesomeness.

10

If I can power heal a spike, so should a druid with equal skill. And because, lets be honest here, druids and MW monks simply perform better than an RShaman, he should be able to with less skill. Simple as that.

And why would a druid not be able to on a 25? Maybe because he just picked up the class to get into keys easier. Which is the case with many healers. Especially DPriest, which is like the worst healer to pug with.

I play warrior. You have many small CDs. Recklessness is on a 45s cooldown. Use that one. Dont use it on pull. Also, Odins Fury with a ridiculously low CD. If you play arms, you can literally colossus smash each spike.

Avatar with its 1.5 min CD can be used on 1 spike, and then finish off the duration on boss. For example, 1st spike is a good one to start.

And if you want to be the uber pro, you track the CDs of your partners. So if DuDu uses his, you keep yours for the next spike and use double CD instead of 1 by 1.

??? Where is my “awesomeness” in this statement? Im literally saying that hunters are very viable in any dungeon, any reasonable comp (that has BL, CR, and those important things) to do 25s and above.

Except the uber, uber high end. Which is a different league on its own where meta and comp actually matter.

And as a healer, I am well aware that hunters are “squishy”. But so are Aug evokers, Dudus, and any class that does not stack Vers. Even DHs are squishy if they dont leech the boss (spikes of 3rd boss).

So as a healer, I know this, and I triage appropriately. For example: The tank does not need to have earth shield all the time (-9% DR and +100% extra healing). I can switch it to the squishy class during a pull for extra security.

Or when there are 2 party members at 50%, who do I heal first? The pala, or the hunter. Well the hunter of course. :slight_smile:

11

You’re not actually. You’re going off on wild tangents picking up on details that are utterly irrelevant to the OP’s question. I’m not sure how common this phrase is now, but I remember we used to call it ‘derailing the thread’.

In addition, you contradict yourself. It wasn’t that long ago that you were complaining about how much more difficult that boss is without the ‘god comp’ mage and how it should be changed so that it was equally difficult regardless of comp. You do make some interesting points from time to time, but more often you seem to be here just to pick fights.

Anyway, I’m out. I’m not going to derail the OP’s thread any further by continuing this.

12

OK fine. I derailed.

But, it is so much fun arguing with you. :frowning: Sad that I got you bored so fast.

Either way, hunter + mage, or pala + mage makes no difference.

Mage is still required there. Same as BL, same as CR.

Quick edit: Wanna do some keys together? It would be a real honor.

1 Like
13

To settle the argument it was:

Vengeance DH
Fury War
Balance Druid
BM Hunter (Me)
Resto Druid

I changed my setup, running a 15% vers now without flask. Going back to Dwarf as well.

Basically we try again, I want to get all 25s at least this season :smiley:

14

Im confident you will. And if you get sass from other people its their ignorance.

15

In short, your life would be easier if you rerolled.

I’d guess that mage / rogue / DH (possibly ret) would be the best candidates.

Can other classes do it (bla bla!)? Sure, but you’ll know that they are less likely to get picked so you end up spending more time in queues etc.

I’m not ‘high end’ by any means but I’m playing an MW right now. Why? I played one in BFA and was pretty decent at it. It’s not that hard to learn again since I know the basics and don’t sit there like a rabbit in headlights panicing over which button to press when things go wrong. I’m also learning along the way, but aren’t we all to an extent?

I think lots of healers dabble in the other specs so when one gets good they aren’t starting from zero.

16

I’m still smoking hopium with RShaman. Like the fluff of it too much.

Il just do my best, and wherever I get to, its where I got to. Nothing to be ashamed about.

But I am tempted to try out a MW monk for the melee aspect of it. But I have a feeling that im going to step on a lot of swirlies and frontals. Im not used to that stuff anymore.

Also, il ask one more time: Wanna play? :slight_smile:

17

if you have any alts that still need to time 24s on fortified this week, add me! ^^

Edit: Got your invite! I’ll also be online later!

18

Every wednesday I do 24s and 25s to get out of the “tyranical” mentality and into the “fortified” mentality.

I will be online at ~ 7pm today. Il add you then. :slight_smile:

And il go with my main. Doing 24s is good practice for higher keys.

I copied your ID and added you right now. My ID is Fran. But you should edit your post and delete your ID. You dont want any random dude adding you I guess right?

19

I don’t know why people are so going out of their way to try analyse why you died in a 25WM but I’m just going to answer your question straight and to the point:

Yes nobody invites hunters at the key levels you mentioned you aim to do. The class is too squishy and those keys become a survivability check long before they become a dps check.

Good luck!

20

Nah. Its possible.

You just have to have proper comp for it and a pre-made.

Either way, Blizz has been doing a fantastic job tuning specs and dungeons every week and always spicing up the meta constantly. Thats how you get proper “balance”.

But they have been slacking big time for the past 3 months thanks to their stupid event MDI.

And because of that, overall progress in keys > 25 has stalled. If you are not a meta spec, tough luck. If you are a meta spec, by now there are thousands of people with more IO than you. So tough luck.

Season is over for many of us. Including myself. Thanks to blizz slacking on their job and sailing the M+ scene. Its sad. S2 all over again.