I don’t mind on-proc cd resetting abilities as long as we lose the Combo Point system that is Holy Power.
Yeah, but I don’t want just a simple : Press that button when available, as it was back then. I really wish we’ll get synergies between spells. Not just a simple FCFS algorithm…
It was not like that for PvP though. There were decisions to be taken and choices to be made. If you were a good Ret, you wouldn’t press random buttons. You had to mind your Auras and Seals, watch your mana, buffs, know when to press Exorcism or instant FoL, know that Sacred Shield increased the critical chances of FoL and if your FoL was critical when you had Sacred Shield on, it would give you a HoT, know when to use your trinket and Freedom to get out of stuns. Know when to stun or Repentance. And know when to burst.
Nowadays, most Ret just stuns and burst. And they win because they either have good latency or better RNG.
Now in PvE, the synergy among the different abilities has never been strongly present as far as I can remember, at least not for Ret. Holy Power is just here to slow us down that’s all. Even decision wise it’s not that complicated with Holy Power.
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I’m only playing PvE, so won’t say anything about PvP.
Yes, in PvE, there was not that many synergies. Still, min maxing holy power is better than just pressing buttons in the same order, decision wise. Ret basically need a full revamp.
Besides, I wouldn’t like old jugement back, i’e : consummes buff from current seal. That feels meh.
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Actually, it’s quite the contrary. Holy Power makes us play in a predictable manner, it’s very linear compared to WotLK Ret. Before Cataclysm, we used to switch seals for single and multiple targets, we didn’t have to build to spend, we didn’t have a predetermined rotation, we could start the rotation the way we wanted, and the procs only made it even less linear with Art of War procs and T10 4-Pieces bonus proc.
Is this pre-WotLK? Because I only remember seeing this in Vanilla.
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Rotation assuming I’m using 4P T10 :
Judgement->Divine Storm->Crusader Strike->Hammer of Wrath->Consecration->Exorcism
That’s linear. I have no other word to describe this.
This is pre wrath. A bit of confusing here.
I can’t remember if there was any benefit of starting a fight with a Judgement. I mean it would apply the debuff of the type of judgement you were using but that’s it.
Now, why would you use Divine Storm after Judgement? Why not Crusader strike instead? And Hammer of Wrath was not available until the end of the fight so how do you have it before Exorcism?
It was not linear, your playstyle was linear.
My single target rotation in a start of a fight was Judgement(if there was distance to be closed, otherwise I would use it after my first Crusader Strike), else I would start with Crusader Strike(for T10 libram buff) to build up Strength Buff, Divine Storm(on proc, not a priority over Exorcism), Exorcism(only on procs, priority over Divine Storm), Consecration(filler)
Close to the end of the fight, I would incorporate Hammer of Wrath in my Rotation, Hammer of Wrath(was a priority over Divine storm but not over Exorcism in my rotation).
And my rotation change a little during the fights based on my buffs(trinket, libram, Wings)
So linear, I doubt it.
Now, with Holy Power, you build it with the generators you have, then you spend it. You need 3 Holy Power for a Templar’s Verdict. You use Judgement to boost your Holy Damage. That’s pretty linear to me.
Because of 2P T10. If I don’t have then crusader strike is better.
DS dealt more damages than exorcism.
That’s it? That’s your reason?
It was better to start with Crusader Strike because of the T10 Libram for the first stack of Strength and the chance of trinket to proc. Then follow up with either Exorcism and Judgement, depending on whether Art of War procs or else Divine Storm and Judgement, because then you would maximize your DPS and Mana Regen by having Judgement after the first two spells.
You are so wrong. I remember this clearly, Exorcism dealt more damage than Divine Storm, by a 1000+, and that’s uncritical and not even on undead or demon.
Your rotation was not good, you felt it was linear because you played with a linear rotation.
Please do not put holy power back in. I really enjoy the triage play style of the holy paladin and would not like to have my ability to respond to damage locked behind an arbitrary resource. I enjoy the complexity of my spec between managing procs, damage and cool downs just fine and I have really enjoyed the skill based systems of the current and last expansions with regard to the old aura of sacrifice master superseded by the micro efficiencies and decision making introduced by glimmer. In both cases the difference between a talented and talentless paladin was clear regardless of proc rng and particularly with glimmer, propper time management easilly allows you to hit 8-10 more glimmers compared with the average paladin. I worry the re introduction of holy power would cheepen these play styles and reduce our over all effectiveness as both a triage healer and the effectiveness of our planed healing. In addition I do not feel holy power would fit well with the dmg patterns of say a tol dagor 18. In this case I need to be able to just switch on my healing to keep people topped off else they risk being 1 shot. So in conclusion while yes spending a few gcds to set up an amazing heal timed well with boss damage can feel great. I would argue glimmer and formally sacrifice filled this nitch. And that now the holy power system is both outdated with respect to healing and no longer sensable with the Advent of mythic +. I understand the nostalgia of holy power but I would prefer they spent their time instead dealing with holys other major issues such as the discrepancy between the power of our auras and how dull our mastery is.
Absolutely not, it should be outright removed from all specialization,
Retribution would actually feel more in depth if it didn’t have Holy Power without any changes to anything rotation or spell wise.
Tv and Divine Storm could be given a 5 second shared CD, Word of Glory could literally remain the same but without any Holy Power and inquisition changed to Seal of Inquisition and nobody would even know the difference except the class feeling smoother.
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theres a problem with returning paladins Back to these ideas.
- Ret paladins Sucked and no one wanted them being the biggest part of this.
Support roles just arent needed in WoW, the game from the ground upwards are not built in ways that Supports are needed. theres only ONE Support thery want from DPS Classes, which is Combat Rezz, which due to nerfs wouldnt help the paladins Place in the meta either.
in Vanilla, Ret paladin was a Joke, today Ret paladins Still abit of a Joke but competitively Viable. which is a Huge leap from its old design, now do i think HP In its current iteration is the best the paladin could have? No… i think they could rework it into something much stronger.
HP should imho be Removed as a Combo feature and made a Mana Bar… we could then use our Melee abilities to generate Holy power which Fuels Spells. of course for this to happen we’d need Exocerism Back, abilities such as WOrd of GLory Baselined to run with this Feature and maybe some new spells to run with it.
Divine Storm could return to its old iteration of being a core AoE Ability. and maybe with the reintroduction of Divine Tempest on the attack to give it more flavor.
Hammer of Justice to go back to a flat Execute… and buff it up to be a meaningful one again.
we arent the only ones to of lost alot of our Supportive role either, Druids Lost alot when they converted them to Working with the different forms through talents and restrictive times, they could always flesh that back out to give Druids Off tanking ability and Healing ability + Mixing feral and balance back in together.
ofcourse though this would Require both classes to recieve Heavy DPS Nerfs otherwise we’d replace Pure DPS… so i guess it depends if we the playerbase are willing to be benched for every future raid to achieve our “Hybridized” Fantasys.
this is the problem with whats on paper and what actually happens, your talking about making a class redundent in Group/Raid Activity for the sake of upholding what a Paladin is to you, where the people who actually intend to play the class get benched from raids and have to sit here and Fight for the class to return to a More DPS Focused Standpoint.
our Healers Dont need Support, our tanks DOnt need Off tanks. these were removed by putting ALOT Of utility and support into the Classes filling those roles. what Tanks and Healers Need are Adiquate DPS to Do enough Damage to get through the content they’re currently in.
we were worthless in Raid enviroments by a large mile, and Was mainly used to fill a Healer/Tank Role and sadly we cant have both
we cant put out Large amounts of Support and Be high DPS… blizzard will never allow this for the sake of balance.
not really true, removing its burst windows to Freely Punch buttons at random with 0 Concequence would actually reduce its depth. Currently we have to ensure we use abilities correctly to prevent over capping, and keep track of what we have currently to make sure we dont turn…
also it’d mean we didnt have ANY Set up what so ever for burst windows… so its just a case of things dropping to the point where u hit em as they come off CD. the class would lose alot of Depth with its removal… if thats the only change ur wanting alone.
It doesnt need entirely replacing, the combo system just needs dropping from it… just make it a Mana bar… and Allow our Melee Attacks to Fuel the Holy power Bar into Concentrated Light Magic, this alone would free up the rotation alot in itself.
Isn’t it fun to see in a discussion where the OP asks for arguments most people just give an opinion not backed up by any reasoning.
Sure its an opinion and everyone is entitled to one, but it just does not add anything at all to the topic.
And no its not just you, its all around us. Probably half the posts on this forum are opinions witouth arguments. So please don’t take this as a personal attack.
As long as holy power is not re introduced to holy I have no issues with it. We already have so much to manage between our beacons. Cool downs and glimmers, procs, positioning and mastery. throwing another spanner into that mix is really going to make it difficult to correctly prepare your burst to line up with mechanics. I already have problems with mythic boss mechanics while I’m ramping and have had to set up so many weak auras and audio ques just so I don’t miss them while focusing on my glimmer windows. Holys current state is extremely overwhelming to play perfectly and I feel holy power would exacerbate this issue.
Let’s not make the mistake of focusing on ret here. But look at it through the lense of the class as a whole
No current raiders want hybrid tax. Those who want that are not even doing high end content, thus shouldn’t give their opinion about hybrid tax.
To be honest, I do high-end content. Both in pvp and pve.
Or at least i used to do high end content until patch 8.2, then i left retail for Classic (while playing on private servers in the meantime)
Holy Power was a nice addition to the game back in Cataclysm, when Blizz was trying to fix the balance problem. The classes (all of them) where completely reworked, with a mainly pvp oriented aim to finally balance wow.
It somehow worked, but it started the new concept of standardization that, patch after patch, ruined the game.
My opinion is this:
- Paladin is a SUPPORT class, and the best way to be a support is to be an healer. That’s true. However:
- Raids, even mythic progress raids, CAN make use of an hybrid, support DPS too. You want a proof? —> WOTLK
WOTLK is the perfect example of how a SUPPORT DPS like a ret paladin can be brought into an end-game raid.
Just check any priv wotlk server, you’ll see a ret paladin in every raid group due to having good dps (but not as high as a pure dps) paired with good support abilities and, most important, party effects that allowd the other dps to do more dmg, in order to compensate the lacking dps.
The rotation was fun too, both in PvE and PvP. You had a sort of “proc” which allowed you to do an instant Exorcism or FoL cast and many abilities to use both to help/protect others, to safe yourself OR to burst up your dmg.
In BfA Blizz reintorudeced GCD for many abilities, aiming to force players into actually making choices. It sucked.
WOTLK instead allowed players to make the real choices:
speaking of ret paladins, you had to chooce between doing dmg or dying. This is were the real pro players shone over the newbs —> Ret paladin had plentry of defensives spells, but each 1 activated a 2 m forbearance effect preventing you to use the others. Even better Avenging Wrath was inside this system.
This was so funny both in pve and pvp, you couldn’t just run over your enemy, pop Divine shield, and nuke him with allo your cds like now, you had to plan your moves. In PvE a good player able to avoid dmg was able to use AW and increase his dmg reaching the top-part of the dmg meter, while a retarded ret pala would have been forced into divine shield, reducing his dmg by 50% and preventing him to pop AW for 2 mins. in pvp a good player was able to knew when to pop cds and when to wait for em and use, instead, Divine Protection, or Hand of Protection, or even Divine Shield.
And we could use Divine storm as a baseline ability to HEAL party while dpsing.
Now, this could feel like “hay, wait a min! i do not want to be nerfed as hell and being forced to choose between divine shield of AW”, well let me say this: Try it. Classic is so good becouse you are forced into decisions like this. TBC and wotlk are the same. This is why the game felt so good, it was due to this decisions, those who make the real pro player, while today every1 can just reroll the most op class of the patch, read the icyveins guide and go for it as if he/she played the class for years. just by clicking the same rotation over and over again. OFC this change would require a major rework for all the classes, not only paladins. It would need a game revamp. But this is exactly what wow needs, and Classic showed it.
Today, with M+, a support class like paladins could be bis if designed in a wotlk (or even TBC) style, without being OP or a must-have ( today rouges/DH/monks and druids are the must have of every m+ party). DH, for example, are often brought to M+ not only for their dps, but for their support abilites. A paladin should always have plenty of support abilites to use, many more than a DH and surely not only a single BoP every 5 mins or a word of glory every 2 mins.
Also Wotlk is the perfect example of how a SUPPORT DPS class like a Ret paladin can perfectly work and challenge/beat even pure dps classes without being OP and, most important thing, WITHOUT HOLY POWER. Mana bar is all we need.
BUT today things have changed. Back in WOTLK classes were different and MANA MANAGING was a main issue for every1, not only healers. TODAY instead mana is an issue for healers only. So:
IF BLIZZARD WANTS TO MAKE THIS GAME GREAT AGAIN, GO BACK AND WATCH THE WOTLK EXPANSION. A COMPLETE rework of all classes (and not a simple re-adding of removed spells, but a complete rework like the cataclysm1) should be made, with reintrodution of mana/energy managing. In this case NO HOLY POWER FOR PALADIN
IF, instead, blizz should decide to just change the modern calasses by adding new abilities and simply making some changes, then HOLY POWER SHOULD REMAIN, becouse in the modern wow no DPS can live without a combo-point system.
Whater should blizz decide to do, i higly suggest em to go on a wotlk private server and watch hoe classes worked.
It was overall balanced (yes, not perfect, but much better than modern retail, much muche better), funny and forced player to make choices in a real funny way,
Just add some Cataclysm-like proc (and i mean procs able to make a spell not only instant cast, but also able to reset it out of CD).
P.S. WoTLK had also another quality, for ret paladin at least: During Legion we were reworked to be a pure melee class. This reworked was a huge nerf that took from us 1 of our most iconic spell: exorcism. Back in the day we had some ranged spell, but the system was designed to force us into melee hitting our enemies in order to improve their use. While still having our range spells. This is really important specially in pvp, were we are really slow and often enemies kite us all the time or just flee from us at low health and keep range- hitting us. A ranged, but castable, spell like Exorcism would work so well in those occasions, if paired with hammer of wrath. Ad it would be a really better RP feeling than a giant blade coming out from ground and hitting the enemy. Which is cool, but as much as Exorcism was (my opion)
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If I wanna play a healer then I should play holy Paladin. Which I’m not.
Wotlk didn’t have massive DPS check or overlaping mechanics if your raid group lacks of DPS. On a fight like Mekatorque, you wanted to avoid the 7th miscalculated teleport because it was overlaping with massive damages, so it was either brining a 5th healer or pumping enough damages to avoid that. So if we bring back hybrid tax, then we either have to roll holy or changing main DPS class, because we can’t even pump damages or good healing.
As I keep saying, if raid groups bring a class for its support spells, then they should only consider healing specs, which are the best for assisting. To this extent, I do think that retribution tree shouldn’t have existed during Vanilla.
During ICC, ret paladin was top 3 DPS. It was busted as hell, because it also healed a ton for a DPS.
Nah, FCFS. Just pressing the same orders of spells. It’s a basic algorithm that we follow. I don’t like that, it’s boring, there are no decision making.
Why not forebearance on movement CD too??? That’s kinda retarded design.
Forebearance on our only offensive CD ? That wouldn’t be fun.
Sometimes, the DPS check is so important that, well, some specs can’t even play above +20.
Well, from what I remember from what I played, mana was not a thing.
The thing is players want satisfying rotation, i.e : Not fapping while waiting mana back. Many people complain about the slow down in BFA rotations, so if mana is a thing, then we might starve of mana. Mana won’t be a thing again, if they remove holy power.
From what I read on warmane’s forum guides, icy-veins’ mirrors for Cata and mop, I would suggest MoP.
When I read a wrath guide, I’m always surprised that most of rotation for most spec consisted of pressing the same 3 or 4 buttons. Ret pally had 8, surely, but following an algorithm is no fun.
Sadly, it seems that they picked Wotlk instead of cata/mop/wod for furture classes design.
I agree, that’s the blunder of current ret paladin. We had ranged spells, because our mobility sucked. In legion, mobility was fine, but now, once again, is bad.
We only have downsights of being both a melee dps (i.e not having ranged spells) and a “mid range caster” (i.e no gap closer or good movement CD).
Hi, first of all i wanna thank you for answering my post. Confrontation is the best way to build up something usefull and viable for blizzard.
Yes, it is pretty clear that i’m i WOTLK fan, or better a pre- Cata fan. To let every1 reading this post understand me, i need to explain this: Cata/MoP/WoD/Legion had all fine class spells, rotations, systems ecc. BUT the problem is in the concept at the base. Every1 has his own preferences, but in the end what matters it’s the preference of the majority of people .
And the truth (probably) is that people say to want a game easy and clear with funny and shining rotations full of procs and big numbers, and few buttons. And that’s what all this expansions were about. But they failed. They failed because people who plays WOW are not playing on a mobile phone or XBOX, where you just click 4 buttons and that’s it. People playing wow spends years of their life on the game, and wants to feel rewarded for this. So they want something to make them fell better than those who just picked up a class and started playing it. This starts with the ability in using you spells. Not only the basic ones, but the situational too.
When Cata was released every1 was happy with the new class design, but soon player started to feel empty. Their classes were no long uniqe, their spells were so easy to use that every1 could reroll on another class, even starting it at lvl 90/100/110 without any problem and the veteran players started to no longer feel unique and rewarded for their hard work.
This is why Classic is so loved now, wouldn’t it be for the high unbalance now that wpvp is on, it would definitly destroy retail. People wants the real challenge in the long-time. They want funny classes wasy to play at the begin, if possible even OP, but after some time they start feeling the lack of the real challenge. And challenges is what makes games great. Pre-cata wow had challenge. After cata exp had no challenge. Ofc this is my opinion.
Now, going back to your post:
You’re right, and i think that too. but that’s not what i said in my post. I just said that the true support class is a pure healer, but i immidiatly stated that you can also be a valid support class as a dps.
That’s a problem related to overall game design. WotLK had no similiar mecanics because it had raids designed for a certain type of classes, just think on the Valithria boss (to win the fight you had to heal her). BfA has raid mecanics designed for BfA classes.
This means that raids mechanics are not something that could prevent a class rework, blizz will simply buil future raids in different ways. same for M+ mechanics. The only point is in the challenge they bring, that’s what matters.
Also burst dmg is important, but if a RET paladin, with his ability, can increase other party member dmg by (for example) 10%, this would be enough to compensate the lack of dps from the paladin himself.
Also modern raids are a mess, they are build for casters only. No mythic raid will ever bring more than 5/6 melees in progress, even if pure dps.
The difference here is what your spec can do. If a Holy paladin can increase dmg aswell than yes, you’re right. But if only a Ret can increase party members dmg, than your raid will bring some ret paladin other than holies. OFC this could be improved by giving ret pallies viable dps, so that even if you have more than enough ret paladins for the dmg buff, 1 extra ret paladin would still be ok.
That’s only a balance issue related to numbers/meccanics. Increasing the movement in the fights would have higly impacted their dmg. Also ret paladins could get the leggendary weapon in patch 3.3, and that added a ton of dmg. And they had a buff to Excorcism dmg (Exorcism could always crit vs undeads). Other raids during wotlk were fine in terms of dmg meter.
I do not want to be brute, but man, if you want the real choice you must go for pvp. PvE will ALWAYS be a basic rotation to follow with some procs to click when they activate. But, as i said, even in pve the real challenge/choice is when you actually get to choose between activate divine shield or Avenging Wrath.
Also any new type of iteration between spells (that you’re asking for) could still work well with a wotlk-based system. I do not want a WotLK 2.0, i want it a base-line to rebuild the game (in terms of class-meccanics/choices/systems).
It would be fun (in my opinion) to see more iteration between DIFFERENT CLASSES’s spells (like a paladin Judgment that sometime leaves a debuff who allows a warrior to use a specific unique ability).
Overall, if you want something different than a basicrotation + click proc system, you should try to do some PvP.
From your other post i think that you played WotLK back in the days. Try in again, then come back here and tell me what do you prefer. In the modern design it would suck, yeah. But as a bese-line for every class, then it would become a real challenge, a funny1. And trust me: In the long time challenge is what players wants (as i stated before).
WotLK had a nice mana system for ret paladins. It was something to watch out but during basic PvE fight they never runned out of mana. You are referring more to Vanilla and TBC. Ret paladin had also a talent that allowed em to not only reg 25% of mana with each judgment (every 10 secs) but it also allowed em to make every1 in their team to regain 1% of ther mana back every 5 sec for 30 secs.
You could have all the satisfaction you wanted, while doing nice dmg and helping other party/raid members. Without the fear of running out of mana. But if you started abusing of AoE (Consacration spell) to max out dps then yeah, you could run oom. this is fine for me. Use the right ability in the right moment, not just spamming everything available just to max out meters.
That’s true, not every class was perfect during wotlk, but the overall number of spell in the game was never as high as during WOTLK (maybe CATA added something for some class, but not totally sure). Main issue was that many classes had too much situational spells that could not be used in many PvE fight.
Still what i’m stating here is that Blizz should watch out WotLK for future RET PALADIN class design and for OVERALL class design (meaning the energy management, the choice you had to make, the type of modifiers in the game, ecc…). After Cata all the basic systems were symplified too much, and the constant loss of subscribers showed it.
The addition of some proc (reset cd, incr dmg or similiar) would, however, make the system better, that’s true. But still in synergy with this kind of general design.
I repeat that a synergy within different classes spells would however be a nice addition to the game, but it would require really really much work and a complete revamp of the game. Do not think we will see this in Shadowlands.
Still Holy Power is not needed.
We totally agree on this part. The anciest issue of ret paladins.
I’ll wait your reply.
Thank you and thanks to every1 reading this thread.
I really hope Blizz is reading too, we want Paladin to be a funny class again, as well as a nice RP class.
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According to the guys who presented the pruning for Warlords, Woltk cata and Mop have the same number of abilities, on average. I checked for retrib ladin, it was the case, we did have the same number of spells.
I do prefer “bring the player not the class” philosophy. This also lead to more complicated raid encouters. That’s why I’m doing Mythic content.
Classic in terms of PvE rotation sucks. Most of ranged specs have to press only one button as rotation. For melee, it goes up to 3. Raids are mechanicly easy. Imo, classic’s succes is linked to it’s reward design, not for it’s gameplay (which is really old and as I stated, relatively easy compared to today’s standard).
And of course post Wrath had challenge, not in outside world, but within the raids themselves.
If pre cata wow has challenge, then only outside of instances. In instances, modern wow is way harder, fortunately. People even cried for heroic dungeons on realease during cata. Sadly, blizzard listenened to them and nerfed them to the ground.
That’s what I meant. If they are going to change the design encouters to fit classes’ design, then the raids are going to be easier than now, because lowering DPS and HPS required is going to be necessary. Or it’s going to be a nightmare. Spending 300 pulls on a boss is fine for me, but I wouldn’t accept spending 600 pulls.
Imo, I don’t think so, only BFA is truly anti melee. Still, it’s managable, but yeah, it’s an absolute nightmare.
That’s why I fear Shadowlands. What do I bring more to the table as a ret pally over a holy pally?
I don’t like PvP anymore, as I spent waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyy to much time during MoP. And even then on private server during Warlords.
It seems that Blizzard has chosent Wotlk as a base for Shadowlands’ class design, from what I could understand. It was not openly said, but Holinka said that :
" We’re starting to see some issues"
Here from 26:50 to 27:20
Well, I’m leveling a ret pally on warmane x7 rate (I don’t have enough time, hehe)
Here is the thing. Most of players are not doing high end content, wheter it’s PvE or PvP. I do think that only around 5% of guilds are able to clean a full tier, and only about 10% are doing enough.
If I do have to estimate, mythic raiders only represent at most 5% of total playerbase. So I wouldn’t want this kind of design again to satisfy players that are not even doing high end content.
If Blizzard gives challenges to players, it’s going to be something like legion’s mage tower or more challenging open world. But please, not raids. It’s already challenging enough, raids are fine now.
That’s why I said mana was not a thing for ret pally in wrath, since consecration was really low on our priority list (was last or penultimate) so we didn’t really use this that much.
The number of spells was the same from wrath to MoP. Sure, some spells got replaced, some reworked, but from 57 we endend up to 57.
Situationnal spells are good for people like me who like cheesing PvE encounters. Yeah, I know, it’s bad, but I like that.
That’s going to be a mess. So what if in a roster, let’s say we’re 5 warlocks. So if shadow priest bring back again that bis debuff, but we don’t have any skilled SP, what should we do? We’re just fed.
I do prefer to bring a player, not the class. Some guilds are complaining that they can’t bench their DH DPS, only because they need one.
Still, if multiple classes/specs could bring the same buff/debuff, non stackable, then it could be great. But not unique class buff/debuff, it would be a nightmare to bring a player for it’s class…
Main difference, probably, between our opinions, is that i often refer more to PvP than PvE, while you refer more to PvE.
This means that if i say that i want more challenge when choosing if to do dmg or use my defensives, then i’m referring more to pvp. But your point is fine too. This would destroy the modern end-game raids, since as you said they are yet hard enough.
We’re again in the old challenge between PvP and PvE in WoW.
But where i do not agree is in the standardization of roles. Ret paladins can bring support spell that holy pallies can’t. It’s all in how the talent treee is builded up. Vanilla ret could bring nothing more than holies. TBC/WOTLK ret pallies instead had many unique utilities to bring in raid that holies had not.
Yeah, you’re 100% right. I totally agree with you.
That’s what i meant. I should have explained it better.
Thank you for your replies ^^
Still I remain on my conclusions:
- Ret pallies can be a SUPPORT dps while remaining a viable raid / pvp class,
- Ret pallies can bring unique usefull talents that prot/holies do not have, in both m+ and raid
- RET PALLIES DO NOT NEED HOLY POWER. it is ok if Blizz will decide to keep it, but i think that ret pallies could perfectly work without it.
P.S.
WotLK was actually build with this philosophy. I think that Blizz left it during Legion, endind with BFA where you could not progress without a priest in you raid during Zul encounter in Uldir raid.