House Guilds - is there a way?

First of all, many thanks to all who partook in the topic regarding self-inserts! It was civil, it was informative, it was great - and it’s still going on!

Another tough question:

One - can House Guilds, lore-wise, actually function within the WoWverse?

Two - if yes or “meh, I guess” - how could such RP be played out properly?


One - there’s nobility. Is Feudalism really a thing in WoW? As far as I’m aware, or as far as I can see/perceive, the peasants are free, the armies are professional (excluding a few town-militias here and there), and there are no lesser nobles paying tribute to the top echelon. How would a noble house actually function in these circumstances?

Two - this one, I’ll let you guys answer.

For sure. Kul Tiras is ruled by four prominent great houses that have their own militias within them; I don’t think the other kingdoms should be exempt. The issue was never that House guilds are inherently un-lorefriendly, but that their leaders tended to enjoy exaggerating their own important in the lore. Nobles are a canonical thing, even if the guilds they lead tend to breach canon.

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Fair point(s).

How would a non-lore House function though? I’ll focus on a single aspect; economics. Would it own land, or perhaps via lease with rights to work said land, from a higher noble/the King? What services would it seek to perform to those above and what kind of services would it seek to receive from those below?

Stormwind, at least, is not feudal - towns are ruled by mayors, magistrates, etc. It’s a monarchist regime with a full on bureaucracy - although the nobles take a part in the governing process as well (and are the ones who appointed Turalyon as regent, if I recall correctly). I think that’s the point where it falls flat in most cases: they’re not feudal lords but people play them as as much.

I don’t think it’s impossible to do something of the sorts while staying true to the lore. We know there’s nobles, we know they have a degree of influence, and we know that they’re rich - presumably they do stuff to make money and have a bunch of people working for them!

I’m not super well-versed in lore related to nobles in WoW, admittedly, but I definitely think there is a way that something of the sorts could be played in a completely lore-compliant way.

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Nobility is a vague notion in this universe, but at the very least we can assume it entails owning some land/property. Whilst nobles claiming they own “Castle Greyknob” somewhere off the coast of Gilneas can be a bit tiresome, it isn’t absurd to makeup an area of land within the existing zones where your character must live, whether it be a cottage in the woods or a castle on an island.

Azeroth is a planet, many times larger than portrayed in-game. There must be towns, forests, islands and whatnot outside its scope; and I don’t necessarily disagree with RPers inventing areas of their own within them. I wouldn’t enjoy someone making up an entire landmass, but a single castle or village? To me, it’s fine, so long as the player acknowledges that this authority is entirely made-up and can’t realistically be enforced anywhere.

It’s about respect, really. A noble saying they are Lord of Greyknob and must be bowed down to just isn’t very fun roleplay, and is why noble guilds often fail. But, when most of the human kingdoms are fallen (Lordaeron, Strom, Gilneas, Alterac), it makes sense that there are a lot of displaced nobles in the southern lands.

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I don’t remember where it was but it was pretty recently in the lore that Anduin (?) said something along the lines of “The nobles of Stormwind are agreeing” or so. I think it was related to Turalyon becoming the king for a bit?

Eh, whatever.

I believe the nobles in Warcraft are more akin to just having a title, rather than political power. Perhaps it just refers to someone being super rich. But money brings money and thus you got an explanation how they function. Just money.

We also see a few “nobles” in the Gilnean starting zone like the very famous Lord Godfrey and his two goons. He was obviously holding some influence. Perhaps the title of “noble” is just someone who is the leader of a few people AND has a lot of money. Since the more money and people you have serving you and are around you, the more powerful you get. Over all I think we can agree on “having money”.

Now in roleplay… All of that is completely irrelevant. I can create a TRP with the title “noble”, now what? I guess I am a noble on that character? Anyone can do that, which is the problem.

I would even say nobles in Warcraft over all hold about 0 politicial power, not even in Stormwind. Just their money is needed so they might get listened to slightly, if at all.

Noble houses could function very well when they stay among eachother. Let’s say one Noble house exists, they -should- only do roleplay with themself. Because you know what happens otherwise?

The exact same thing we have seen about 4923789391281727 times on AD. Somehow these individuals forget that they don’t hold actual power in character. Even in their guild they don’t hold any power really since any person can just leave. Situations where some noble demanded another guild (guards) to do something about someone or “MUH TITLE MEANS YOU HAVE TO DO X!!!” are just Karen moments and the exact opposite of what they should do.

Nobles want to hold social power, so people supporting them. But making just these people up and demanding stuff is really terrible and in some way even powergaming.

Noble houses are the reason why the “I HAVE 6000000 MEN BEHIND ME AND I COULD DESTROY THIS LAND”-meme from people in noble house guilds with 3 active members comes from.

Oh and also noble house guild tend to have a veeeeery bad history to them since people were doing the exact same thing I described. The stigma alone turns a lot of people away from the idea, no matter how great it might be.

A way to make it work would be having someone lead the guild who is a reasonable and down to earth individual.

I dunno, (Human) noble RPers, including their houses, are just in a kinda weird position. Atleast I don’t know how nobility in Warcrafts Humans really work

I think it was in Before the Storm(that book from Christie Golden), where Anduin basicly used a Lord as some sort of fancy butler to have him fetch some tea for peasant X, or whatever…

Also Stormwind Keep is 100% open to the public 100% of the time or something according to Exploring the Eastern Kingdoms book(not 100% sure on this claim)… So it would mean nobility in Warcraft even shares the Keep with peasants! Which if true, kinda destroys most noble RPers view on “Peasants should stay outside the keep” etc.

(basicly noble/house RPers in WoW think Azeroth = Westeros and act accordingly, while its clearly anything but Westeros)

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In my honest opinion, it may be cooler for someone to roleplay a house that is trying to reclaim lost land.
Which would make them more a ‘mercenary’ guild. But at the same time, would be better than just ‘giving’ themselves title from the get go.

More focus on building up their name.

Dead :skull: :skull: :skull:

“By the power of Greyknob… I HAVE THE POWAAAAAAHHH”

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The biggest problems with house guilds in my opinion tend to be two-fold.

One: They are often times vehement on adhering to the low-fantasy setting, almost to the point where it seems like the roleplayers involved are allergic to the concept of magic, and will come up with any number of excuses IC to not use it. Whether they like it or not, WoW is a high-fantasy setting, and so regardless of what these RPers want to RP as, they’re always going to be at odds with a large portion of the playerbase who acknowledge the fantasy elements of WoW.

Two: I cannot say this without being blunt. House guilds are often entirely self-serving. It’s essentially a roleplaying pyramid scheme where anything interesting happens to the guild’s GM (typically the lord/lady of the house) and the guilds founding members (typically relatives or spouses of the GM). Beyond that, your characters exist in the guild almost purely to give a sense of legitimacy to the IC leader’s influence, and your own plots are null and void because it’s all for the house.

I think the only way you could plausibly make house RP function is if everyone is a relative or marital partner, and everything subservient character is essentially an NPC.

Or perhaps that’s admittedly me projecting a bit because I couldn’t ever imagine anybody RPing as one of Obahar’s handmaidens or similar because of how one-note and boring the roleplay would be.

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This. You cannot possibly look at Gnomes and Gnomish technology and then say with a straight face that Low Fantasy really makes sense in WoW.

There’s plenty of space for ‘low’ elements in WoW. Human peasants aren’t going to have much access to the heights of Gnomish technology, for sure. There’s just this assumption that something being ~High Fantasy~ means that it’s somehow less serious and you cannot tell good stories through it because muh realism and all that.

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To keep it short and simple:

A house guild can mean MANY things: A prominent family, a clan, a tribe or anything remotely similar.
Try to connect with existing houses first, see if you can gain mutual rp out of it. Through this you can work on a background and most importantly a foundation on which to build your house as one of prominence. Nobody likes a Game of Thrones ripoff, try and be original in your ideas :slight_smile: If done well, in time you might build a name and be able to act in such a way.

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“The technology is not reliable/just game mechanics and most people on Azeroth wouldn’t use it,” they say, in order to justify their low fantasy medieval roleplay dream.

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The House of Nobles of Stormwind hold “considerable” power regarding internal matters in the Kingdom of Stormwind due to them being the owners of much land, businesses and industry within the kingdom and have the power to freely overrule the decisions of regionally elected rulers, such as mayors.

However, outside of Stormwind in the larger Alliance, their influence is minimal. So nobles do hold a lot of political power, if we judge by the House of Nobles, but only in their native kingdom and they do have families sworn to serve them for generations as shown by Tyrathan Khort’s family being sworn to lord Bolten Vanyst’s family.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Bolten_Vanyst
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Crime_and_Punishment_(Classic)
https://wow.gamepedia.com/What_Comes_Around...
https://web.archive.org/web/20190116180625/https:/twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/527559481345859584
https://web.archive.org/web/20190116180625/https:/twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/527559481345859584

After Varian’s proper restoration, they did lose some of their direct power over the kingdom as a result of him simply standing up to them. But whether or not that remains true for Anduin, well, your guess is as good as mine.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190116181257/https://twitter.com/DaveKosak/status/527559579035394050

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Looks at the GIANT GUNSHIPS that the Horde and Alliance use in every major conflict they have.

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i brush the several types of interdimensional spaceships under the rug along with divine mechs

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The issue with Bolten Vanyst (and everything connected to him) is that he´s complete outlier in how nobles of Stormwind are portrayed and I´d say it´s no coincidence that such character is only mentioned in a book by writer whose only (albeit amazing) contribution to WoW´s story was said book.
Which was also focused on trolls and Pandaria rather than Stormwind itself and no sign of nobles having their own armies or being part of military hierarchy has ever appeared since.

This quest also happened during Anduin´s regency that was the time when nobles had arguably the most power in history, something that got removed after Onyxia´s machinations got revealed and Varian came back.

Overall, I´d say Stormwind´s nobility being powerful for the same reason billionaires in our world are powerful is a good thing, allowing us to have setting that´s different from many pseudomedieval fantasy stories. Instead of Warden of teh Nerf, we have Joe who owns multiple shops in town that benefit from his ownership of mines, lumber mills and pastures in the kingdom that he can use to make products much cheaper than other shop owners who have to buy their raw materials.
That doesn´t mean they can´t have soldiers working for them and be your classic “we are not mercenaries, we are lord´s retinue, now please excuse us while we go kill gnolls in Westfall for money”, but you aren´t going to be a baron of some province who gets to claim right of prima nocta.

When it comes to guilds, they can obviously work, just like guild that runs a tavern and all it ever does is social RP in their inn every evening can work. However, coming up with unique theme for a house guild is really difficult and you can easily end up as 12th active guild on the server doing the exact same thing.

However, as others said here, these guilds tend to mostly be about ego of the GM who wants to be powerful and awesome, and then their events suck, being just something that´s meant to give members stuff to do every once in a while so they don´t leave.
This is something you have to overcome when making a house guild, to create a meaninfgul and engaging story on top of fun events, unless you want to end up with guild that might have numbers, but people keep changing all the time and they are in the guild mostly because they want to be able to kill a raid marker every once in a while in Elwynn/Redridge/Duskwood/Westfall.

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They can, however, they require a certain understanding. I believe the perception on “nobility” is inherently terrible and ruined by low-fantasy roleplayers who know very little about how historical nobility functioned and just want a pseudo-GoT/pseudo-Mount&Blade RP platform. This is only exaggerated by the sheer lack of capability to portray powerful/influential characters.

There’s two sides to “fixing the issue”; there’s the “systems side” and the “attitude side”.

For the technicalities

I’ve roleplayed on platfroms before where a “system” regulated nobility and defined their influence through a shared DM. Heck, for 8 months I was a DM & loremaster like this in a community.

With appropriate “management”, noble houses can actually turn from cringe to a driver in roleplay where they seek to “outdo” each other in RP, driven to seal alliances, recruit and push their activity to its limits.

This management is, however, mostly frowned upon in the WoW RP community; it is largely incompatible with the general Laissez-faire attitude people tend to have

It would require noble roleplayers to sit down, form a community, elect a “management” and put limits on their claims/power. EG; define that there may only ever be three dukes and five counts amongst them - a community of 15+ families - always those who in-character earn it & rise to it, then commit the roleplay and resources to maintain the title. In exchange, the community agrees to recognise each others’ powers and titles, thus lending some base validity to their roleplay. Especially so when it’s not a whole bunch of lords and ladies claiming rule over wast swaths of land, but a majority of barons and baronesses with but a tower and a village.

In short, bundle up as a community to eliminate “high title” claims and “big power roleplay”. Instead, form a system to permit only a small portion of nobles to have that and make the rest have weaker / less prominent titles.

For the attitude

A core issue with “noble house roleplay” is the misconception that World of Warcraft portrays a medieval world. It’s a pill to swallow for many NORFARPEE people, but all manners of organization in the factions, all quests, all warfare and all hints point towards an early-modern-ish setting, especially when it comes to politics.

I don’t think we ever had much trouble with Nightborne nobility, mostly because the frivolous medieval stuff simply isn’t possible / feasible in lore as a Nightborne. You can’t make wild claims, your title is restricted by default to be titular and most like to follow the in-lore Iltheux - Astavar guidance where the Highborne are hinted to own a great deal of wealth & property in Suramar.

Everyone is sort-of equal there, and instead of making up frivolous lands and holdings, I’ve mostly seen Nightborne families try to place their characters in the field of business and influence. More wealthy socialites from 19th century Paris than the gritty Normans of the NORF.

Unfortunately, I don’t believe this attitude can shift or change. The general audience of house roleplay tends to be low fantasy roleplayers, at least amongst humans.

In short, what to do to make “House RP” viable

Unionise as a community. Bundle a dozen or more house guilds together and agree on cross-recognition and co-operation OOCly in exchange for maintained standards and possibly a system to prevent /anyone/ from laying /any/ claim, relegating people to rise in the ranks through IC intrigue instead.

Naturally, the above works perfectly well with the previously mentioned “fallen noble reclaims land” archetype as well.

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Only blind people cannot see that Households are a thing.

Gilneas has / had noble houses, each with their holdings. To extents that some of said noble houses even had the power to attempt a rebellion and coup (Which also means, they had military forces of their own accord to do so!)

Kul’Tiras has their own houses - larger and smaller. House Stormsong for instance is large. They’ve a whole province. Then we’ve Lord Norrington (spelling may be wrong) with his manor and equestrian range and hunts. Which pratically is a subordinate of the House Proudmoore - the one ruling Tiragarde Sound. All of them have their territorial colours. All of the Kul Tiras major Households have a broad and wide military branch, whilst the smaller Norrington still sports servants, huntsmen that can fight, and a variety of personnel.

Lordaeron was feudal too. There is the renown House Barov, with their inheritance dispute, the long gone quest (should be there in Classic though!) to retrieve in Scholomance the ‘deeds of Southshore, Tarren Mill… etc’. House Barov too had its own colours - if anyone ever got the Orb to see the ghosts of their troops.

Stormwind has the House of Nobles, which despite many ignoring it, it’s a form of advisory council / parliament with an amount of power and influence (going by the relative wikies, lawmaking and juridicial power.). Last but not least example of their power happens in the situation of King Anduin abduction, where it is made clear the nobles back up and supported Turalyon position as regent. That happened at the dialogue between prominent NPCs at Lion’s Rest.

For what concerns roleplay - everyone is entitled to roleplay a Household, and there are numberous way to portray it. To me it means that as vassal of a crown, we’re part of military and can take part in military operations. It also means that if in times of lull or so there is fancy for a ‘search this ancient and lost relic’ I can do that as well.
It offers flexibility, without being necessarily anchored to 1 specific location forever.

Then there are sure an amount of ‘but this is not here or that is not there’. Like the OP mentioned paying taxes. Well … there are hardly mentions of taxes anywhere. WoW lacks an economical structure, so that point is redundant. Your lvl 5 wine will cost coppers, and your max level Hp & Mana restoring delicacy will cost gold coins simply because it’s for … max level economics.
We do not have mercenary companies all around the place either - but we do see them populating zones.
Tavern or shop as depicted in game have a full complement of NPC civilians; while in game each has some super-security personnel, and has oft within its rank a hobbist Archmage, a part time Lord Paladin, and a Witcher styled Monster Hunter as their bouncer, barman or clerk.

Ultimately players want to Roleplay something less static than NPCs, and try to give vibe of vitality to the world.
One may approve or not of another concept, and may subsequently steer clear of them.

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Stormwind as presented in game is a super centralised nation state with a near absolute monarchy, direct control of its military and in the provinces political power is vested in appointed positions like magistrates and not hereditary nobles. The nobility seem a lot more 18th century France or England where theyre powerful on the basis of owning stuff and having money rather than running their own private armies.

Other human kingdoms seem to be a little different, notably Kul Tiras seems a bit more feudal. If i were to speculate why this was id probably go with Stormwind having been completely destroyed and rebuilt in living memory allowing the monarch to consolidate power.

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