How does your character define honour?

Argent Dawn
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Honour in the Warcraft setting is often derided as something that is vague and meaningless. A character of a certain culture might do something because of honour, only for another character of the same culture to do the opposite because of honour. There are even some instances of characters contradicting their own codes of honour by claiming that other characters are dishonourable due to their deeds, despite the fact that they are responsible for very similar actions.

It doesn’t help that the definition of honour is rarely given for any particular race, culture or faction. We don’t even know what separates the honour of a human paladin from the honour of an orc warrior, let alone the deeper nuances of orcish honour and how different orcs might interpret it.

So, how do you handle the subject of honour?
If your character cares about honour, what sort of deeds do they consider honourable and what actions do they think of as dishonourable?
Are there any fundamental tenets that define their code of honour?
Do you consider your character’s code of honour representative of their culture at large, or is it meant to be a more personal code that is unique to them?

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This is a pretty interesting question, and since I’m a self-admitted altoholic who plays a variety of characters, it’s a great thought exercise for me, too.

I mainly play goblins or vulpera; the former aren’t exactly paragons of honor, goblins, traditionally, are shown to be opportunistic and don’t play too fair either; but, rarely, they’re shown to exhibit some respect for a deceased rival or friend / colleague (like in the short story ‘the Uninvited Guest’ where a deceased Trade Prince is honored quite lavishly during their funeral).
Vulpera likewise are scavenging, nomadic survivors; to them, I feel honor would be not taking advantage or kicking down on someone in a worse spot than themselves, like how they’d save trolls and sethrak from death in the desert.

There are races who fit a bit comfier in this dilemma at first glance (like humans or orcs, who are shown very frequently with honor attached as a narrative thing), but even they can be great fun exploring this, I think. My forsaken would consider herself honorable for not ripping out the jugular of someone instantly and hearing them out, but my Kul Tiran would consider inviting a guy to a drink after a tavern brawl honorable.
All in all, awesome opportunity for character analysis, this!

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An interesting topic.

Honor, first and foremost, a way through which society judges your integrity. In our world, it is usually a code of conduct that defines your obligations towards others, enemies and allies alike. It is typical of societies with a strong warrior/militaristic code (japenese samurai, knights, '800s) and in general involves being valorous, straightforward, and avoiding cruelty (mostly). If you meet all these traits, then you are respectable before others.

If you are honorable, you are a warrior worth following, worthy of society’s judgement and respect, capable of inspiring others and likely you will be treated with more respect by your enemies aswell (they may let you bury the dead on the battlefield, and so forth).

It is worth noting that honor in our culture, and in WoW aswell, is not a law, and is more similar to a socially-established custom, or obligations, what one “ought” to do in order to prove their integrity and worth before others, rather than what you must do.
There’s also some core tenants of honor that we can derive from World of Warcraft’s idea of honor, mostly a general overview.

  • Status. Just like in our world, even in WOW honor may have an emphasis on status: when Gan’arg was kidnapped by the Iron Horde, they tried to degrade him by turning him into a latrine cleaner, a concept usually associated with lower status than that of warriors. Warriors are meant to be proud of their profession, keep their head high and so forth - it is, indeed, a honorable profession; whereas peons are seen as less honorable: a warrior doing a peon’s work would likely be degraded, treated unfairly, and he’d have to claim his honor back.

  • Can’t be compromised. A code of honor has to be upheld even in dire circumstances. As per the iconic: *“honor, young heroes… no matter how dire the battle… never forsake it.”

  • Fair combat. Just like in our world, it involves a lack of subterfuge and giving your enemy a fair chance in a fight. For example, poisoning your enemy (Magatha-Cairne), or attacking from the back is usually seen as greatly dishonorable (Saurfang-Malfurion). Interestingly, even in GOT it is considered dishonorable to strike someone in the back. Perhaps it was a real thing?

  • Lack of cowardice. There are numerous example of this, but perhaps the most iconic is the Alliance deserters in the Borean Tundra, tossed alongside ‘pigs’ by the orcs.

  • Likewise, spreading false rumours with groundless accusations is dishonorable in nightborne societies, and a duel of honour can be issued on these grounds.

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The problem is, that just like in real life, honor is a concept too often used to justify things dubious at least and stupid at worst. The example of Saurfang is a great example of it: first he didn’t kill an enemy leader when he had the chance and cost thousands of lives on all sides, then he raised a rebellion during what seemed like a war on total annihilation thus endangering all of his people and many others, and in the end he got branded as a hero because a scummy warchief couldn’t stop herself from acting like an even worse traitor. And the same goes on on many sides: trying to adhere to honor either makes people dead or is just a way to gain power or glory. That’s one of the reasons Lin here, a former Sylvanas loyalist, became a follower of N’Zoth: he’s at least honest in the desire to rule the world, he’d see the mogu and other Titan-borne dead or worse and he wasn’t against bringing Pandaren race on top at the cost of everyone else.

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A Rite of Honour

Honour Cop aside, Torkazi’s tenet is ambition and the viper’s nest of Zanchul’s political courts render notions of consolidating power honourably beyond moot.

Generally, I view Zandalari society’s of honour inherently tied to heeding to the authority of the priesthood and the Loa, the Golden Throne, your military commander or otherwise, rather than honorable combat or defending the weak. As Atalhani summarises below, sticking to oath, debts and duty alike (often in fiction these are all conflicting interests!)

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Loalty.

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This character here doesn’t really define honour as something other than an annoying inconvenience that some personages cling to.

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‘Do I agree’

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He really is an example of how incoherent the concept of honour is in the Warcraft setting (and probably in general).

He’ll lead a war of unprovoked aggression that involved murdering his way through the ancestral lands of a neighbouring people, only to feel bad about it afterwards when it wasn’t conducted to his liking, and consequently was held up as a martyr by the leader of the faction he waged war against (Anduin that is, not Tyrande).

Saurfang’s story is really strange to me in that regard, because he’s pretty blatantly a villain in his choices during the War of Thorns. It’s a continuation of how orcs are portrayed as pretty inherently prone to violence (WoD showed that they didn’t need demon blood to become murder hobos), despite all the times we’re told that he’s meant to be a traumatised, guilt-ridden veteran.

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The concept of Honor is interesting in many ways. As a Warlock player I usually do not fall into that camp but I do think about it.

I like Zapius take on it above in general. Being a Good, Honorable and in general nice person is the hard path to walk. It is to suffer, because you can be taken advantage of and it can be very restrictive with what actions you can take.

In stark contrast as a Warlock such things rarely become a problem as to be one you have to walk in the dark and use underhanded means to get what you want. Not playing fair or following such a strict code.

It is usually why figures such as Uther The Lightbringer are so looked up to, they keep to their codes of conduct and do their duty knowing full well that they will be taken advantage of. Though from the outside view it can seem like that person is being to stubborn and stupid to work around a trap for example. But it is as Uther says ¨If we let our passions turn to bloodlust, then we will become as vile as the orcs.¨

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It should be noted that orcish honor isn’t a concept against fighting or violence: it is not about respecting one’s conscience, or respecting universal human rights.

In fact, a honorable death is sought after by most orcs, with them believing that death during combat is actually the best death one can desire. As far as I can tell, the orcish concept of honor is not against war itself, but war conducted with unfair methods. Saurfang is against Sylvanas’ methods more than the war itself.

In many ways, I always envisioned Saurfang’s rejection of Sylvanas’s war as based on something more than honor, something such as a genuine refusal to embrace that kind of brutal cruelty that his people had already embraced in the past. He abhors the war, but his culture - the orcs, the Horde - always embraced it.

So how does an orc express this new acknowledgement, a moral dimension that entails a respect for conscious lives, and a hate against the horrors of war? Well, through more familiar terms: he recognizes that Sylvanas’ way of fighting is unfair, and thus the code of conduct of old [honor] can become an ally of the new persona within himself [universal morality]. He can denounce this war without having to embrace fully this greater dimension - which is likely connected to his sense of guilt during the first war.
Is he incoherent at the beginning? Yes, but it is because he is developing something within himself.

Thus, eventually, to describe this refusal to embrace Sylvanas’s Horde he uses the concept he has inherited from his people, that of honor.

------------------ EDIT. ------------------------
Concepts of honor and dishonor can become quite weird. During medioeval times there was a samurai ritual in which a samurai would test a new sword or a new technique on a random passenger on a road, killing them. It was unlawful, yet it is debatable if it was also considered dishonorable (according to some authors I have read, it was not).

As a social construct honor is not necessarily a force of good, for example it alone isn’t enough to acknowledge inalienable human rights to all. Today we would consider most wars wrong, or a necessary evil. In terms of honor, a war just doesn’t have to be dishonorable - it would simply demand that a war is fought fairly.

…judging by the ancient times standards, I’m not sure how much it truly mattered in wars and if so, to which extent, and I imagine it was more important inside a nation, in duels of honor, feudal ties with your lords, rather than between two factions at war.

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As a staunch individualist, Lintian sees “honor” as a nebulous and ill-defined concept that societies use to enforce conformity through public shame and subsequent ostracization. It isn’t part of her personal moral compass.

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Saurfang: A night elf assassin trying to kill me by way of subterfuge is honourable and deserves respect.
Also Saurfang: Me axeing Malfurion in the back while he’s battling the Warchief is dishonourable. I am a monster.

(these are both from the War of Thorns)

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Sounds more like Saurfang acknowledging that NElves have a very different way of fighting battles and/or wars and that he might accept that the NElf way of battle is honourable in their eyes, and not his own

While in the end, him axe’ing Malfurion in the back is actually quite dishonorable in his (and his people’s) eyes.

I mean its the same story that has him acknowledge that a Night Elf(Malfurion, in this case) cares nothing for a mak’gora, which is one of the most honorable battles in Orcish society

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We can all agree that Saurfang is not just a clown but an entire circus… Can’t believe he took us all for a ride through expensive cinematics and unecessary quests that amounted to nothing. Truly, only the loyalists got some extra content out of it despite being the losers here.

The concept of honor in WoW rather crumbles when faced by the numerous and painful cases where pragmatism prevailed over principles. Warlocks, Death Knights, Demon Hunters, all these three are reviled, certainly not on the same spectrum but if given the choice and not lose anything in the process, I’d like to believe the two factions would never accept them (Alliance denied the Forsaken but DKs are fine thanks to a single man’s vouch is odd.) or outright hunt them. I know the key difference here is circumstances at the time, some even world ending which rationalizes their inclusion.

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I am not going to argue against this, but strictly speaking the thread is about discussing what honor is, rather than why you should not be honorable, or why it doesn’t work.

While I personally stand that it is an anachronistic concept with several flaws, there is a nuance that it is lost the moment one goes directly for an “yes or no” perspective, especially in WoW which these days has to rely on the fans to bring some more depth to the setting.

Consider it an exercise in role-play: if you want to enter your character’s mind, you want to know what certain words mean to him/her/they, no? What is their reasoning behind said character, and so forth.

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Well, I agree with your definition of it at the start of the thread. I don’t think I can add any more to it really. Now what it means to my characters will vary but I’ll entertain the exercise when it comes to this one.

“Honor? Pffft, honor doesn’t fill a stomach or quench thirst.”

Ray wouldn’t think much about honor in the terms of fairness or courage for he understood quickly that fairness is rarely found. For the Vulpera even if he doesn’t think about it, honor would be for him fulfilling Maslow’s pyramid when he was a Vol’dun resident but without ever reaching the point of self-actualization. Feeding his burrow-mates, fending off attackers through any means possible and necessary, protecting each other. His unconscious understanding of honor is firmly rooted in loyalty to the posse he’s chosen so long as it’s all mutually beneficial.

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Ghormisa defines honour by her actions afforded by the virtues of her faith and how they affect those that matter to her.

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Honor is an interesting one, especially given that I play a paladin. I too read Blood and Honor a while ago, and if we look to the scene where Tirion lets Eitrigg get up again before continueing the fight, in Des’ case it would depend on if his foe values honor aswell. If he’s up against a foe that clearly does not care for it, he’d simply go for the kill then and there. But if it was a foe like Eitrigg that does care about it, he might’ve done the same.

What also comes into play is that I tend to play Des as a paladin that is less bogged down by traditions and decorum than some of his brethren, and war has given him a more pragmatic view upon many things. For instance, when he was held captive by goblins during the Fourth War, they let him go on the condition that he’d give them information about Boralus’ defenses, but given that it was an oath practically forced from him at gunpoint ( they were in a rowboat and it was very likely they’d just toss him overboard with a rock tied to his feet if he didn’t agree) he felt no compulsion about lying just to free himself. Some would perhaps call that dishonorable or unworthy of a paladin.

In general I have Des stick to a general concept of honor, like trying to be a good person, fight for those that cannot protect themselves, stick to your agreements if you make them, and do not fight unless it is out of necessity to protect someone or something.
As a result of this philosophy of fighting to protect, and due to his more pragmatic view upon war, for him the honor is also in doing what you can to attain victory, and making sure that his honor does not get those around him or under his command killed, as he feels the responsibility towards his fellow soldiers matters more.

In hindsight, I reckon his personality is more like that of the old Argent Templars from the TCG, as they were described as caring more about a general sense of goodness rather than traditions and ceremonies, even if Des doesn’t have their powers.

Anyhow, I hope I made sense!

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This character is originally a civilian, happy to have lived out her life in the ignorance of the bubble that was Quel’Thalas. In those days, any notions of being honourable were at best how to present oneself in society with dignity and pride.

Decades have come to pass during which she fought for her people, suffered the betrayal of their prince and fought both against and alongside the races of the Horde and the Alliance. During these long years she has lost any notion of being a person worthy of respect, let alone be considered honourable.

Now a creature cursed by the Void, Consumer is given cause for new ambitions. Well aware of how different races view and act on their notions of honour, she considers such knowledge but another tool at her disposal. Although she has strong convictions and often believes herself to be in the right, she has no false notions of considering herself honourable. She is forevermore haunted by certain deeds from her past, hence there are lines she tries to avoid crossing at all times:

  • Harming the innocent, especially bystanders
  • Being needlessly cruel
  • The harming of children

This isn’t to say that she hasn’t the capacity to be cruel or choose to look the other way if she believes it serves a greater goal. One does not become a warlock of note without damning both oneself and others along the way.

In those twilight hours where the blood on her hands weights heavy upon what remains of her soul she is reminded of prices too steep to pay.

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