How Modern WoW Killed Its Own Legacy

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

But at what cost are we getting Housing?

For us: No cost.
There’s a whole seperate team, who tackle housing exclusively.
For Blizzard: Monetary cost. This team doesn’t come free.

@Jito-turalyon

And having that development team create Housing, means that that development team isn’t creating something else.

They never would have anyway. Because that team was created to develop housing.

@Jito-turalyon

As a player I’m perfectly happy to simply share my thoughts and feelings on the game to the degree I’m confident in those thoughts and feelings.

Alright, then we are different.
As a player I’d like to provide clear feedback that Blizzard, in the tiny offchance that they do something with it, can work with.

@Jito-turalyon

So I have given this a lot of thought, hence why I asked the guy himself – and he didn’t even seem able to truly focus on a single matter himself!

He’s leading the development of a game. Of course he has to take all sorts of considerations into account.

We as players don’t.
But… If we ignore certain things, or certain players, then those players are going to butt heads on the forums. Because players tend to not like being ignored or when other players want the opposite of what they want.

@Jito-turalyon

What are your thoughts on what WoW’s single biggest design challenge is going forward in the long term?

That’s a completely different question and you know that.
We were talking about ‘putting into words what you like and dislike about the game’.

So don’t try and play me. I don’t appreciate that.

@Jito-turalyon

It’s the same with game design.

Game design is irrelevant.
You can tell WHEN YOU PLAY what you like and don’t like.
Literally. You don’t have to take into account how and why it’s designed that way.
You just like it or not. Or anything in between those extremes.

@Jito-turalyon

But I can’t really deduct that the reason why I like WoW less is because of a certain implementation to the game, or multiple ones, and that certain other changes or implementations could make me like WoW more.

How the hell am I supposed to know that?

Just look at the game NOW. It doesn’t matter ‘when’.
You’re completely totally overanalyzing it. I’m not asking you to dissect your own psychology. Jesus christ.

In today’s game. What do you like doing.
In today’s game. What do you dislike doing.
Extremely simple questions.

I need to go to bed anyway. So I’m calling it a day.

[Broduin-silvermoon]

What I mean is that Blizzard would be well-served to understand properly why classic was successful without trying to copy it directly. How can they recreate some of that emotional experience from classic. Or why even think about classic, let’s broaden the scope: How can Blizzard make wow feel more like one would feel in a JRPG or a Baldurs Gate 3 playthrough rather than making us feel like playing a modern ubisoft open world game, where we just go through content-lists mechanically. Of course a different game can’t just copy the same tools. It’s about understanding player psychology in the end on a level that doesn’t just try to squeeze engagement numbers. Actual player psychology needs to be differentiated from that statistics-driven shallow analysis, that the corporate world loves, because it inflates the Ego of many CEOs

[Shiverwind-hydraxian-waterlords]

Classic was successful because of nostalgia and that people trained on pservers for years, min maxing everything. Then came to Classic to boast.

Many saw the opportunity to gather old pals and replay that adventure and rediscovered the adventure. I was one of them… leveled up and that was it. I didn’t touch the endgame because the sweat was too thick.

To recreate such an experience it will require multiple factors and the main one being no PTR, no previews, no “leaks”. Release a new expansion or zone and let players discover for themselves. Everyone knows what’s BIS, locations of everything etc with a month prior of release (in case of patches).

It’s very hard to get that sense of adventure back in this era where people want information YESTERDAY (corpo talk, sorry).

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Pippy-earthen-ring

For us: No cost.
There’s a whole seperate team, who tackle housing exclusively.
For Blizzard: Monetary cost. This team doesn’t come free.

It’s still a cost for players.

Let’s say Blizzard has 1000 developers.
If I am a player who only cares about Arena in WoW, then my selfish desire would be that those 1000 developers all work on improving Arena in WoW.
Any developer, even a single one, who is working on something else, is a developer who isn’t working on Arena, to the detriment of my utopian WoW experience.

Even if Blizzard hires more developers and end up with 2000 developers, it’s the same equation. As a pure Arena players, I now want all those 2000 developers devoted to Arenas, because that’s what in my own selfish interest.

Player will always want 100% of the developers devoted to the things in the game that they favor and no developers devoted to the things they don’t, recognizing that development resources are finite and that changes and additions to the game are limited. One always comes at the cost of another thing.

@Pippy-earthen-ring

They never would have anyway. Because that team was created to develop housing.

And the money spent hiring those people could instead have been spent hiring other people who could have worked on other things that aren’t Housing.
Again, finite resources, prioritization, limitations.

@Pippy-earthen-ring

Just look at the game NOW. It doesn’t matter ‘when’.
You’re completely totally overanalyzing it. I’m not asking you to dissect your own psychology. Jesus christ.

It’s my prerogative to respond in the way I like, and I can analyze to the degree I please, as you can ask for specifics to the degree you please. It goes both ways.

@Pippy-earthen-ring

In today’s game. What do you like doing.
In today’s game. What do you dislike doing.
Extremely simple questions.

Hmm…
Extremely simply questions. So extremely simple answers.

I’m struggling with the first one. Truly. I want to say Epic Battlegrounds, but that doesn’t apply if they’re too one-sided or against premades. So it’s a conditional like.
I struggle to name anything else that I like. I’d say anything in WoW is more habitual and driven by the comfort of familiarity and routine than by genuine joy and like.

Dislike…That’s also a strong word and I am coming up empty here as well. Closest thing I can think of is excess reading. Like those books you find around in the game that are 10 pages of random nonsense? But some of them are good and not too long, so not all of them, but some of them…

I’d say that, personally, WoW is a not a game that is super emotional. I’m not exactly laughing my way through a Dungeon or rushing home from work because I’m super thrilled about completing daily quests, and I’m not yelling at the screen whenever I die to a raid mechanic or lose a loot roll.

WoW is mostly a game of habitual comfort for me, and the realization for me is that this pull that the game has, this good vibe it instills in me as I play it, is slipping, and has been slipping for long. Like a magnet that isn’t as strong as it used to be.
I guess that’s what the other people call “soul” but I’m not so melodramatic as to describe it that way. It’s like someone has rearranged your furniture and it all looks fine, but it doesn’t feel good in the way it used to. And it’s hard to say specifically why that is, but it simply is.

@Pippy-earthen-ring

I need to go to bed anyway. So I’m calling it a day.

I concur. Nice chat.

[Sodachen-lothar]

@Broduin-silvermoon

a modern ubisoft open world game

offtopic but that’s not just “modern” ubi, they’ve been doing this for decades now, across their whole franchises since AC1, with Farcry, Ghost Recon etc. literally every game they put out fells kinda samey…

[Lynlia-silvermoon]

@Noremorse-outland

World of Warcraft, where fans of the game hate on others for enjoying the game.

Does make it fun forum entertainment.
Here, want some ?

[Broduin-silvermoon]

Yeah, I also dislike this usage of the word “modern”. Shouldn’t have used it. Mistakes happen

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

Player will always want 100% of the developers devoted to the things in the game that they favor and no developers devoted to the things they don’t

Only very greedy, narrowminded and frankly dumb players would want that.
We all have out preferences, of course, but we’re not alone in this playerbase.

So I just find your argument extremely weak.
If I look at myself: Would I like them to spend more time and resources on developing more engaging world content? Hell yes. But I wouldn’t want them to put 100% of their resources into it, because WoW is more than just that type of content.

@Jito-turalyon

And the money spent hiring those people could instead have been spent hiring other people who could have worked on other things that aren’t Housing.

Again: Silly reasoning. Couldawouldashoulda.

@Jito-turalyon

It’s my prerogative to respond in the way I like, and I can analyze to the degree I please, as you can ask for specifics to the degree you please. It goes both ways.

When I ask you ‘what’s your favorite colour’ and you respond with ‘well, I need to do a full introspective on myself and dissect my current state of mind combined with the deeply rooted psychology behind the preference of liking a colour and sorry, that’s just not that easy’ … Then I’m going to dismiss you as deeply weird at best and a troll at worst. Because that is not a normal response. I’m just telling you how it looks from my perspective.

@Jito-turalyon

WoW is mostly a game of habitual comfort for me

Same.
But I can tell you, without needing to analyze anything that that is mainly due to:

• WoW’s familiar setting, even though we explore new places, it still feels familiar (for me large parts of Shadowlands were the exception: I had a total WoW disconnect there in terms of the zones - and that is a major factor in my dislike for that expansion).
• The gameplay (especially how routinely I can play my hunter, with years of experience)
• Questing. I just enjoy it. So anytime we get new quests, I’m delighted. I don’t always enjoy them after the fact, but us getting new quests is enough to ‘spark that familiar feeling of seeing new content’.
• The connection I’ve build with my character(s). They themselves are comforting. Always there if I want to play them.
• I am a creature of habit (as are a lot of human beings). So having it be part of my routine just feels good (even though it’s no longer a strictly daily routine, like it was in the past).

There’s more smaller factors, but those things are generally the reason why WoW is (and has been) a habitual comfort for me.

Anyway… Goodmorning!

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Pippy-earthen-ring

Only very greedy, narrowminded and frankly dumb players would want that.
We all have out preferences, of course, but we’re not alone in this playerbase.

So I just find your argument extremely weak.

I think you take the 100% a bit too literal.

Players are selfish. You won’t find a single post on this forum where a player has expressed feedback on behalf of others. No one has ever come here and suggested that Blizzard shouldn’t prioritize improving the class they play, the content they do, or the ideas they have. No one has ever shown that kind of selflessness - and for good reason. We all pay money for this game to have our own fun, not for others to have their fun.
Yes we can recognize that there are others and that their desires also matter, but everyone here argues their own self-interest, and that also applies to what they think Blizzard should work on.

@Pippy-earthen-ring

There’s more smaller factors, but those things are generally the reason why WoW is (and has been) a habitual comfort for me.

I would be inclined to agree with that and again simply say that those factors were stronger in the past than they are today, thus the habitual comfort is declining.

I can’t exactly pinpoint where Blizzard screws up or tell them how to fix it, I can just conclude that they are increasingly trending toward a less good product for me.

Right now I would say that K’aresh isn’t a bad zone, but it isn’t a particularly good zone either. And that kind of mediocre quality, the meh of WoW, and the continual absence of truly amazing content in the game, is death by a thousand cuts.

It’s not that Blizzard have introduced all the ills of the game with Ghosts of K’aresh, but when you look at the game over a period of 5-10 years it becomes apparent that it is in a place, and sailing in a direction, that feels entirely unwanted.

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

I think you take the 100% a bit too literal.

If you say 100%, I take it to mean ‘100%’.
Words matter.

@Jito-turalyon

Yes we can recognize that there are others and that their desires also matter, but everyone here argues their own self-interest,

Yes, of course. And that’s completely fine. It’s not our ‘job’ to care about other players’ fun. That’s what the devs get paid for.

@Jito-turalyon

Right now I would say that K’aresh isn’t a bad zone, but it isn’t a particularly good zone either. And that kind of mediocre quality, the meh of WoW, and the continual absence of truly amazing content in the game, is death by a thousand cuts.

I would agree.
K’aresh is not my type of zone. I’ve never liked bleak, ravaged settings. I didn’t like Outland, I didn’t like Argus, I didn’t like the Maw. And I don’t like K’aresh in that aspect.

I’m more lenient towards K’aresh at the moment though, because it’s not underground. I’m so sick and tired of being underground, that ‘not being underground’ already is a positive element of this new zone.

I do like the domes and I like Tazavesh as a hub.

But overal: World content needs to be looked at. It needs more exploration, more adventure, more of a reason to be there.

I really hope that the rumoured Remix feature of ‘different difficulty settings for the outdoor world’ is them doing a test run for the live game. Such a feature could even make world content into actual endgame content - if implemented correctly.

[Strength-silvermoon]

Good job, Pippy, you managed to hijack a thread and make it all about yourself. We have 200+ posts replying to you alone. If this isn’t textbook narcissism, then I don’t know man…

[Cutysark-draenor]

it’s been the Pippy Show

[Praetorian-sylvanas (Praetorian)]

@Pippy-earthen-ring

Then why have millions of players enjoyed WoW for years (since they’ve been making the game for a diverse collection of gamers for many many years) and still enjoy WoW today?

That isn’t ‘no one’, is it?

Because those millions come to WoW when WoW meant something… i mean the fact that wow meant something attracted them.

They created nothing beside microtransaction shop, they living like parasites, like rats, like bacteria on their old legacy, which melts from day to day.

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Praetorian-sylvanas

Because those millions come to WoW when WoW meant something… i mean the fact that wow meant something attracted them.

Many players today started way later than that… We have players who started in WoD, Legion, BfA, Shadowlands, hell even DF.

Anyway: I started at launch and I came here because of Warcraft’s earlier games. I loved the idea of a world in that universe that I could roam in.

But guess what? After 2 expansions where they continued to give us ‘raid or die’, I quit.
So they failed.

It wasn’t until years later, when the game had received lots of QoL improvements that I came back (in WoD). So, in my personal case: You’re wrong. I left because WoW was what it used to be and came back because of what it became.

@Praetorian-sylvanas

They created nothing beside microtransaction shop, they living like parasites, like rats, like bacteria on their old legacy, which melts from day to day.

How dramatic.

[Jito-turalyon (Jito)]

@Pippy-earthen-ring

So, in my personal case: You’re wrong. I left because WoW was what it used to be and came back because of what it became.

Anecdotes aside, I think it’s fair to say that WoW in its current format isn’t exactly trending toward greener pastures.
On the one hand that’s certainly worrying if you’re Blizzard and you’ve spoken about the next decades of adventure on a Blizzcon stage – how many will be along for that adventure?!
On the other hand it’s maybe not a disaster if the 22 year old game is starting to show its age in terms of declining popularity – players quitting after having played WoW for many years is completely reasonable.
But if you’re Blizzard and this is your flagship game and the one that keeps the lights on in the office building, this current approach to WoW isn’t really ideal. Cross your fingers that Housing will bring about some kind of renaissance or hope that elves is the hottest thing in gaming.

[Warlóór-steamwheedle-cartel]

Side effect of m+ and four raid difficulties i guess

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Jito-turalyon

Anecdotes aside, I think it’s fair to say that WoW in its current format isn’t exactly trending toward greener pastures.

It’s not doing that, regardless. It’s a 20 year old game.
It’s going to die. Eventually.

@Jito-turalyon

On the one hand that’s certainly worrying if you’re Blizzard and you’ve spoken about the next decades of adventure on a Blizzcon stage – how many will be along for that adventure?!

I think what they do after the Worldsoul Saga is probably the most important decision Blizzard makes (not counting making WoW in the first place, of course).

@Jito-turalyon

But if you’re Blizzard and this is your flagship game and the one that keeps the lights on in the office building, this current approach to WoW isn’t really ideal.

But what would be?
I honestly don’t think this game would have more players right now, no matter what they would have done.

In terms of game mechanics anyway.
That whole scandal and their own personal prolonged agony over it; frantically making all kinds of changes in some desperate move to get away from all of that. I think that was WoW’s biggest breaking point.

@Jito-turalyon

Cross your fingers that Housing will bring about some kind of renaissance or hope that elves is the hottest thing in gaming.

Well, if it ends, it ends.
There’s plenty of things to be entertained by.

[Cutysark-draenor]

@Pippy-earthen-ring

bullies

Lol , you are hopeless. And you just try to “win” by saying something like that… how desperate anyway…

[Pippy-earthen-ring]

@Cutysark-draenor

Lol , you are hopeless. And you just try to “win” by saying something like that… how desperate anyway…

No, I don’t ‘try to win by saying something like that’. I say something like that because I feel that’s an accurate description of his behaviour.

He became unpleasant and insulting without provocation (we even had a pleasant exchange the day before ).
What would you call that?

[Raelyne-golemagg]

Modern WoW is just a season of M+, again and again and again.