How to fix Korrak's Revenge?

Community General Discussion
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At first I want to point out that I do appreciate that we got to play the Alterac of Olde / Korrak’s Revenge and that we got to see Ivus and Lokholar again. But there were several threads which pointed out what’s wrong with Korrak’s Revenge. It would be great if we could work out solutions now.

I’m still hoping that Blizz might react if we can find solutions. I really would love to see a blue post in this matter, too.

As a start I try to summarize the major points from other threads below. Prepare to face a wall of text. :sweat_smile: In case I forgot to mention some points or if I’m not aware of some points, please let me know.

What’s wrong?
I think it all comes down to the factionwide win rate. The closer this rate is to 50:50 the better. The actual win rate seems to vary, but from what I’ve see it is like 1:10 (A:H) by now. As a result people who want to win either play on horde side or they stop participating which should further increase the unbalance and the queue times on horde side. This situation does cause a lot of discontent. I also think that this situation has a negative impact on WoW in general and on the community.

What causes it? (Not sorted by impact)

  1. PvE players must enter KR if they want the event mount even if they are not interested in PvP at all. There seem to be more PvE players (edit: PvE only players) on Alliance side.
  2. Passive XP. It encourages going AFK, going semi-AFK or simply not participating properly. Some people accepted their low win rate and try to maximize their passive XP gain, by trying to lose quickly (in their mind: maximum passive XP per time = passive XP + quick BG ending XP). They actively sabotage their team by writing “Let’s lose fast” or “Let them have that bunker” for example.
  3. Mercenary mode. The most consistent passive XP without long queue times while AFK, semi-AFK or while simply not playing for the win is gained on Alliance side. Also doing quests for the mounts (Horde and Alliance version) while not participating in actual PvP is quicker on Alliance side due to shorter queue times. Horde players who want to benefit from this join Alliance queue as mercenaries (in addition to the Alliance players with the same goal). On the other hand Horde players who want to win will probably not go mercenary at this point. This increases the unbalance even more.
  4. Map design. Shorter distance from Horde point of view. => Headstart.
  5. NPC design. Commander HP was fixed, there is no doubt that this was wrong. There is still something wrong from what I’ve seen. I do not have the exact numbers, if someone has the numbers, please let me know. From the statistics I made - in a PvE rush game - Alliance characters are more likely to die to the NPCs and there is usually less AOE damage (from unholy DK’s for example) on Alliance side during a PvE rush game. Therefore I assume the ratio of elite NPCs to normal NPCs (that are vulnarable to AOE damage) and / or the health / damage of the NPCs is not perfectly balanced.
  6. Secondary objectives. Rushing primary objectives is the most effective tactic. If the forces are split between primary objectives and secondary objectives (Korrak, quests for the mount etc.), the primary objectives are more likely to fail. The secondary objectives are not impactful enough to compensate for that.
  7. Korrak. In the beginning, where everyone wanted Korrak, he was almost handed over to the Horde. There were some fixes and by now most people do not care for Korrak. Korrak must be skipped if a team is going for the PvE rush. Korrak is not a big factor now.
  8. EDIT: Alliance DKs can contol Horde Abomination Guard NPCs.
  9. EDIT: Horde characters dying in Vanndar’s bunker don’t get teleported to a Graveyard and can therefore ressurect in Vanndar’s bunker straight away.

What can be done? What are the priorities?
Foremost I kindly ask Blizz to care more about balance. I know my vote alone does not change anything. But I doubt that I’m alone in this matter. This is the highest priority in my opinion. => Priority 1

  1. At this point everyone should have the mount? If yes, there is no need to change this detail now. For the next event like this, I ask Blizz to give PvE players other means than PvP to get the same reward with a similar time investment. They could be doing daily quests in the real Alterac valley (not the BG) for example. It also would have helped to keep the spirits high if this was fixed in the beginning of the event. => Probably not relevant for KR at this point, but high priority 3 for future events.
  2. Award XP for completing objectives only and more XP per objective to maintain the current XP gain per time. => Priority 3
  3. Disable mercenary mode or make it work both ways. If horde players are allowed to join Alliance queue, then it would be fair if Alliance players were able to join Horde queue as well. I’m aware that both options will have a negative impact on queue times if no additional steps are taken. I still think it’s a good thing because it means that actual balancing must take place. And the actual balancing is what we should aim for in my opinion. => Priority 1
  4. |Edit: Open the Horde X seconds later. X is the time difference between the Alliance travelling time to Drek’ and the horde travelling time to Vanndar.| Just change the starting position or place barriers in order to make the distances equal. I’m talking about the actual traveling distance due to obstacles, not just the direct distance between the starting point and the ending point. => Priority 2
  5. This one should be easy to look into for the developers. Exactly the same amount of corresponding normal NPCs and corresponding elite NPCs guadring each corresponding tower / bunker and graveyard. Equal amount of corresponding normal and elite NPCs between the starting point and the first tower / bunker. Equal amount of corresponding normal and elite NPCs between each tower / bunker and each graveyard. Equal amount of not skippable corresponding normal and elite NPCs in each base. Corresponding elite and normal NPCs on both sides must have exactly the same health and damage values. Basically everything equal besides of the NPC names. => Priority 2
  6. Secondary objectives can be made more impactful. It would add variaty if rushing primary objectives and defending them wouldn’t be the single best tactic and people who do secondary objectives (quests etc.) would not put the whole team at a disadvantage. => Priority 4
  7. Korrak is usually skipped now. No changes necessary at this point.
  8. EDIT: Probably a simple fix. Priority 4?
  9. EDIT: Fix teleportation from Dun Baldar to the nearest graveyard. Priority 4?

Summary of the priorities:

  1. Caring about actual balance. Remove or rework mercenary system to be fair. It reduces the effects of the unbalance on Horde side while increasing the effects of the unbalance on Alliance side, at least in KR.
  2. Equal amount / health / damage of normal and elite NPCs on the traveling path of each faction. Equal overall traveling distance |Edit: or open the Horde cave X seconds later. With X beeing the time difference of the travelling times from Horde and Alliance.|
  3. Award XP only for objectives. Not forcing PvE players into PvP.
  4. More impact from secondary objectives. EDIT: Bug fixes.

Here a little reward for those who read the wall of text above: :heart:
It would be great if you people could add your opinion. Please stay focused on KR. Also I kindly ask you to stay fair. I really want this thread to be constructive.

Thanks!

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Not needed at all and couldnt you post this in one of the countless other threads.

Merc isnt a problem
Leveling players are not a problem
Players in general on Alliance are the problem with there let them win fast attitude.

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I’m trying to summarize the points of other threads while keeping the focus on solutions for KR. My hope is still that Blizz might take a look into it, if there is enough positive, bundled input from the community.

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I think the more correct statement would be that there seems to be more PvP players on Horde side.
I mean, the Horde does also have the more flourishing PvE community.

I don’t think changing the map geometry in any way is wise. The whole point of Korrak’s Revenge is to play Alterac Valley in its old form. That does inevitably include all the flaws and imbalances that come with that.

But it is true that the map design favors the Horde a lot.
They start closer to the middle of the map.
Their path through all the bunkers and graveyards they need is basically just a straight line, which makes it easy to stick together as a uniform group. The Alliance has a road that splits in two with bunkers and graveyards and entry points all over the place. So they more easily get split up.

This is also one of those cases where you probably can’t change it, because then it’s not old Alterac Valley anymore.
Like, Lokholar is much stronger than Ivus, because Blizzard gave him a stacking damage buff. That’s incredibly unfair, but it’s also true to the original design.
Likewise with Drek’thar. He has a Whirlwind attack that does considerable AoE damage, whereas Vanndar has a Thunderclap ability that is much weaker. But again, this is true to the original design.

There’s also the fact that Alliance Death Knights can control the Horde Abomination Guard NPCs. Alterac Valley wasn’t designed with Death Knights in mind 15 years ago, so it is what it is.

II think what Blizzard will take from the Korrak’s Revenge event is a general concern about any future Horde vs. Alliance events, because a pattern is starting to form.
I don’t think Blizzard will make any (more) changes to Korrak’s Revenge. It is what it is at this point.

When they introduced the Southshore vs. Tarren Mill event that turned into an annihilation of Alliance players who struggled to fill up the entire group as people left the moment the Horde zerg train appeared. And Horde players struggled with insanely long queue times in the wake of having no one to fight against.

When they introduced the War of Thorns event and enabled Warmode in Darkshore for the BfA pre-expansion event, that turned into a horror story for Alliance player where every Warmode shard had twice as many Horde players all eager to slaughter any unfortunate Alliance players who appeared.

And the Warmode feature as a whole (and in specific cases like Nazjatar battle events) has also just turned into a Horde-dominated experience with Alliance players being all but eradicated to the point where even high reward bonuses don’t encourage participation.

And now with Korrak’s Revenge it’s more of the same. The Horde domination just overshadows the enjoyment the event is otherwise supposed to offer for everyone, and not just the winning faction.

So Blizzard must inevitably be aware of the likely consequences and outcomes of any Horde vs. Alliance gameplay events that they might consider for the future. It’s obviously not good game design to be ignorant and pretend everything is fine when one faction is so much under the boot of the other.

But yeah, Korrak’s Revenge is what it is. Blizzard aren’t going to make any changes to the game before patch 8.3 is released. We are ultimately closing in on the holiday season and that’s usually a quiet time in terms of WoW game development.

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But this will only punish people who actually do play it properly with some of your views.

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Good point. I edited this above in parentheses.

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Role playing servers would like to speak to you about that.

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You might be correct. I tried to name priorities in a effort to make them consider at least some changes. Even if they do not change anything now but are more careful about some designs in future, then the community input was worth it.

Mind to explain?

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How could it work both ways it just couldnt.
Horde has bad enough que times already and without mercs it would slow down alliance aswell .

Then it wouldnt be AV of 2005.

That isnt going to happen unless they make drastic changes to the game as a whole with the faction imbalance.
I for one as an alliance welcome merc mode.

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Yes, there’s an exception to every rule.
But in the case of Roleplaying servers, that exception is the result of a deliberate design change by Blizzard, on behalf of the roleplaying community.

You see, originally the intent was that Warmode would be a shared system for all servers with shards for everyone. So if you were on a Roleplaying server and opted into Warmode, you’d get sharded with everyone else.

The Roleplaying community raised concerns about that, because they wanted to preserve the opportunity to arrange RP-PVP events like they could with the old PvP server format.

So Blizzard changed the design and allowed Roleplaying servers to have their own isolated Warmode shards, so their roleplaying experience wouldn’t be interfered by non-roleplayers.

The unfortunate side-effect of that design accommodation however, is that the Warmode bonus is still decided by the total amount of Horde vs. Alliance players who opt into Warmode. And that is still a heavy overpopulation of Horde players, despite the fact that on the Roleplaying servers (and their Warmode shards) there’s an overpopulation of Alliance players.

So if the roleplaying community is unhappy about this arrangement – which they inevitably requested themselves – then it’s not me they need to talk to. It’s themselves and Blizzard.

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Did anyone say they were or did you assume that?
I was merely pointing out that horde in “general” doesnt own everything .

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But the Horde in general does own everything. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

The odd exceptions like Roleplaying servers and Oceanic servers, they make up such a small percentage of the total community that it doesn’t change the grand scheme of things.

Case in point: The Alliance still gets a whooping 25% Warmode bonus despite the fact that there’s a surplus of Alliance Warmode players on Roleplaying servers and Oecanic servers.
They don’t change the general state of affairs, because they’re not big enough to have a noticable impact. They’re a drop in the ocean.

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Im sorry i have no idea what you are trying to say . Im not meaning to be obtuse i was merely pointing out that you were not entirely correct that horde dominate everything .
Meant no offence by it and wast expecting an essay about it.

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Yes. On the other hand there were hotfixes regarding Korrak and the Commanders. So one can still hope? :wink: I also added priorites in case not everything can be changed.

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Okay. That is technically true. The Roleplaying servers and Oecanic servers can indeed be counted as Alliance-occupied territory, small and niche as they might be. :yum:

But to get back on topic in the case of Korrak’s Revenge, then Roleplaying servers do get grouped up with everyone else for that, which means that the Alliance roleplayers also get annihilated like all other Alliance players. So Roleplaying servers suffer from the same Horde dominance as everyone else, the moment they step outside their walled-off servers.

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The spawn is a huge factor but will never be changed.

The « let them win » attitude didn’t come out of nowhere : it’s due to hundreds of losses and tries which failed no matter what. No matter what you say it has an impact on morale and trust. It doesn’t help that the map design does favor the Horde overall.

I’m just glad I’m done with this crappy BG and got my mount.

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Yet alliance used to dominate the very same map back in late Vanilla and i have seen lots of Alliance wins in current version aswell.

Instead of sitting there and taking it .
Lead by example in a calm and controlled manner and lead ,guide and instruct the team to a win.

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They horde queue times for KR are still high (sometimes extremely high) even with the Mercenary system in place. In my opinion the current mercenary system in KR is not doing what it is supposed to do.

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So by removing merc mode it would make it even worse .
On avg my horde friends are waiting 30 to 45 mins at a time .

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It has gone worse than that. I was just in game where i got actually yelled at “for doing nothing” when i was alone capping fw keep towers, 10 of the players were standing afk in various spots (spot in mountains between alliance stables and sh gy seems to be popular) and rest were endlessly fighting for snowfall graveyard. It has gone to point when i now stop queueing on alliance side, i don’t need this crap for my leisure time.

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