How to improve an overall M+ experience: Problems, Desired Effects & Potential Solutions

Blizzard & fellow players,

I have been playing a non-meta class, Tank, since the BfA (the only two seasons that my class was considered meta, I wasn’t playing it). Before that, from WotLK to Legion, I was playing a DPS.

The reason I switched from a DPS role to a Tank?

My Mythic+ experience was very bad in Legion when playing outside of our main group. We always lacked a Tank, the Tank pretty much leads the dungeon, it’s a role ‘easier to get into the keys with’ and I simply decided that, if I play a Tank, I will experience more of Mythic+.

In general, if the Tank (or a Healer) are bad, you never get to experience the dungeon in a proper way. One bad DPS can sometimes be carried, but Healer and Tank don’t have a backup in the majority of situations. Many of the guides state to newcomers and people who are trying to get into Mythic+, who don’t have their own group, to first find a decent Tank and a decent Healer to play with on a daily basis (if they aren’t playing the role) and then pug the rest.


The Issues


I will list down the issues that I faced when trying to push for the title this season. With every point raised I will write a short summary of what, in my opinion, needs to be a desired effect of a later proposed solution. The key issues for me when trying to push Mythic+ this season are:

My Key, My Precious

The perception of the value of a single key is too intense. Key-holders (regardless of a level) will rather wait a whole week before playing their own key looking for a godcomp or flavor classes, rather than trying the key the moment it hits their bags. They will rather end up depleting on pull #1 on Monday (US) / Tuesday (EU) night before reset then playing on Tuesday (US) / Wednesday (EU) afternoon when the week is fresh.
Desider Effect: Remove the value of a single key.

Enough with Ara-Kara!!!

The balance of difficulty between the dungeons doesn’t exist - and this is OK. This always existed and always will. This is not the problem. The problem is that the players will get more excited about +15 Ara-Kara than a +17 Stonevault or +17 Grim Batol. They can relatively easily do a ++ of +15 Ara-Kara and hope for an easier key than Stonevault. For higher push, we often endlessly reroll lower keys into Ara-Kara or DB, which makes us run some keys much much more than others during the whole season. This does have the gratification effect at the end of the process, when you finally reach +17 of Ara-Kara and time it. I understand that this can be considered as a peak of happiness after a dauntless grind, like in many other games, but I believe that this grind can be more educational, fun, challenging than it is right now.
Desired Effect: Remove the importance of a specific dungeon key.

META should only be considered for 0.1% of keys, not ALL keys

There are disbalances between classes in all roles when considering a META comp. For example, there is a comp that works especially well with Prot Pala, Disc Priest and Augmentation Evoker - and this is OK. This always existed and always will. This is not the problem. The problem is that the only way to play Mythic+ is through a premade group finder or a stack of 5. General experience in premade group finder is this: when people who are not playing the highest keys see the top ranked players and what their comp for keys are, even without understanding the reasons behind it, they will neglect other classes when choosing who they will play their own key with. For example, in the current season, the key-holders will often prioritize Disc Priest + Enha Shaman + Prot Pala combo over anything, in order to get to their keys easier. Players often won’t be able to get into the level of key they already timed just because their class is not considered a ‘flavor class’. Again, this is not a class balance or META comp problem. This is the wrong perception and perspective that the community gets and there are no current systems to avoid this, because the premade group finder is the only way to currently play as an individual.
Desired Effect: Introduce more options for players to play Mythic+. Right now, we can only queue in a premade group finder. Otherwise they need a team of 5.


What works well & what doesn’t


I found some similar ideas to mine when browsing the forum and some information scattered around that can relate to mine but I think it’s important to put things in a structured way before proposing potential solutions. I will start with what I really enjoy.

What I think works really well in M+ TWW S1:

Unlike any other season before this one, you can push every week. - This is a huge bonus. I love this.
Suggestion: Please, keep it forever.
Effects: You don’t have to wait for push weeks and play other games in the meantime, you can commit to your favorite game every week.

Seasonal affix for the keys up to +11. - This is also great, with a little to no effort you get the boost to finish the dungeon which is also not always ‘free’ and gives some challenges in certain situations. This helps you do your weeklies faster on your main when you don’t have much time to play or on your undergeared alt.
Suggestion: Please, keep it forever.
Effects: Lower keys/weekly keys are easier and faster to finish.

Most of the classes have at least one spec that has a purpose in M+ - I am not talking about the high-end meta push group. If you’re looking to time 13-14, any class and any spec can work as long as you put enough effort into practicing playing with it. There are no dead classes.
Suggestion: Please, keep doing a great job Blizzard.
Effects: Any class can be played and enjoyed.

What I don’t think works well at all in M+ TWW S1:

Pugging - Although this has multiple layers - the purpose of mentioning this here is to state that there is no solo queue for M+.
Suggestion: Introduce a ‘solo-shuffle’ type of content where people can queue for Mythic+ as a solo, two, three or four players. It can be based on language, MMR, keys, and their level. You can’t play a 14 key until you previously timed a 13. This goes for everyone in the group, you can’t ‘carry people’ in a 14 but you can ‘boost’ them from 2 to 14 through + or ++ or +++ on lower keys. If it exists for Random Heroic, I fail to realize why it wouldn’t exist for Mythic+. One note is that groups of 2-4 can easily pug the rest in premade group finder (and choose the healer that works for their comp) so this doesn’t harm that option and that option should stay.
Effects: More time played for every player. Removes the keys and therefore the values of the keys completely. Players can now play the same dungeons and their levels repeatedly which will increase the experience in the dungeon, hence the quality of their play too. Just like they can in the Delves. Removes the barrier to entry for non-META specs.

Key depletion system - The system, as it is, is very exhausting and daunting. Even if you play in a team, if you’re looking for a specific key that will boost your score or you simply want to challenge yourself in a +1 from what you just timed, you either need to pug one person (which is already hard) or hope that you will see the key in your bag after you time the next key as a team, or wait a week and find it in the Great Vault.
Suggestion: Remove the key system completely. Every dungeon could have the same entrance as a Delve, where you can always choose and have all the levels available for that dungeon that you finished and +1 available as next. It can be enough that one player has timed the previous key and others just tag along. Just like it is in the current structure (you can invite anyone to your key regardless of the key levels that they have timed and this is very useful if your friend is rerolling to Enha shaman from a Hunter).
Effects: Removes the value of a single key. Removes the importance of a specific dungeon key. Improves the quality of play (if they continuously try, they will get better).


Positive side effects


The list of the potential positive side effects of these changes for anyone wanting to play Mythic+ would then be:

For the players playing solo or in an insufficient stack:

  • The barrier to entry for the new players will be removed. They can simply queue for the Mythic+ dungeon now.
  • Players can play Mythic+ solo.
  • Players can repeatedly queue for the same keys they want or need.
  • Improved character optimization, players will get the items they need faster.
  • More time spent in a dungeon rather than in a queue of a group finder for a dungeon.
  • Players looking for a specific class can still run the group finder.

For the players playing in a stack of 5:

  • Players get exposed to more Dungeon levels.
  • Players get more practice, hence get challenged more, learn more and progress in a better way with the same amount of time playing the game.

And finally, the biggest benefit for the community aka every player out there:

  • Players will quit the game when they exhaust the content. Not when they get exhausted by the lack of the ability to play. By the endless queue times in a group finder, not being a flavor class, not getting the keys they would like to push, endless re-runs of the dungeons they have already done many times for the sake of rerolling keys. Players want to grind, they will still grind, but let them grind the content they want. Don’t make them grind in order to be locked out of content due to an old flawed system or mentality of other players which is formed because of the flawed system, performance of certain classes in M+ or any other barriers.
  • These systems will help the game and the people still playing it when many people leave - i.e. with the release of a new Blizzard game or a patch for a game they love playing.
  • Leavers will be instantly dealt with through the system rather than be sanctioned after the reports. Handling this part will be easier and more gratifying for the affected players.

Additional


Outside of these systems, on a more individual level for a player, one major issue that I see when playing in the current environment is that, in order to play, the players are being passively ‘forced’ to get an alt if their character is not considered a flavor character. This results in the players needing to reroll into a different character in order to be able to play more and this will always happen - and this is OK. This is not the problem. The problem is that many people won’t know the class that they are rerolling into. Character optimization is a very important part, grinding crests and valorstones are also not easy. And there is a discount which doesn’t really get unlocked fast into a season. You miss all your opportunities from the vault if you start later and so on.

I play WoW for more than 15 years and I never touched or played the following specs: any spec of a Rogue, any spec of a Warlock, any spec of a Hunter, Shadow & Holy Priest, Arcane Mage, any Evoker, any Demon Hunter, Guardian & Feral Druid, Mistweaver & Windwalker Monk. These are 21 specs/different characters in total. Even if there is a class trial in game, I still don’t know what playing this character looks like when it is decently optimized in gear and what the playstyle is with the 4-set and all the appropriate trinkets and so on. On top of this, there are tunings to classes which can change the playstyle of a class completely (like recently with Enha shaman)
Suggestion: Players will decide to commit to a character easier if they are able to test it out in a system before they create it. Create a queue for the new players where you can pick any class/spec you want and run a test dungeon, which doesn’t have to be from the current season, in order to understand the new class. This doesn’t have to be high-end gear or peak of optimization. In Pandaria we had challenge modes - a set of dungeons on a certain level with a certain item level of all characters which was locked. Something similar can be made for testing the characters out. I have been playing since WotLK and wanted to cast Chaos Bolts (because I think that they are very cool) but never had a chance to commit to making a Warlock.
Effects: Players will understand the roles better. Players will also make better, more informed decisions when rerolling or playing a new character. There will be another option for players to play the game, rather than sit in the queue.


Apologies for a bit longer post and thank you for reading.

Kidre

This would not work can you even comprehend how long you would have to wait for people , Say someone has a 12 timed but you have listed a 14 so they cannot sign for your key because they havent done a 13, It would make the current lack of players in LFG even harder to find and it couldnt be role transferable ie… A balance druid times a 13 sees a 14 that needs a healer and signs as healer but only has timed a 10 as a healer is it still valid??

What they need to do is improve the AI in Follower Dungeons and then give us an option to boost the damage and output of the followers and do M+/Raids with them and finally do where the game is going anyway and turn it into a solo player experience.

People no longer WANT to play with other people they do it only because they HAVE to if they are solo playing (After all thats why the LFG tool was created so the solo players can find groups easier with less communication involvement)

It’s one of the many proposed changes, yes. And it is just one of the many solutions which would make the players more capable to finish dungeons and play the game more. You can see it as something which will boost an overall performance and experience of a player from 1-10 keys. It doesn’t have to necessarily work for +18 - but it can. Besides if you are talking about waiting time - did you ever queue as a Windwalker Monk this season for a +14 key and above? Their queue time is literally endless for example.

Either way it’s not about the specifics - it is about the system. Right now it doesn’t exist. I don’t believe you read my full post so you probably didn’t see that this requirement wouldn’t exist for the queue system related to Delves dungeon system (the one where you can just go with a group into any dungeon you want).

I don’t believe that playing Mythic+ with AI bots is any fun or the way to go for any game and especially not for Mythic+.

And to your point about the people playing with others because they ‘need to’ - isn’t it like that in any other game? Like DOTA, CS:GO 2, LoL and any other game which has the matchmaking option?

Ours sadly doesn’t and this is what the whole post is about.

M+ and high end raids are designed to offer a challenge to a GROUP. They are built around needing teamwork, communication, and strategic planning. It is not a content where you can run with bots.

That is the exact opposite of what the data shows. Players tend to play a lot longer when they have a friend group/social structure. On the other hand solo players are the ones that tend to leave the game first.

Overall solo content has a place in the game (and could be a pillar of the end game if designed well). They have shown that with the game tower and visions, but it is differently designed than group content.

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I can tell you the forum solution:

  • do it solo
  • do it queued (why ever this would be better)
  • no affixes
  • nerf mobs on sight, if you died on them
  • place the chest at the start of the dungeon, so you get your rewards instant without playing
  • auto ban every player, which does smth bad to you

(not all of this points are serious)

2 Likes

You forgot:

  • End of the dungeon loot on a +2 = 639 fully upgraded and contains 5 pieces for everyone.
  • If you deplete a key = key gets upgraded by 2 levels.
  • If you signup for whatever key = insta invite. Everyone owes an invite to you after all.
  • If you place a key in lfg instead = you get a full 4/5 MDI team begging to join your run.

We are receiving troll responses in this thread, meanwhile the devs think that the death counter is the problem.

If we don’t address the problem in a serious manner, it will never be on the radar of the devs.

You want a serious response? ok… you asked for it.

Remove it from WoW Live entirely, and make it it´s own spinoff game like it always should have been from the start

Most M+ players don´t care for the world, anyway, so why force them to traverse it to begin with? They only need the dungeons, 8 different ones every 6 months, and a queue simulator.

And if it´s its own game, then they can maybe even get their 8 new dungeons every 6 months if the sub price supports it, and not have to deal with “cheap recycled content” every season.

Additional benefits:
No more tedious leveling to cap first
No more repair and consumable costs
No more “endless” 2-3 week wait before the seasons start
And they could even just straight up give everyone maxlevel gear and make it into a true test of skill = No more whining about gear parity or having to chase high end raid items “To be able to perform” in kinderkeys.

And No More delvers and raiders ruining the experience of the self professed elite that often can´t play their way out of a paper bag.

And the rest of the community can then finally at least attempt get back to something remotely resembling a social game, instead of constantly having to cater to people that want a Moba with dungeons with zero human interaction.

Maybe it will one day even be possible to run any form of instanced content without it immediately becoming a speedrun at best and a cheeserun at worst.

I am DEAD serious

This already exists in the game in the form of the mdi tournament realms. Just make it public. It’d be interesting to see where most people play

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