How to revive WoW PvP:

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@anon8701015

Getting better in mmos is usually something community-based, and I didn’t say they should remove 3v3.

It could effectively make 3v3 worse. If the only rewards ppl get is at 2400 rating alot of ppl will feel theres no point. And thats the start.

@anon8701015

If you get no rewards, unless you get better, it sucks for MMOs imo, because it makes people not play for fun anymore. Wow pvp is most fun, if you just mess around, do some world pvp, do some BGs and play objectives, etc.

Yes and no. Its your definition of fun which does not line up with everyone. Sure alot will agree with you, and most of those will be casuals aswell that dont rly want to put effort into it. Im quite the casual myself, but I see no reason for them to put those rewards as free with X amount of time played.
BGs are fun if you have ppl who play for objectives and dont troll around. That happens and it would be even worse with free rewards.
Lets say one of the “checklist” is to kill 40 ppl. Do you think they would do the objective or just hunt ppl that could cause a loss? Or do you only talk about WINNING which would most likely bring even more toxicity into BGs.

And ive said it a couple of times already. Its better if they make rewards for those type of casual BGs and such that you want as “grinding”. They dont have to actually change reward system in 3s/RSS since it gives you the casual farming you wanted, and if you want to put more effort into it you can do 3s/RSS.
Asking to get it because you like how they look is entitlement.

@anon8701015

Wow pvp is least fun if you completely hyperobsess about your UI, search all the weakauras, and spend 4 hours crafting your perfect UI to then finally play the game and have completely mentally insane people in shuffle telling you the most vile things

The toxicity is bad and blizz isnt the best at fixing it sadly and the only thing you can do is either turn off the chat or report him (and not reply to him) which usually ends up with a suspension.
The aura/weakaura and addons part is true. But its also with too much micro-ccs, too much specs have too much overall which usually ends up with ppl who just came into PvP not knowing whats going on and it makes them confused instead. The hope is for blizz if they truly want all these to be “mandatory” that they instead implement some of it into their game and cut down on some other parts.

@anon8701015

Solo shuffle and 3v3 arena reward monopoly is killing the game.

Thats wrong. Thats your opinion on whats “killing the game”. And how long history do you have with PvP? Just curious since you talk like you got several years worth with that comment.

@Nadjp-the-venture-co

I guess that’s why MMOs are in their golden age…
I got old for sure. Im an of wow player. I was there in vanilla, I was in a Grand Marshall group, I was doing the grind daily. Now I’m working, I have couple hours daily, maybe weekly, and the 12min queue, and if I’m unlucky the -50 rating ‘reward’ or getting whispers from some toxic wannabe is not really appealing. And unfortunately, by the numbers it looks I’m not alone with this.

I were there during vanilla aswell but I didnt rly put overall much effort into it.
Getting a job or anything is not really an excuse of why blizz should make it easier for you. I understand why you want it that way but thats more catering to your needs.
The toxicity in RSS is something I never understood why blizz isnt faster with. But I also never rly understood why ppl have to be max toxic in games in general.

[anon8701015]

@Yojeong-kazzak

Thats wrong. Thats your opinion on whats “killing the game”

Sorry, it’s killing the game for me mainly. Idk if it’s the reason in general, that it seems to be… so … deserted? Like all the group finder entries are empty, etc. I can say for me it’s the biggest fun killer, that I can only play arena to get rewarded for pvp, and I’m not just talking about gear. One of my characters is almost 2k rated as well I’m not terrible (I’m somehow worst at the game on my warrior in pvp), so I really gave arena a fair shot on 4 different chars and a lot of time, but it’s just not fun compared to all the other pvp content in the game.
Can you honestly say that you have fun and experience joy while playing solo shuffle? It’s a direct personal question for you. I encourage you to ask yourself this in the next lobby.

[Yojeong-kazzak]

@anon8701015

Sorry, it’s killing the game for me mainly. Idk if it’s the reason in general, that it seems to be… so … deserted? Like all the group finder entries are empty, etc.

Your solution would not make it better. Why would anyone go into group finder when they can just… que up?

@anon8701015

I can say for me it’s the biggest fun killer, that I can only play arena to get rewarded for pvp, and I’m not just talking about gear. One of my characters is almost 2k rated as well I’m not terrible (I’m somehow worst at the game on my warrior in pvp), so I really gave arena a fair shot on 4 different chars and a lot of time, but it’s just not fun compared to all the other pvp content in the game.

Like I explained. You can get mark of honor which you can buy older season PvP gear with, which is technically reward for your time.
Asking for rewards from ranked for casual BGs is dumb.
Instead ask for rewards thats bound to BGs if so.
Why does it have to be the rewards thats currently linked to RSS/3s? Why cant they make MORE rewards for casual content then?

@anon8701015

Can you honestly say that you have fun and experience joy while playing solo shuffle? It’s a direct personal question for you. I encourage you to ask yourself this in the next lobby.

I dont really play RSS atm or even 3s since I dont like how the spike dmg is currently. But I also have personal anxiety whenever I do something with a group since Im usually quite harsh with myself even when I keep striving to be better.
But the times I played RSS in S1, can say I felt more happy about reaching a certain rating for sure, if there were no rewards related to it I wouldnt even bother with RSS in general like most ppl.
Did I have fun and joy in it? Partly. Its not fun getting into matches where your teammates are… interesting kind of ppl. Thats also related to BGs and all that content. Even m+ is the same story every now and then.
Most ppl arent happy when they loose.
Most ppl are happy when they win. >_>

[Ayva-hydraxian-waterlords]

@Yojeong-kazzak

Reason for toxicity is quite easy. Blizz allowed it for too long so it infested into ppls behavior. Just look at LoL, you think its much better there? Or maybe CS:GO?
The only place ive seen where its not that much is FFXIV and its because they shut it down hard and fast.

Spot on, people signed a new agreement regarding toxicity and still cry when they get punished for gamer words, and will even defend it.

@anon8701015

The LoL community is way less toxic these days, but there are a few rare toxic apples that get banned after their first rage anyway

That’s one way of saying you don’t play that much league.

@Nadjp-the-venture-co

lvl up, gear up, farm reputation, farm mats, farm honor, farm conquest and yes then you can start to learn arena…

Lvling up takes the longest, you can gear up insanely fast in Dragonflight, reputation isn’t needed, mats can be bought cheap on AH for gold you make doing a few WQs (Or buy a token if you’re that lazy), while pvp is great in WoW and all, you still need to keep in mind you’re playing a MMORPG

@Nadjp-the-venture-co

But than there is an issue no? Why are people not afking in cs or cod? Because they enjoying the game… If you join a bg and you afking then it means the game is not fun for you… no?

You think that’d change with participation rewards? It’d only make it worse

@Nadjp-the-venture-co

I got old for sure. Im an of wow player. I was there in vanilla, I was in a Grand Marshall group, I was doing the grind daily. Now I’m working, I have couple hours daily, maybe weekly, and the 12min queue, and if I’m unlucky the -50 rating ‘reward’ or getting whispers from some toxic wannabe is not really appealing.

To me, that has the vibe of “I dont have time to get good anymore, so it has to be made easier” which doesn’t seem to fit the vanilla grand marshal grind mindset?

@anon8701015

Solo shuffle and 3v3 arena reward monopoly is killing the game.

Fried take, solo shuffle has brought more life to pvp than it has seen in a long time, especially with how it made rewards easier to obtain for the average player.

@Yojeong-kazzak

Why does it have to be the rewards thats currently linked to RSS/3s? Why cant they make MORE rewards for casual content then?

I’d like to know this too, there’s a weird obsession with making high rated rewards easier for the average player that never reached it before, we’re PvP, why should you get the best rewards for being mediocre?

[Broxis-blackrock]

more rewards for casual players is a good idea but removing the competetive reward strucuture for the arena ladder is bad.
If you turn the gladiator mount into a participation award then its no longer a meaningful reward. Its would be not different than the seasonal mount which literally nobody cares about.

This seasonal mount is btw exactly what you wish for. Seasonal progress from doing various pvp activities. It could be changed to include more casual pvp activities and there could be more of these casual rewards.

Just because you have no interest in being competetive and improve yourself does not mean rewards for playing better is bad for the game.

[anon8701015]

@Broxis-blackrock

but removing the competetive reward strucuture for the arena ladder is bad.

It should be restructured though. Currently arena rating has really almost all the rewards, and I think arena is the worst version of wow pvp to me in terms of fun. What is the point of making a mount, when almost nobody can get it? I don’t think this is good for the game. In raiding for example even LFR players can get the mythic sarkareth mount with a low drop chance, so it’s grindable for everyone, who raids. I think the gladiator mount should be the final reward of a very very long seasonal renown track with 50 stages. After someone is full renown they should get a currency for each level called “elite mark of honor” to buy elite appearances from past season. Wanna know why? Because people don’t respect arena 3v3’s integrity and it’s also not respected as an esport. There is no reason for it to reserve all rewards from pvp, because pvp itself is really fun. The solo shuffle spam mindset and people being constantly salty/tilted/angry over rating sucks, because wow is not a competitive game, even if mr bobby tries to market it as such.

Also, regarding LoL: Before I started wow, LoL was my main game for almost 9 years. LoL has a way better reward structure for just playing than WoW does. You can do any “pvp” content you want and you get skins/wards/emotes/etc.

[Vizion-deathwing]

I think the decline in PvP participation is a symptom of a wider problem: the general decline of WoW and the MMO genre.

The game really needs a major overhaul and reset. I wouldn’t be surprised if Blizzard have something planned for WoW’s 20th anniversary. But adding rewards to PvP is a bandaid fix that won’t help much in the long term.

WoW is dying and Blizzard essentially needs to decide if they want to invest resources into reviving it (development and marketing) or if they want to let it die and focus on other projects.

[anon8701015]

@Vizion-deathwing

I think the decline in PvP participation is a symptom of a wider problem

Not really. Arena is just boring content. It’s not really rocket science to understand why. Their biggest mistake is focusing on this dying aspect of the game. Same with M+ in PvE. The PvE scene is all about M+, and almost all the rewards are there and infinitely easier than doing the raid. Does that mean that M+ or solo shuffle is fun/good content long term? No. Should the game try to be pseudo-competitive? No. Should the game be fun? Absolutely. That’s how you keep people playing. If they log in, and they have fun and work towards rewards, the game is good and more people will play. If they log on however, and are hardstuck at 1600 rating as a healer and have people tell them to commit sudoku in shuffle, then the game will die slowly, and you will only have very hardcore players playing that view wow pvp as competitive and want to be great at it. However, this game sucks as a competitive game for the reasons above. The difference between my arguments and the others is that mine are completely obvious and substantiated. Sure, you can say “there is a hypothetical imaginary reason with the general decline of mmorpg”, but in the end: We both know that people wanna play wow, because it’s a great game. Riot is also making a mmo, because they see potential there.

[Vizion-deathwing]

I actually agree with most of what you said.

Arena is boring, which is why I don’t play it. The only thing more boring than playing arena is watching arena which, again, is why I don’t think WoW arena will ever be successful as an eSport.

I really wish Blizzard would focus more on BGs and objective-based teamplay content rather than 3v3 deathmatches but I guess some people enjoy it… At the end of the day nobody is forcing you to play arena.

I also agree that WoW is an awesome game and I wish it was as popular today as it was back in 2006-2008. But it’s not an easy game to get into. It’s one of the least newbie friendly games out there. People like Venruki and Asmongold have made pretty compelling arguments that WoW needs an overhaul if it wants to attract new players and I tend to agree.

[Øbvious-drakthul]

How to revive WoW PvP

How? Well, we let it die and remake it 10y later, when everybody forgot this perversion ever existed.

[Takirukido-mograine]

If you want to revive PVP
Make more PVP rewards for that season at lower ratings
Revamp Rating and MMR systems so people can progress or replace them with something better
Make classes simpler so people can understand them
No more one shotting
Reduce CC
Keep the gladiator mount for the 1% to keep them happy but design pvp to be accessible for 99% of the playerbase.
Don’t design rated PVP for people that play it professionally anymore.

[Broxis-blackrock]

@anon8701015

Currently arena rating has really almost all the rewards,

you can get everything but gladiator title and mount from rbg too.

@anon8701015

and I think arena is the worst version of wow pvp to me in terms of fun

then play rbgs or random bgs or do world pvp?

@anon8701015

What is the point of making a mount, when almost nobody can get it?

what the point of making a mount when everybody can easily get it?

It brings ZERO exitement to obtain a mount that everyone easily can get. The mount being rare it what makes it special.

Why do you think people buy expensive or rare cars, paintings etc.?

@anon8701015

In raiding for example even LFR players can get the mythic sarkareth mount with a low drop chance, so it’s grindable for everyone, who raids.

this was done recently and got alot of backlash. Its a terrible idea.

@anon8701015

Because people don’t respect arena 3v3’s integrity

says who? you?

@anon8701015

and it’s also not respected as an esport.

it doesnt need to be. Its a niche game and arena in wow is a niche in a niche game. Still fun.

@anon8701015

because wow is not a competitive game

says who? WoW is a game for both casuals and tryhards. Who are you to declare what type of game wow is? I could not care less if you dont enjoy competetive games and just want to play random bgs for fun. You can even have your own rewards for that i dont care at all but why do you want to take away exclusive rewards from the competetive scene just because you are unable and unwilling to obtain them?

@anon8701015

You can do any “pvp” content you want and you get skins/wards/emotes/etc.

you are literally getting everything besides gladiator mount and titles from casual pvp too.

[Bloodmyst-silvermoon]

Also btw, if rewards get “un-tied” from the rating, every aspect of the game becomes just trolling, people will start leaving games randomly and it will not even matter, because rating just becomes a useless number right? You will get whatever toxicity exists in the 1400-1600 bracket and multiply it by x10. The same will happen in 2v2 and 3v3, and RBGs, as nobody will care about losing or winning anymore, or giving their best every game.
Overall would have terrible implications.

[anon8701015]

@Broxis-blackrock

It brings ZERO exitement to obtain a mount that everyone easily can get. The mount being rare it what makes it special.

I semi-agree with that, but I think currently it feels inobtainable for a lot of people on many levels.

@Broxis-blackrock

you are literally getting everything besides gladiator mount and titles from casual pvp too.

That’s factually not true.

@Bloodmyst-silvermoon

Also btw, if rewards get “un-tied” from the rating, every aspect of the game becomes just trolling, people will start leaving games randomly and it will not even matter, because rating just becomes a useless number right? You will get whatever toxicity exists in the 1400-1600 bracket and multiply it by x10. The same will happen in 2v2 and 3v3, and RBGs, as nobody will care about losing or winning anymore, or giving their best every game.
Overall would have terrible implications.

I agree with that somewhat, and I think maybe the solution is to find a middle ground. However, I still believe that putting the majority of pvp rewards on a seasonal renown will be better for the game.

[Cocaqt-nemesis]

If you don’t do enough dps and mechanics you can’t kill the last mythic boss and hope to get the mount … Same goes for gladiator if you are not good enough you won’t get the mount …

[anon8701015]

@Cocaqt-nemesis

If you don’t do enough dps and mechanics you can’t kill the last mythic boss and hope to get the mount

Well, you can… It drops in LFR even lol

@Cocaqt-nemesis

Same goes for gladiator if you are not good enough you won’t get the mount …

Well, I’m just asking for a change in the pvp reward system. The gladiator mount though really feels unobtainable to me and many others. There are so few people playing 3v3 and what are the odds I queue with people in arena 3v3 in LFG and get 2400 with them against established teams? In my p.o.v. it’s zero. I don’t see why arena 3v3 should have all rewards at all. It’s only discouraging and annoying to me. The problem with solo shuffle is that a lot of people don’t seem to have fun at all. Seasonal pvp renown is the best method I can think of and it fits in the game systematically. It would reward you for winning in any content, but ofc you get more reputation for winning 3v3 than winning a random BG. This will make spamming 3v3 and RBG the fastest way to fill this renown, but I think it’s better for the game to reward doing PvP in general. The renown could be extremely grindy, where you’d need to play almost all season for the mount. I think that’s a better way to reward people. They could make the weekly pvp quests in valdrakken including the world pvp one give a substantial amount of rep. I think that would make pvp very popular. Another thing they could do is simply capping the reputation daily for random BGs/Epic BGs/solo shuffle. and make the rep gain infinitely farmable for premade 3v3/2v2/rbg, because that would breath a lot of life into it and drastically increase the playerpool, so people don’t run into this issue of playing against way too skilled teams.

People here often say how solo shuffle killed 3v3/2v2. Well, that would very very likely revive those 2 brackets. I personally still find titles very cool. They should also make every ranked title “permanent”, so you keep “crimson duelist” for example

[Yojeong-kazzak]

Making it less people wanting to queue 3s because theres pretty much no rewards to rly “hunt for” except the top ones have a higher likelyhood of actually killing the bracket completely for casuals.
Making it alot more likely for premades in BGs.

But my biggest question is, why does it have to be the 3s rewards you so much want? Why cant they make more rewards for casuals instead? You still never answered that before.
You get mounts/titles throughout honor lvls.
You get mark of honor to get old season (not elite) pvp gear.

But still, I will never truly understand why people are so hardstuck with wanting to strip 3s of its rewards instead of adding more for casuals.

[anon8701015]

@Yojeong-kazzak

Why cant they make more rewards for casuals instead? You still never answered that before.

I think it’s simply unrealistic that they create a ton of rewards and cool content every season as renown. They don’t even really do that for world questers Lol. There are really a ton of things you get for rating and reaching 2400 in 3v3. It’s almost excessive. It’s insane how many rewards they put into that. I think it would make way more sense to reduce the exclusivity of 3v3 rewards, because in the end it’s more important that many people play pvp and have fun rather than this prestige ego thing. I think such a renown system could incentivize playing 3v3 a lot, if they adjust the reputation gain in a smart way, then it would draw a lot of people from solo shuffle to “farm wins” in 3v3 for reputation. A lot of people in solo shuffle only play it to get certain ratings for transmog, etc. If they now just get these things for any content they have fun doing, then they would naturally just play what is most fun, and not what is easiest to gain rating. This was it woulf also reduce boosting, and it may even increase the prestige of titles, because noone in their right mind would buy a boost for a title lol.

[Yojeong-kazzak]

You keep talking about unrealistic things but also trying to dictate what would make “3s/2s more lively” by killing it.

Tell me any reason why a casual would ever go into 3s if they dont have to at all and instead can just join bgs where they dont have to care at all?
Just like you said, you dislike 3s. youd rather play bgs. Thats the same with most likely alot of people, which will end up literally making it more dead.
If you actually fully believe stripping rewards from 3s and giving it some “band-aid fix” by giving more “rep towards renown” is going to make it more lively… I can 100% say it will make it worse.
Like I said, why would casuals ever bother with 3v3 when they dont like it, and even less when theres absolutely no reward at all for them to even get?

@anon8701015

because in the end it’s more important that many people play pvp and have fun rather than this prestige ego thing.

I know you are in the group that rather casual everything and just make it grindy instead of actually working towards it but man, there are actual people who want to do that aswell and get some kind of reward that matters. You are basing your entire argument on your way of looking at WoW, but also trying to dictate that it will make everything better when it has higher likelyhood of making things worse.

@anon8701015

I think such a renown system could incentivize playing 3v3 a lot, if they adjust the reputation gain in a smart way, then it would draw a lot of people from solo shuffle to “farm wins” in 3v3 for reputation.

No. Since majority of casuals will not want to put effort into getting rep faster when they can do it while having fun somewhere else. You live in a dream world if you think otherwise.
Have you seen any other game that has a well working 3s after they removed rewards from it?
Im not talking about a game that came out with everything done. Literally removing rewards.

@anon8701015

A lot of people in solo shuffle only play it to get certain ratings for transmog, etc. If they now just get these things for any content they have fun doing, then they would naturally just play what is most fun, and not what is easiest to gain rating.

So kill 3 brackets to make one more lively. Understandable.
The ones who actually go hard on 3s is in the minority in this game if you look towards RSS.
Making rewards easier to get through bgs would kill RSS because theres no reason for them to enter it. Less people who will care about 3s.

@anon8701015

This was it woulf also reduce boosting, and it may even increase the prestige of titles, because noone in their right mind would buy a boost for a title lol.

First, people buy boosts just to get a +15-+20, there will always be ppl who buy boost just for title aswell.
You might, like you said, reduce the boosting slightly but it wont remove it. Will be more botters for sure in BGs, already seen a few funny enough. Imagine how many ppl will try botting when all they need to do is casual BGs. Imagine how many ppl will care less in general about PvP because they dont need to care anymore.

You basically go hard on what you truly believe but you also dont think of any consequences your perfect idea could potentially lead up to.

Youll have a influx of casual BG PvPers that will most likely still die out because its not fun for them either way when they will most likely face premaders all the time. I know I will always join one if your idea would ever happen.
Since why would I ever risk myself getting into a group of less geared casuals that dont care when I can join a premade that has full gear and stomps them making them quit faster?
And if ppl join late getting the rewards will also be impossible for them.

Alot of people complain about RSS and 3s but I highly doubt they want them gone either. Its just the “WoW PvPers” mentality that go haywire quite alot due to no punishment for toxicity for so long. If youve been in the forum for the last few months you should have noticed it quite alot even on the forum.

[anon8701015]

@Yojeong-kazzak

Tell me any reason why a casual would ever go into 3s if they dont have to at all and instead can just join bgs where they dont have to care at all?

If blizzard makes it, so Reputation from BGs has a daily cap, and you mathematically can’t get enough reputation for max renown, if you don’t do arena. They can also simply adjust the reputation gains and lead people naturally into certain content without bruteforcing them like now with the reward system. They have to design it in a very smart way psychologically to create the correct incentives, but I’m sure it’s very doable. They could also cap solo shuffle daily too, and leave arena 3v3 uncapped, so if degens wanna play 20 hours a day for 6 weeks, they can only spam arena 3v3, because the others will be capped daily.
Edit: I get what you’re saying, but I don’t hate arena as much as I said. I would play 3v3, but the problem is that I see no reason to play it, when it’s the hardest and most “impossible” way to get rewards out of playing it. Like, I don’t wanna smash my head against a wall of frustration, and then get literally nothing after hours of playing. It’s simply not fun. I’d rather do a variety of content and farm my pvp reputation doing so to get cool rewards over time.