How to solve the tank and healer problem

[Razgard-draenor]

@Loi-garrosh

Would it solve the tank shortage if we would make a tank that is ridiculous easy?
Like just passively tanky but you don’t have to play around defensives with just one or two big 3 minute cooldowns.

No hate with the following comment, but I think this tank already exists more of less.

Prot warrior does more or less that. The only difference from what you are describing is that he has to deal with pressing shield block once every X seconds. This season I was playing bdk, prot pala, prot war, and the difference in difficulty was staggering.
Mind you they are tuned more or less the same with other tanks, they were just comparatively pretty easy to mitigate damage and survive.

@Magiola-darksorrow

Do we really need to give tanks virtually unlimited threat because some DPS players are just numb? Do we really need to cover for parties where they refuse to mark priority targets, and where they refuse to follow said order? Do we really need to cover for players who cannot wait for the tank to have gathered the desired mobs? Do we need to cover for parties where they refuse to interrupt? Where does this stop?

I do not think that it’s worth changing it to cover for bad players, it is changing it more because of being not rewarding in the first place as a gameplay loop. As a tank there is not really big skill expression in “keeping agro” and it is not like you feel rewarded for doing it, it just feels bad and frustrating when it does not happen. It is more of a case of “would it make the game better for everyone if you remove those frustrating moments?” kind of thing.

[Loi-garrosh]

I mean the not wanting to hold up a buff is probably a personal thing.

I don’t like playing Bm even so I love the class fantasy with your own zoo cause I don’t like to hold up three stacks of frenzy

[Woahjak-silvermoon]

Tanks in this expansion suck, the fotm one blessed by Blizzard to be the chosen one slightly less so. If you want more people to play them, make them op.

[Fablow-the-shatar]

@Razgard-draenor

For Tanks: Pre-mitigation physical damage increases your ST damage. For further clarification and impact:

• A tank that is taking regular damage from things that pose a threat to him, will deal a percentage of that damage as single target damage to its target on its auto attacks.
• It will not scale on aoe abilities, but will scale with mobs being tanked (more mobs = more damage).
• It will count pre mitigation damage, so you still want to mitigate as much damage as possible, and also will count only auto attacks and tank busters, so that you have no incentives in staying in avoidable stuff.
• Due to the damage being tied to damage taken, stacking tanks will not actually do anything for the group. You get the full benefit with a single tank, and only care about extra if the encounter needs it (for example raid).

^^ I’m not trying to be rude here, but this really doesn’t make much sense to me — and I say that as someone who has tanked since The Burning Crusade.

Damage Isn’t What Makes Tanking Fun:

As a tank, I didn’t sign up to parse — I signed up to protect. I think most veteran tanks would agree with this. We don’t particularly care about damage output in group content. Even when damage is a factor, a dead tank deals zero damage — survivability has always been the name of the game.

During BC through Mists of Pandaria, tanking felt rewarding: it was about control, strategy, and group safety. I stepped away during Legion with the rise of Mythic+ because the tanking experience shifted into something far less enjoyable. I still gravitate toward tanking when I run dungeons — but these days, I strongly prefer guild groups over PUGs, for obvious reasons…
It’s a shame really because before I was quite happy to PUG pretty much anything as tank… ToTC full raid, first 6 or so bosses of ICC 25man, all the Cataclysm dungeons… Yes even the Zandalari instances.

Back Then, the Tank Role Was Defined By:

• Threat management, mob control, and smart positioning
• Leading the group and guiding the pace
• Durability first — damage was just a bonus

^^ This was the soul of the role, and what made tanking feel fun and meaningful.

So hearing that “pre-mitigation damage boosts auto-attack damage” feels like a design that fundamentally misunderstands what tanks actually enjoy about the role. And here’s why I think it falls flat…

1. Pre-mitigation scaling is unintuitive and risky.
   It rewards damage you could have taken — a weird design that feels like rewarding you for standing in fire… but not really.
2. It doesn’t solve the real tank shortage problems.
   People don’t avoid tanking because tanks don’t do enough DPS. They avoid it because of:

• PUG pressure and leadership expectations
• Blame culture and low tolerance for mistakes
• Pull optimization and high execution in M+
• Constant need to “go go go”
  ^^ Auto-attack damage does nothing to fix this.

3. It blurs role identity.
   Tanks are supposed to feel resilient, tactical, and supportive — not just like slightly beefier DPS. If I wanted to play a self-healing, damage-dealing bruiser, I’d roll a Blood DK, that play style exists.
4. It’s passive and unimpactful.
   Auto-attacks are not engaging. Boosting them won’t feel good, even if it bumps the meters.

This suggestion — tying DPS to damage received — feels like a surface-level fix to a much deeper issue. If Blizzard wants to make tanking enjoyable and rewarding again, they need to focus on the experience, not the numbers.

Tanks don’t need more damage —
We need more respect, more agency, and better gameplay.

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

@Fablow-the-shatar

I say that as someone who has tanked since The Burning Crusade.

@Fablow-the-shatar

I stepped away during Legion with the rise of Mythic+

So you basically tanked some nhc and hc dungeons but stopped tanking when it became relevant?
I think that’s the whole point of this topic, how to make tanking more attractive in M+ since there was never lack of tanks in nhc/hc dungeons and raids.
Even tho I personally don’t see any lack of tanks in M+ myself, it’s just that everyone wants meta for no reason.

[Razgard-draenor]

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

I think that’s the whole point of this topic, how to make tanking more attractive in M+ since there was never lack of tanks in nhc/hc dungeons and raids.

Sorry but just to clarify that this is not true. Throughout the lifetime of wow, tanks and healers were always in short supply. All the way back in tbc when people were spamming LFG chat for tanks, and up to the release of lfg tool and the queue difference between dps and tank/healers.

Not that it changes much in the discussion, just that m+ did not change much the tank/healer participation in the game.

[Fablow-the-shatar]

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

So you basically tanked some nhc and hc dungeons but stopped tanking when it became relevant?

^^ Fair point — perhaps I should clarify.

I do not particularly enjoy Mythic+ content, mainly because I don’t enjoy timed dungeon formats. The idea of zerging through a dungeon with a rocket strapped to your backside, memorizing optimal routes and skips… that’s just not the kind of experience I find engaging in dungeon content.

As a result, my participation in Mythic+ has been fairly minimal. I’ve dabbled — did a few pushes during BFA — but in all honesty, I didn’t enjoy it all that much, even in guild runs… so the thought of Pugging was an absolute no for me.

On the other hand, Cataclysm dungeons were absolutely my jam. I lived in those — tight pulls, big mechanics, and a genuine sense of danger. That was the kind of tanking that felt exciting and rewarding to me.

[Korikasai-mirage-raceway]

@Beerwolf-sunstrider

Issue isn’t how tanks or healers are, it’s the fact people don’t want to play them as they have more responsibility. Has been since the very beginning

The reason i refuse to play tank in M+

It’s just too much for me

[Galander-aerie-peak (Galander)]

There are plenty of people playing tanks and healers - they just aren’t pugging.

Reason for that isn’t mechanics or DPS numbers. It’s other players treating them like absolute garbage. The absolute insane demands of expecting tanks to know every dungeon/raid like the back of their hand with perfect routes and convoluted skips 3 seconds after its release. The DPS standing in fire then yells at the healer for not healing them. etc etc.

So the tanks and healers play with their friends and guildies who treat them like human beings instead.

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

@Razgard-draenor

Sorry but just to clarify that this is not true. Throughout the lifetime of wow, tanks and healers were always in short supply.

Not really. There always been tanks and healers at all times, more than enough. They simply just started to ask for gold for their services. Some groups, without tank/heal, wanted to lock items, and some tanks/heals avoided those groups. That does not mean there was lack of tanks/heals tho.
And with introduction of dungeon finder it was even easier to find tanks/heals.

Right now if you open 16-20 M+, the majority of groups has tank and/or healer in their group.
It’s not that tank/healers are lacking, it’s just the fact that resikeys splitted the player base quite a lot. People hyped resikeys but never understood the consequences that come with it.

Another argument that could be made is that too many groups demand meta for no reason too often.

[Sazandora-nagrand]

As someone who has played every role, tanks and healers do not need to do more damage. As a tank all I want is more simple dungeon routes so I don’t have to stress over whether my group is going to scream at me for not having watched a billion videos on whatever is the optimal route through a normal dungeon. As a healer I do not want adds spamming insane AoE or interruptible insta-killers.
Fixing all of these would make me want to play tank/healer more often, when I don’t have to worry about getting kicked for not knowing the “right” way or not being fast enough to react to ridiculous damage spikes hitting the entire group at once.

[Fablow-the-shatar]

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

There always been tanks and healers at all times, more than enough.

^^ That hasn’t really been my experience, especially in the PUG scene —But then I rarely play on mega populated servers, which could be a factor.

In nearly every expansion up to Warlords of Draenor — before the population plummeted — I could queue as a tank at almost any time of day and get instant pops, while DPS often waited 15–20 minutes or more.

I’d frequently log in to whispers from people I’d grouped with days earlier, begging me to tank because they’d either been waiting forever or were stuck with tanks who couldn’t handle mechanics — Ozruk the Impaler in Stonecore comes to mind. That boss chewed through a lot of unprepared tanks.

The same thing happened in Classic WoW (2019) and even on private servers. I’d get random whispers while leveling on my Warrior or Priest asking me to tank or heal — even if I was undergeared, underleveled, or inexperienced — simply because they’d been searching for so long.

[Charmeíne-draenor (Charmeíne)]

There is no saving it. Too many people not wanting to take on the responsibility of playing a tank. Or lack the skills needed to play an healer in modern WoW.

Not that I blame them. You have to be a sadomasochist to play healer in M+.

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

@Fablow-the-shatar

^^ That hasn’t really been my experience, especially in the PUG scene —But then I rarely play on mega populated servers, which could be a factor.

In nearly every expansion up to Warlords of Draenor — before the population plummeted — I could queue as a tank at almost any time of day and get instant pops, while DPS often waited 15–20 minutes or more.

Obviously there was always more DDs than tanks and heals, that’s not new.
Pre dungeon finder you had to communicate with people and got easy in groups, especially once people knew you. If you were known as a bad dps player or simply unknown, then you had to wait. That’s nothing special nor new.

@Fablow-the-shatar

The same thing happened in Classic WoW (2019) and even on private servers.

Classic WoW has nothing to do with WoW from back in the days, nor retail. And especially not private servers.

@Fablow-the-shatar

even if I was undergeared, underleveled, or inexperienced — simply because they’d been searching for so long.

You just have some nostalgia and selective memory going on.
Has nothing to do with today’s reality. Nobody is waiting for tanks and heals long, unless in low content, usually bad players themselves. The higher you go, the harder it is actually to find good dps players. As I said before, there were over 80% of groups who already had a tank and/or a healer, good dps was missing.

Especially this season I’d argue tanking is extremely easy while still quite fun meanwhile for healers you don’t really have an option outside of Disc and Rsham to play and there is not much to heal. The only problem is that you rely on good dps players since you can’t carry in high M+ like you could carry back then when HC was the hardest dungeon version, which actually was always laughably easy by any standards.

[Razgard-draenor]

Ok so after 2 days, a recap of the replies:

21 unique persons gave their reason for not playing tank/healers and the following are the results:

• 9 of them had a problem with the responsibility those roles had.
• 8 of them identified social backlash and blame as a problem when failure occurred.
• 11 shared that they view barrier to entry as a problem (either mechanical with difficult specs, or knowledge based with too much information with the dungeons).
• 4 people had a problem with too many healing checks.
• 2 people had the opposite problem with dungeons needing more healing checks.
• One person identified homogenization as a main issue.

From those 21 people 40.1% of them had reached 2k rating this season.

The above is an attempt to quantify what people think is the main issue. In replies where people identified multiple issues, I tried to record them all, and some assumptions were made in trying to interpret their positions (so of course the stats are not perfect). The 2k rating cutoff was introduced in order to differentiate the positions of the people giving the reasons why they were not playing, or giving the reasons they identified while playing.

Replies that did find anything wrong with the game, or not giving any solutions/opinions were ignored (since too many assumptions would need to be made and I did not want to misinterpret their opinions).

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

And what is your conclusion? Since there is no lack of tank/heals in higher keys, what do you conclude why there is a lack (if there is) of tanks/heals in lower keys?

[Razgard-draenor]

I did not do that to get any conclusion. My opinion still remains that the reason tanks and healers would be way more popular if they were capable of way more passive damage while not changing more of their rotation.

The reason I compiled the responses was to get a better idea of where the people were coming from and what kind of gripes people had. Keep in mind it is just 20 replies, not a grand survey.

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

From my experience, where tanks did a lot of damage, like in BfA (don’t remember which season) it created a lot of toxicity, especially in the low keys, basically where I assume you think the tanks and heals are lacking.
I don’t think I ever experienced more tanks leaving the group mid run when I was doing my weekly with pugs, because they outdamaged some dps players.

[Fablow-the-shatar]

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

There always been tanks and healers at all times, more than enough.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

Obviously there was always more DDs than tanks and heals, that’s not new.

^^ That’s kind of a contradiction — but let’s set that aside for now…

The post is titled “How to solve the tank and healer problem,” and unless I’ve completely misunderstood, when people talk about “the tanking problem,” they’re generally referring to the lack of tanks — a perceived shortage. That’s the context I was responding to.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

There was never a lack of tanks in nhc/hc dungeons and raids.

^^ My previous reply was addressing that exact claim. Yes, there absolutely were tank shortages pre-Mythic+ — during TBC, Wrath, Cata, and MoP.

I could queue for a random dungeon at pretty much any time of day (within reason), and at almost any level — whether for endgame heroics or leveling dungeons (especially during Cataclysm’s launch) — and I’d get an instant queue as a tank. The longest I ever waited was maybe two or three minutes.

It’s also worth mentioning that the player base was significantly larger back then — around 12 million active subscriptions at the end of Wrath and during Cataclysm’s initial launch. Considering the active population is much lower now, and split across multiple versions of the game (Retail, Classic, Season of Discovery, and soon Legion Remix), I doubt the tank shortage has improved much.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

Pre dungeon finder you had to communicate with people and got easy in groups, especially once people knew you.

^^ Sure, if you knew people who were active and played at similar times to you, then great — that was my approach too. After a smooth, successful dungeon run, I’d usually add the healer to my friends list (and vice versa).

But let’s not pretend that the /4 Looking For Group chat wasn’t often dominated by people searching for tanks and/or healers — sometimes for 20 minutes or more — while they tried to assemble a group.

Most of what I was describing was from Wrath onwards, once the LFG auto-grouping tool was introduced. As a tank, I’d get pretty much instant queues.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

You just have some nostalgia and selective memory going on.

^^ Yeah, I have fond memories of previous expansions — but who doesn’t? If you want to dismiss my points by chalking it up to nostalgia instead of engaging with what I actually said, that’s your prerogative.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

Nobody is waiting for tanks and heals long, unless in low content, usually bad players themselves.

^^ Assuming you’re right — and to be fair, I don’t really push Mythic+ these days (not since my spurt pushing +20s back in BFA) — isn’t that part of the problem? Players potentially waiting on tanks and healers for lower difficulty content?

Generally speaking, as you rise through the ranks and start tackling more difficult content, doesn’t the overall player pool shrink? Fewer people are doing that content — so logically, shouldn’t it be the other way around?

Sure, you’re more likely to run into higher quality players, but there are also fewer of them. So it stands to reason that finding tanks or healers — or any specific role for that matter — might actually become more difficult, not less.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

Especially this season I’d argue tanking is extremely easy.

@Ðaylen-the-maelstrom

The only problem is that you rely on good DPS players, since you can’t carry in high M+ like you could back when HC was the hardest dungeon version — which actually was always laughably easy by any standards.

^^ Okay… I’m not sure what that proves exactly. You seem very fixated on difficulty.

Personally, I play for fun first and foremost. If I’m having fun and being challenged, then great. But if I’m not having fun, even if the content is challenging — now we’ve got a problem.

I’d much rather enjoy myself in so-called “easy” content than slog through something tough with no pay off or enjoyment.

But hey, what do I know… I’m just a scrub with rose tinted googles.

---

Edit — Yikes, accidently double post when I was just traying to make an edit. deleted one.

[Ðaylen-the-maelstrom]

@Fablow-the-shatar

^^ That’s kind of a contradiction — but let’s set that aside for now…

Not really, obviously you don’t have 1:1 tanks/heals and dps, also because you don’t need that. They are still more than enough tho.

@Fablow-the-shatar

It’s also worth mentioning that the player base was significantly larger back then — around 12 million active subscriptions at the end of Wrath and during Cataclysm’s initial launch

That’s true but it didn’t matter. Back then you were locked with a few thousand people on the same server. Now you have literally whole EU to play with.

@Fablow-the-shatar

I doubt the tank shortage has improved much.

Well, log in and look for yourself. Around 85-90% of groups have tank/and or healer at 16-20 key range.
What does it tell us? Resikeys split the playerbase and less dedicated players are not willing to tank/heal low keys There are many reasons for that, one is toxicity because low content is the most toxic environment.

@Fablow-the-shatar

But let’s not pretend that the /4 Looking For Group chat wasn’t often dominated by people searching for tanks and/or healers — sometimes for 20 minutes or more — while they tried to assemble a group.

Of course it was not. It was /2 trade
But did you see how many were playing? Could argue that you had 1000 groups playing and 3 groups spamming the trade chat that would not be a real shortage.

@Fablow-the-shatar

Yeah, I have fond memories of previous expansions — but who doesn’t?

The issue is that the memory is usually false. You think it was much better when it was not. I was so certain that Cata was the best experience for me, when Cata Classic came out I got my reality check. It was horrible in every single aspect compared to retail.

@Fablow-the-shatar

isn’t that part of the problem? Players potentially waiting on tanks and healers for lower difficulty content?

Now since that’s not happening in “high difficulty content” you should ask yourself why that is. Is the role the problem or the class design or the players in that content?
I had a few 10s and 12s run today, I absolutely understand why people rather wait 10+ mins for more experienced players than playing with players on their level. If you have 5 people where nobody gives a f and is “just chilling” so nobody really plays the easiest mechanics possible and you end up not timing the key then ye…
You can’t fix a role or a class if the players and their attitude are the problem.

@Fablow-the-shatar

Okay… I’m not sure what that proves exactly. You seem very fixated on difficulty.

Because difficulty matters.

@Fablow-the-shatar

Personally, I play for fun first and foremost. If I’m having fun and being challenged, then great. But if I’m not having fun, even if the content is challenging — now we’ve got a problem.

And the reality is: the content is not challenging and everyone is “playing for fun” and failing the easiest mechanics. They sabotage themselves and the result is that nobody wants to tank or heal that mess.
Buffing tanks/heals makes no sense in order to please people who are not even willing to press a few buttons. At this point just give them free vault for logging in.