Would you sit for 1 day, or 7h straight or whatever in a key just to try to push one key?
Maybe im wrong, but i would not and im pretty sure biggest part of the community neither.
Players pushing will defnitely spend 5+ hours in a dungeon if thatâs what it takes to grab a title, or be the worlds first.
Itâs trash design, and shouldnât be implemented. Let skill be the deciding factor rather than patience.
To add: What you want (m+ without a timer) already exists. Itâs the âCompletionâ label. Just use that and then ignore the timer, you get all the rewards barring slightly less crests for failing anyway.
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What we called progression before everyone got âADHDâ.
Spoiler: âThe biggest part of the communityâ doesnât play M+.
Well, the biggest part of the community believe that they need meta comp to clear a 10 or 12. If meta is a factor now, why would it not be a factor in that case?
Problem is not that groups would stay 5 hours to wait for bl in every pull. Real problem is that if the timer does not matter, then dps does not matter. In that world, why do you even need dps? You can bring more tanks, and because you bring tanks, you also can shave off healers (since more tanks have enough off healing to survive anything).
- In dungeons, the mobs deals heavy melee damage, this is why you need tanks that can mitigate damage.
- In dungeons, there are many random abilities that deal group damage, this is why you need a healer to heal this damage.
- In dungeons, you have a timer in order to complete the dungeon, this is why you need dps in order to finish the run fast.
If you remove any one of those mechanics in the dungeons, you just remove the need to have that specific role.
I will not discuss that the myt+ ecosystem is a fragile one, thats why so much âdramaâ and discord walls arguing how -x- class would deal with better encounters and so onâŠ
Part of the meta need comes from a dead end mechanic, dps checks , tanksbusters, inmunity rotations, warlock portals and more, if you add to all that a time mechanic, that means all the prior checks must be done for the best classes that bring those utilities, therefore others options goes away, and thats not healthy.
You wanna break the meta mentality? you have to make players notice that other options are a thing too, so either you remove the timer or change drastically the dungeon design to take other paths without the need to reroll to nelf or do thousand of skips.
Nor corridors dungs or timers will improve in the future the state of the myt+, making that a big entrance wall for tanks (news and rerolls).
You still have not answered, in a world of infinite scaling difficulty, where there are no timers, what is the role of a damage dealer? Why bring a dps when you can bring a tank that has 10x its survivability.
Blizzard needs to make better looking shields to use, that will make people go âoh wow I wanna look cool using that!â
Well that would certainly make me demand a sword and board DPS spec more.
But it wouldnât make me want to tank 
Your thought process is flawed. Let me ask you something. If Blizzard all of a sudden makes a huge mistake and 1 tank is 40% more powerful than the rest, the results are the same than if it was only 1% stronger than the rest? Is that what you are claiming?
There is a reason why 90% of the players in the top 2000 keys play with VDH. Its not just coincidence, nor its a 1% difference.
You were the one that wanted to use ONE comp that dosent use VDH as proof that VDH is OK. So when I do the same, all of a sudden its a weak argument?
Whatâs your deal here?
Well⊠a +20 back in the day was equivalent to a +10. So of course that rot fights seemed easy for you⊠If you would have tried them on +28 like I did, you would not have the same opinion.
That is the thing. When you have zero empathy and cant understand that other people find other things challenging all your arguments fall apart.
Like I said. It dosent matter what your opinion is. Or mine. Because we alone cant carry the whole M+ system on our own. We need players. We need people to play.
And if people dont like to play healers/tanks because of bursty damage, then you have to get rid of it. Simple as that. And then find other ways to challenge players (yes, I said CHALLENGE, not nerf). I would like to underline this last part. Because I insist, I am NOT saying that we need to give hand-outs. Im saying the oposite.
You said right now M+ is heavily scripted and its OK. An automated ârotationâ is just the same thing. Or you think that kicking things and poping CDs when the DBM tells you to is somehow any different?
No. That is not what happened. You missed the point entirely.
S1 of TWW was a horrible season because you had dungeon modifiers (% damage) stacked one on top of the other. On a 10+ specifically you had +30% boss/trash damage increase in a single key level. Because a +10 is when you had tyrannical + fortified affixes at the same time. And you had similar problems on a +7 and a +12.
And what happened is that people ping-ponged between timing a +9 and depleting a +10. In my case, it was timing a +11 and depleting a +12.
So blizzards idea of âchallengeâ was to keep people ping-ponging the same key-level for 6 months. So many people quit.
Which proves my point. You can make things hard and challenging with out having to make things frustrating. People donât like to tank/heal because its frustrating. Not because its challenging. And removing frustrating mechanics dosent imply making things easy or giving out hand-outs.
You dont technically need any addons even for a +22. But as you correctly pointed out, tunning your graphic settings improves performance. And if you dont do it, you shoot yourself in the foot. As you also correctly pointed out.
Well its the same concept with addons and UI enhancements. If you dont do it, you shoot yourself in the foot. Because the performance boost it gives you its too big. At ANY key level you play in.
Some performance boost with these addons is OK. But too much performance (as it is today) and it becomes ridiculous. Which is my point.
Thereâs no patch where bear would get lower than B tier. Itâs mathematically not possible.
Well, some specâs. Resto druid and Holy Priest CDs are weak but their basic healing is high.
Protection Warrior and Brewmaster Monk CDs are also weak, but they have incredible standard mitigation.
Thatâs correct, but as it seems, thereâs no shortage of tank and healers at high(er)-end content, thereâs shortage on keys 2-7, for example.
And at those level, any CD usage is optional.
Oh god no, the death of WoW, right there.
Itâs because most people in this world do not want to play role where decisions kill others.
Only few people can do that thatâs why tanking and healing is not that popular.
Also as a tank and healer you need to be aware not only you and your position but with position of everyone else that is like having eyes on multiple places at one time. It is a pressure.
But if you can do it and do it properly there is no better feeling .
Yes it actually feels great to be a tank.
I just donât like how the tanks are played so I donât do it.
They all need to hold up some short duration buff as mitigation.
I donât even like that on DPS specs like BM
In the higher tiers, yes. It also affects lower tiers a lot, because players are incredibly stupid and worship tier list from streamers like the holy bible. A spec being doesnât mean itâs by far superior than the others, just that itâs somewhat better within certain contexts.
Idk what the difference is, but if it was truly astonoshing you wouldnât see off-meta comps doing the same keys as meta comps do.
It can be more or less scripted, yes. If you reduce m+ to being mangeable with OBR itâs very easily managed, but as it is now you have more things within the script to follow, which is usually too hard and causes most players to play reactively sometimes. Plus, anyone blindly following DBM is just playing the lower tiers of m+ where you can just W through it all anyway.
It was great. Reward range keys were basically free (even though they had some challenge for a few people), and keys beyond reward range actually posed a threat. It made it harder for players to get carried into keys beyond 12s, whereas now there isnât an actual wall to climb to get past all the carried players, which makes keys much more frustrating when you find players in 17s who doesnât know mechanics.
Stop blaming tanks and healers for all your problems if you want more tanks, heck start complimenting them instead even if its a lie, give them motivation to keep going and they will learn and improve on their own, and focus on your own mistakes or perhaps just take the blame yourself so your group will stop fighting each other, because most groups start failing once they start fighting each other instead of helping each other.
tuning tanks and healers dps down, fixing roles prior key start, making tanks more in charge of ccs and adding more healing mechanics to avoid having healers afking mid combat.
maybe im wrong, just my pov of being a non 0.1% title chaser ( i respect btw those who do that), but again, sitting 5h for 1 key is something i still only the 0.1 would do.
I just think that adding more pressure and forcing tanks to deal with elements that could be done for the others 4 in the party would release the lack of tanks, like you say, why would you invite 3 dps when u can add 3 tanks that does dmg, cc, know routes, hav the mentality and are more durable just for being tanks.
The problem in those key levels is that maybe the 1 tank buster wont kill you. But it leaves you at 20% and the next 2/3 white hits will kill you.
That is why you have to press Shield Wall. And that is what I mean by degenerate bursty damage.
For healers its the same idea. Technically you dont need CDs. But if you dont use them properly, you either fall behind and 1 random fireball kills people, and/or you go oom and people die.
Why?
Maybe I was a bit too harsh. Deleting no. Nerfing, yes.
I have heard that statement so many times that it makes me thing that YOU worship some streamers. Just different ones. Because its utterly false what you say.
How far the âmeta compâ trickles down to lower key-levels depends entirely on the power of said comp. If the advantage is very big, then it trickles down to lower and lower keys. If the advantage is small, then it dosent.
Compare S1 to S2 of DF if you dont believe me.
I told you what the difference is. And dont be so stubborn.
It is not the same to say: 50% of all groups have a different tank than VDH, than to say 1/200 (0.5%) of groups have a different tank than VDH.
Its not the same statement. And its not that hard to understand why.
If it was this easy you would not have a tank/healer shortage dont you think? Your claims have to match reality to be true.
It was not great. You know why? Because you had nobody to play with. Simple as that. No people to play. No M+.
So it dosent matter what your personal opinion on the rewards is.
I am talking from first hand experience: at +7 Tyrannical, the hardest hitting tank-buster is Floodgate 3rd boss and it wouldnât drop you to 50% even. At 640 item level, which is the minimum this season. You can get to 640 on a fresh character in 1.5-2 hours.
The problem for healers is that their healing requirements doesnât actually depends on them. If you play with people who play like they are on +17,then you can afk your way through a +7.
If they stand in everything, donât use pots, heals or defensives and donât interrupt, then yes, you will need your healing CDs.
Because they feel good. Thatâs all. It feels good to be powerful for short period of time.
âBut Nellja, if we tune the classes right, the power will be there, just outside the Cooldowns.â
No, it wonât be. It will be the new normal damage.
What are you even talking about?
I done a floodgate +2 on my prot paladin early in the season and I almost died at last boss from the punch because I didnât expect it to do so much damage because it barely moved my druids hp compared to my paladin.
The thunder punch deals 7.3 million damage instantly and then ticks for 1.7 million damage every second for 4 seconds and thatâs on m0, 14 million damage.