I just reread Aaron Rosenberg's Beyond the Dark Portal

Lore Story
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Zaroa, most of these had nothing to do with a novel set between Stormwind, Kul Tiras, and Zandalar. It would be like reading Shadows of The Horde and complaining that Vol’jin never went to Gnomregan to find out if it had been reclaimed yet. One novel can only cover so much, and naturally it will primarily cover issues revolving around the locations it is set within.

The novel itself does not make FlynnShaw and important plot point or anything over shadowing; the backlash and complaints on twitter/the forums, as well as the songs of praise, are what did. People’s responses are not something an author can control, and I will say again, Mathias Shaw and Flynn Fairwind are not the main characters of the book, and nor does their relationship overshadow any significant plot elements.

Why complain about Flynn and Mathias, and not Zekhan? Anduin? Those two characters take up far more of the narrative. If your issue is with the story being too character-driven, it baffles me why you choose to target the two with the least amount of presence as opposed to the two with far more.

Both are equally as important to creating a living and believable world. Madeline Roux is a writer with a background in horror, a genre that frequently focuses on characters and their personas - she wasn’t chosen at random, she was chosen because Blizzard knew what sort of book they wanted to sell and what she of all writers they had available is good at.

Worlds exist beyond the shattering cataclysmic events and the plot catalysts; they also need actual characters within them with motivations that make sense and personalities that keep them compelling. The fact that both of these stories exist for you shows that we are not trading one for the other; we are having both.

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It proves that far from having any control over whats written, Blizzard usually tells writers to fill the space that goes from point A to point B (guess that with some additional indications regarding the plot elements that must prevail along the way).

And the rest, is left entirely up to how the writer wants to tackle his/her task.

That’s one of the reaons why someone that has kept up with the novels, can instantly identify when certain characters are written by one writer or another. Or why we have widely different tones depending on who is tackling the task (just compare Knaak, with Golden, or Roux with Brooks).

The above, for good or ill, helps readers pinpoint exactly the flaws or virtues of each writer.

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I’d much rather have character-driven narratives than self-inserts dominating the plots. Knaak was heavily scrutinized back in the day, especially in the Story forums, and I find it hilarious that people harken back to him of all people as an example of good Warcraft fiction.

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/offtop
I still have a bit of internal “why” moment at some depictions of Sally Whitemane in We Ride Forth. Felt like the whole idea of undead+light was totally lost, and without it - some of what seemingly should’ve been there.

Oh well, so much for fact checking. I guess the devs had more iprortant things to do at the time.

At the very least it was a reasonably good side story. I don’t mind seeing /supporting those.

gl hf

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That’s my point, really. BFA was an atrocious story lore-wise because the characters were so inconsistent and often had their motivations all over the place. Having smaller stories and novels that flesh out these characters is important to having a fantasy universe where we actually give a damn about who is doing what and who these characters are. Characters should exist outside of their quest text.

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It’s nice to have some extra stories, but with all key events being shown in the game.

I’m in a double mind about that specific though. Because on one hand, it’s rather good and if the intention was to show the story from the perspective of Darion, it would be easy to recommend.

On the other hand there is Sally Whitemane. And Light+undead is a very special topic which was poorly covered in the game so far, although it has extra info about in the outside sources. Which has like 0 presence when the author tried to tell something from her point of view. It wasn’t even “hit or miss”. In this small section it was a total miss which I personally brush aside by speculating that the whole thing is Mograine point of view.

gl hf

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False. Like, absolutely so.

  • Rokhan and Zekhan play a major role----> Should’ve addressed Darkspear leadership issues back in Legion/BfA.

  • Calia and Voss are presented as part of the council----> Should’ve expanded lore regarding the Forsaken leadership vacuum.

  • Thrall and Horde members visit Tyrande and the NEs in Hyjal----> Why not Ashenvale? What’s been going on there?

  • Turalyon and Alleria look for Sylvanas in Arathi, and venture close to Hillsbrad—>They ride past Gilneas (Genn also plays a big role regarding how to tackle the armistice).

And so on.

To ignore some of these, someone would probably require and ACTIVE effort.

People will note whatever spotlight they have, if it comes in detriment of a whole bunch of issues that are left ignored. Comparatively, 15% of a whole is a lot more than 0%.
List above.

One takes his time to expand on the setting by giving insight regarding what happened with a particular collective while they were out of the spotlight, literally filling the empty spaces such as what they were up to, and the posture regarding contemporary events. It even directly ties with the ingame experience and cinematics.

The other one spends her time with a side story, with no particular bearing to the setting, while also ignoring (or failing to address) the obvious issues surrounding the scenario she decided to use as framework for said story (How are the Broken Isles faring after the Legion invasion, what do they think about the Horde, how is their relation with the druids of Valsharah, the Moonguard, or the HM Tauren,…).

Yeah, these stories perfectly serve to exemplify how some authors are willing to expand on relevant information regarding the setting, while others would rather focus on tangential bits that are pushed way past the importance they should’ve had.
And this phenomenon is what often bothers people (or gets them speculating regarding the motivation for acting in such way), as often you’d need an active effort to force down the issues that would surface naturally when dealing in certain parts of the setting.

Travelling to Suramar but failing to addres their posture regarding Teldrassil, or writting about Rokhan, and not addressing the vacuum his people have had since Legion, takes a conscious sort of overlooking.

I find way more hilarious when people try to build arguments out of predicaments not mentioned in the thread.

PS:

Maybe people focused way to much on her parallels with Sir Zeliek. The angle Brooks gave her seemed to stir to a more coldhearted “female dog” archetype.

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People - not really. I did not see anybody at all here, or on us forums talking about that parallel. It’s just me being “but… but why?..” kind of person. Not sure if it’s a good idea.

gl hf

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There is no conspiracy or agenda because a particular author did not write the book you wanted them to write. This is a pretty meek argument against Roux when you can direct the same ire against any Warcraft novelist who focuses on one aspect of the lore over another; it is a big universe, and not everything can be addressed in one fell swoop. And, again, the important plot elements were given to Maddie ahead of time, because I imagine a contract author as herself wouldn’t have had the immense Warcraft knowledge to be able to address every single lore inconsistency since Legion. She is not a narrative designer or quest designer; she is a commissioned author, who likely had to research an awful lot about Warcraft to get the gig.

I ask you again; why Flynn and Shaw? Why them? Why the two with so little book commitment? It’s very much coming across as your own agenda to specifically target these two characters as if their romance was a conspiracy/agenda against the setting. I’ve told you already: the game has been been pushing towards diversity for a while now, and the quest designer for Flynn Fairwind confirmed he was always intended to be bisexual. (https://twitter.com/_DonAdams/status/1280622957442686976)

It’s apples and oranges that have very little to do with the author in question and more to do with the ones who hired them and the narrative/genre they wanted to tell. They wouldn’t hire, say, Chris Metzen to publish a novel about love and romance - nor would they hire Roux to write about world-building and plot developments, when her specialty is characterization.

Arguing this ahead from its face value as if it has an anti-straight agenda when the author is a straight white woman is why your arguments aren’t exactly holding much weight. Diversity is not always a conspiracy; queer people makeup a large portion of the modern world’s population (over a quarter of my own generation), and so it is naturally a market Blizzard would tap into.

For the record:
Arguing that Shadow’s Rising was disappointing because it was character-driven instead of being about filling in some glaring lore holes? A fine position to hold.
Arguing that Shadow’s Rising is a liberal conspiracy to push a gay agenda? Just a bit silly.

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Just a minor side note. Having an intention of something does not (sadly) mean that the game was successful at being a medium to express said intention.

Sometimes it’s interesting to try new things. But not everybody would volunteer to go out of the “comfort zone” (assuming there is one).

gl hf

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Flynn always came across as pansexual when I was questing in BFA, tbh. He struck me as a Captain Jack from Doctor Who sort, who would flirt with anyone and anything. I wasn’t surprised when he ended up with Shaw, and nor did I feel like it was out of character. Each to their own, obviously; but I don’t think a bi character having a crush on a woman means they failed at being believably bisexual.

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Well, I barely did any Tiragarde Sound quests (only the bare minimum to unlock the world quests), so I do not have a personal opinion. It was just a side note that sometimes the devs claim that they wanted something, but when I read what the players have to say, I sometimes see that the game could not present some things in a way that would make people get the idea.

Was it the case with Flynn - can’t really say, majority of comment on the topic I saw on us, ru, eu forums and reddit were along the line of “whatever”. The book was a breath of fresh air because blizz decided to put the relevant story events into the game instead of leaving them as book exclusive and this thing alone overshadows most of the moments that could be questionable in the book itself.

Me being picky about some things is just me trying to look more clever than I am, that’s not too relevant. Just maybe somebody would find another perspective interesting. Or not - who knows.

gl hf

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Who said anything about conspiracy?

And regarding whether there is an agenda, apparently this is up to debate.

As i said, it takes actual active effort to ignore plot defining issues and push instead stuff that in comparison is absolutely insignificant.
So there must be some motivation behind it.

And what said motivation may be, can indeed be interpreted as some writer following on a particular agenda (be it because corporate demands, or his/her own preferences).

Regardless of which one it is, forcefully opting to ignore major stuff, and divert the attention instead to the minor one, cannot be anything other than intentional (as i’m assuming that those involved have a grasp regarding what’s of relevance in the setting and what is not).

Those who believe that knowing who Flynn bangs is more important than addressing the neglected state of the Worgen/Darkspear lore that affects hundreds of characters,…well. Won’t elaborate any further

Because they are the example of how a romantic subplot was furthered in a novel that could’ve and should’ve tackled other issues.

Just as LTT and Thallyssra’s romance, took the entirety of a short story that could’ve tackled the Broken Isles situation much like the Horsemen one did with the Ebon Blade.

It’s but an example of a plot choice that makes people wonder why on earth are writers wasting their time with it, when there are so many important things in such an awful state.

These stories came from the authors themselves. Roux took special pride in the fact that she had presented it to Blizzard, and that it had been accepted.
So of course they’d serve to measure how each of them sets their priorities.

Good that i’m not arguing either.

Shadows Rising was a disappointing piece of narrative because it treated superfluosly pressing matters, and at times focused on stuff that should’ve come second (or third), to a wide range of issues that the writer willingly chose to overlook.

Its a novel that will raise lots of eyebrows, given that it presents a sample where the writers spends notable effort (when compared to the absolute neglect of other issues) trying to highlight lore aspects such as romance, while actively choosing to ignore major ones.

And yes, with Shadows Rising people will wonder if it all comes as part of an active drive to try and normalise homosexual relations in the game. Even if it comes at expenses of ignoring other lore issues far more pressing for the setting.
Criticising it for doing such.

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No, there does not need to be motivation behind it, because the neglect of these aspects of the lore being intentional is your opinion. Roux did not go out on twitter and say, “I ignored XYZ because I wanted to write a gay fanfic”; that is just your opinion and theory. Sometimes certain things are just not in the narrative an author wants to tell, and that’s fine. No one novel can cover all of the features you want addressed, and it addressed a plethora of its own subjects.

Again, theory. No one was forced to do anything.

Because the Warcraft universe is more than just its zones and Big Bads. It is also about characters and their relations, and has been since the start. Jaina has been paired with every male protagonist under the sun at this point - complaining about it now is redundant. It is not wasting time to flesh out the setting. Worldbuilding matters.

No, Zaroa, that is not the novel’s purpose and never was. This logic is like saying The Ardenweald campaign was about pushing a gay agenda because it featured two gay characters for one questline. I can guarantee you would not be making these arguments if the one line of them kissing wasn’t in it; and that single line does not sacrifice any other aspect of the lore that could have been explored.

Romance is not a main point of the book, and at this point I’m questioning if you even read it when you make claims like that. The book is about Anduin, Zekhan, Talanji foremost - with some scenes dedicated to Flynn and Shaw, which result in a kiss. That’s it. Books are not the Law of Alchemy; you must not always sacrifice one thing for another.

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Turning a blind eye, and dodging the obvious plot points of a setting, requires active effort.
And is the sort of action that creates criticism, specially if the author in question uses his chance to direct the spotlight, to highlight issues that are insignificant when compared to the ones being sidelined.

Also, given the nature of the topic highlighted, as well as the authors pose, people will obviously take as following an additional drive.
Assuming they won’t, given the matter at hand, is disingenuous.

Highlighting who Flynn is banging, while opting to ignore other issues far more urgent of the setting, is indeed wasting the chance to do so.

Again, the comparison between Brooks and Roux with the intro short stories for SL.
One fleshes out relevant lore info regarding plot agents, the other spends several pages on a tangential aspect with no bearing to the story, that somehow manages to dodge important features that would be affecting said setting.

Hiring writers to expand on the setting only works if they manage to do so.

Don’t blame people if they assume some additional agenda when they feel as if these writers are consciously opting not to do so, and instead try to focus elsewhere.

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For the last time: one line. You have worked yourself up over one line. The Flynn and Shaw scenes were not entirely about romance; every single scene served a plot purpose, since they were actively on a mission. Typing out one line of dialogue/action does not require so much effort that it prevents them writing anything else. My brother is an author and I can very much tell you that novels are not written with the thought that writing one thing will cost them another.

Madeline Roux is not the lead narrative designer, she is a single contract author who could very well only know as much about the Warcraft lore as was told to her when taking the commission. It is not an active act of ignorance of her part to focus on one thing over another, when the things you are listing are either completely out of the novel’s scope, or overall completely unrelated to the plot (especially when this novel was about the state of the Horde Council, and confirmed Rokhan’s leadership). The novel led directly into the pre-patch concerning Sylvanas and Nathandos, so your argument that the plot meandered around characters snogging with zero plot/developments is plainly untrue. It answered plenty of narrative questions; no one book will answer every single one.

I will definitely scrutinize conspiracy theorists.

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Doubt that it qualifies as conspiracy theory, if someone notes when the author hired to tackle a particular lore gap, would rather focus his/her work on insignificant aspects over major stuff hard to miss.

Or the company’s reason to have it be that way, if the novel theme is indeed endorsed and encouraged to be tackled in such way from way up.

She boasts about being a veteran player with keen interest in the game’s story.
So yeah, overlooking the consequences of BfA and Legion, is something rather hard to do for an averge (let alone veteran) WoW player.

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The novel expanded on the state of Kul Tiras, Zandalar, The Horde Council, Anduin’s position as king, the consequences of Teldrassil, the consequences of Undercity, who leads what faction in said Horde Council, what Sylvanas was up to after the end of BFA - it covered a lot, Zaroa. The book is barely 300 pages - it had a word limit. It wasn’t going to focus on every single aspect of the Warcraft lore from the beginning of time; it was going to focus on things within its scope, and it did so well.

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You said it yourself, but I’ll say it again: my existence isn’t political. There are right-wing gays.

Imagine going on a public forum to say you find gay people repulsive lmao. This is against forum ToC btw.

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What I said is:

" To you certain ideologies like wokeism may be credible and worthy considering. To us, they’re repulsive and disgusting. "

I never said that people are repulsive and disgusting. Stop putting words in my mouth I never said.