I miss Garrosh

I can’t really add anything to that. I am a late returner to WoW, used to play Horde, and really liked the idea of him, especially when he had a highlight shone on him in the short stories.

As you can see I am playing a worgen right now, mostly because of a friend. But I still am looking with one eye towards the horde.

Thrall ofc will never be fully irrelevant since he introduced me to the Horde in Warcraft 3, but… eh. He outstayed his welcome, and none of the others feel truly Horde. Weirdly, the one leader left that I have some sort of attachment to is Lor’themar Theron.

I don’t know what I am trying to say with this. Probably just whining. xD

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Since its your first post welcome

oh, thanks!

Welcome to the Madhouse, Friend :smirk:

Varian and Garrosh were both great characters, because they actually existed in a space where characters were allowed to make morally questionable decisions, without descending into pure insanity. They got called out as actually morally grey and had understandable, if not acceptable, reasons for the things they did.

And then Garrosh descended into pure insanity and died and Varian just died. Now, everybody wants to either hold hands and weave flower charms, or they want to kill everything. Literally everything, in Sylvanas’s case.

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I don’t know. Varian was introduced to us in WLK as a warmongerer. In the Ulduar patch trailer he says “I’m done with your horde, may this death god take you all.” Very aggressive. Much hatred.

Then towards the end of the expansion his character does a 180. Muradin, for no reason whatsoever, denies Saurfang when Saurfang wants to bury the corpse of his son. Then in teleports Varian and says “let a grieving father pass” because, if I were to make a guess, the playerbase thought Varian was too aggro and he needed to be more gooder.

Varian’s character is the equivalent of character development parkour. I guess he eventually ebbed out and became a bit more stable, but still… not really the best character. I actually appreciate Garrosh more. He didn’t do as many character morality flips, as I recall. I think Blizzard demonized him a bit much. I don’t mind that he became a villain, but he became kinda comical at the end.

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Varian’s character makes perfect sense though. He hates Orcs and anything associated with them because every experience he’s had with them up the end of Wrath is terrible.

They sacked his city when he was a child. They killed close friends and allies. And when he comes back to his crown, after having spent a decent amount of time as a gladiator-slave to an orc, he finds that the Alliance has essentially been in a prolonged cold war with the Horde. He heads up north, and who’s the Horde’s primary military leader in Northrend? Garrosh Hellscream, who’s currently on a massive ego trip from learning that his dad wasn’t a complete waste of space, and raring for a fight with the Alliance.

And even so, Varian holds himself back, because despite the evidence of his eyes, ears and past experiences, his advisors are telling him that there’s more to the Horde. That he’s wrong. So he does. Oh, he gripes and snipes, but he doesn’t resort to his instinct, which is to attack.

Until Wrathgate. Where, to his mind, the worst suspicions of the Horde are proven true. So he attacks. The wolf is loose and even at the gates of Icecrown, the Horde and the Alliance are at war and they fought all the way up, right till Saurfang Junior.

When Varok came for his son, that was a huge moment for Varian, because he empathises both as a man who loved his son more than anything else, and as the wolf (who at this point was still a decent part of his personality) who saw the pack above all else. That simple empathy was the kickstart for all his character development, because it was impossible for him to completely reconcile the idea of a mindless, bloodthirsty Horde with the image of a grieving father.

Varian, and his contrasts with Garrosh, were actually some of Blizzard’s best writing in my opinion.

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I can buy that explanation, but from what I experienced it still felt like a lot of character morality flip flopping, but I’ll concede that there may have been some explanation to it.

Compared to the characters we have today, Varian was Shakespearean.

… also, sorry, I’m dripping with cynicism today it seems!

Haha, it’s not prob.

Honestly, Garrosh and Varian were great and they mirrored each other incredibly well, without attention being drawn to it.

Garrosh grew up secluded in Nagrand, and came to hate an Alliance he’d never known existed for perceived injustices against the Orcs. Varian suffered terribly in his youth from Orc attacks, and had very real reason to hate them but eventually grew past that.

Garrosh was the son of a famous character,and defined by his father’s legacy. Varian was a father who was shaped by his son’s words.

Garrosh was initially lauded as a hero by his faction, but isolated himself as he grew more extreme. Varian was initially disliked by fellow leaders, but came to build a genuine bond of trust with most of them as he mellowed.

Yeah, there were odd bumps of characterisation along the way, but it generally worked well.

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Allow me to welcome you to the geek club :wink:

And we will meet Garrosh soon, perhaps not in the best situation but hey, I’m hoping that he gets another chance.

Blizzard really hasn’t been fair with this orc.

YOU WILL SERVE THE HORDE, OR BE CRUSHED BENEATH IT!

We all do.

I’m with Terres on Varian. I’ll happily agree that in WotLK Varian and Garrosh fit quite well together. But sadly, there was story before and after that. The Warcraft comics with the “split soul” story were horrible. And funnily, even the supposedly aggressive half of Varian wasn’t half as aggressive as the re-fused Varian we got to see in WotLK. And with Wolheart they pretty much ruined the Garrosh mirror image thing again, when they made Varian magically rise above his anger, and get a Wild God’s blessing on top, just because Warcraft didn’t have enough guys with wolves. And the Varian we got to see in MoP was every bit as much of a carricature of his former version as Garrosh was. Where Garrosh became a mustache-twirling villain, Varian took up the archetype of the wise king, without any distinguishing features, really.

So yeah, Varian’s story is a mess. We essentially have three versions of him, and character development happens through magic.

But on topic… Garrosh was a good guy to have, when you wanted a faction conflict that felt real. Both sides driven by pride and old wounds… that works. We don’t need any evil plots, we don’t need to go over the top, just a bit of old-fshioned bigotry, like Garrosh had.

On the other hand… I really wouldn’t want to see him written today. You think his fall from grace was badly done? Just imagine how a hypermasculinistic, nationalist, orange loudmouth at the head of a world power would have been written by Golden and friends in the age of Trump. I kinda feel like we dodged a bullet on that one…

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There was a lot to the orcish story in Cataclysm. The parent generation had committed terrible atrocities and ultimately caused the permanent desecration of their people, the destruction of their home, and to top it off, instead of facing those accusations large droves became a lethargic mess in the internment camps, mentally unable to face the consequences of their deeds.

Thrall gave them the light of hope and a future to look towards to, and once they settled in Orgrimmar many of them saw the chance to sort of atone for their sins by living a harsh, but ultimately harmonic existence with nature and their ancestors in the rough beauties of Durotar, spiritually cleansing themselves in the process.

On the flip side, the generation of their children had to endure the self-imposed punishment along with their elders. This original sin has led to an unforgiving life where even a proud and strong warrior has to fish in puddles for scraps on a dust bowl (for instance that one female orc warlord you dethrone in the grizzly hills) instead of going to the plentiful ashenvale forest, not too far away and just simply take what they need. The young Mag’har lived on the brink of survival, pushed there by the Ogres of Nagrand, abandoned by the warriors who left them for a new world they failed to plunder. The orcs on Azeroth were born without a home, but in filthy prisons and among their dishonored parents. And when they finally managed to win back dignity and a semblance of greatness, the very figure of who brought them this future told them to be humble and live a life of temperance.

I liked this. Its as if the younger orcs are overcompensating for their childhood of misery and debasement, as if they had something to prove towards themselves, their parents or towards the world. One can easily see how that can go the wrong way, but its still something one can empathise with, and that is what made it so appealing. But knowing what I know from the Lore that I’ve missed while I was gone, I guess this potential story was not picked up upon. They should have spoken to the author who wrote their Heart of War short story. So much gold.

And the echoes of that, I think its this that made Garrosh and Saurfang appealing to me.

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Well, he kills a general for attacking Civilians in the stonetalon Questline, and later tortures Civilians in OG…
I would have loved a relative Hardliner like Garrosh to stay on the honorable path he was on in Stonetalon :frowning:
They totally wasted his character and discarded all of his development the moment they needed a villain…

Well… I was actually relatively fine with Golden’s view on that one.

Garrosh’s personality in game and out has done a lot of shifting back and forth. We see him get a lot darker in Tides . How did you go about developing his character?

I think Garrosh has, at his core, a weak personality. He was very hostile about his father and ashamed of his father, and it took Thrall to say, “Hey, look, you know your dad did some pretty amazing things despite everything.” He had to get that validation externally. He also had to prove himself in battle externally. And now he is surrounding himself with some very bad and dangerous advisors, externally.

Because I think that at the core, he doesn’t really know. He wants to do well. He wants to preserve the orcs and their pride and their history. But I think he is actually a rather malleable person whose opinions can change. He doesn’t have a strong core.

I think the main difference – Jaina has a very strong core. And when adversity and disaster and personal torment rip her down to nothing but that core, that core is still intact. It’s hurt, but it’s intact. And Garrosh doesn’t really have a strong core. So what he believes kind of changes depending on what the situation is and who’s talking. And I think that does not a good strong leader make.

Going with that… Garrosh did what he thought the people around him would want him to do, to be what they wanted him to be.

When he thought his wather was a monster, he was properly chastised, when Garrosh told him berserker Grom was a hero, he tried to be like Grom. And when he became Warchief he tried to be what Thrall respected him for, but was really bad at it and got rather extreme backlash. Getting threatened by Vol’jin and challenged by Cairne didn’t really make that an option anymore.

So he found new friends, like the Dragonmaw and the Blackrocks, who told him that those honor guys were losers anyways, and that the old Horde way was the best Horde way.

Might not be the best explanation… but I kinda like it, and it would have been nice if that was the vision they sold. But I won’t pretend that that’s what they actually showed us…

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this feels like a later try to explain a failure to depict a constant character.
Yes, Garrosh always felt kind of weak willed, instead of trying to do better than his father he was sulking around etc.
But after he picked himself up, up until the middle / ending of Cata it felt like he constantly grew as a character, learning from Saurfang etc.
And then he turned around and became basically Orc Hitler when they needed a Villain…
Garrosh in Stonetalon didn’t seem like he wanted validatition and even with his shortcomings feels like a completely different character to later Garrosh.
I have no source for this, but i think they said they forgot about Garrosh’s character development in Stonetalon when they wrote the later stuff… this makes more sense for me.

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It’s interesting how much of a contrast there is with Afrasiabi’s view on the same character.

Because that is the case.

From engadget interview:

So Garrosh was yours, huh? From beginning to end?
Not quite from beginning to end.

Cataclysm seemed like he was going in a different direction for a while there …
He was.

He was? Tell us about that – why he had that shift.
Miscommunication.

So Stonetalon …
Me.

You did Stonetalon?
I did Stonetalon. I didn’t stick to that path with Garrosh. I didn’t – not everyone was on board. Not everyone got the memo as it were, as we were designing – and that was my fault. Because when you’re doing, when you’re trying – because I was actually trying to bring Garrosh around, and Stonetalon was going to be the first of that. Cataclysm was pretty crazy time for us.

You had so much to do.
We did quite a lot of work. So I feel like there was a little bit of miscommunication on my part that kind of led to Garrosh going down another, darker path. So there’s an interesting tidbit for you.

https://www.engadget.com/2014-11-11-alex-afrasiabi-on-warlords-garrosh-and-alternate-azeroth.html


gl hf

thanks, that was the interview where they talked about basically forgetting Stonetalon when they wrote the other stuff for Garrosh.

Well, yeah, it’s pretty clear that there was no plan that every writer was in on. But Golden’s idea, post hoc as it surely was, sounded like a good way to try to make sense of what they had during cata, given that they wanted him as a villain.

Like I said, it doesn’t really look like they managed to sell that version of Garrosh, but that doesn’t really keep it from being the most coherent version out there. Not exactly a high standard, but well… it’s WoW’s story. Holding it to a high standard never works.

It went fine up until that bit…

I can get behind Goldens view on Garrosh, but can’t get over how she tries time and time again to pull Jaina in different directions.

I’ll probably die alone on this hill, but I honestly think that Cata Garrosh was the best sort of Warchief the Horde could’ve had.
He behaved as an orc, unburdened of Saurfang baggage, and less humanised than Thrall.

It was a leading experience akin to the one I’d expect of the likes of Orgrim Doomhammer.
Felt more “authentic” than the constant guilt trip the faction experienced under Thrall.

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