Idle thought: Integrating the Horde into the Zandalari empire. (spoilers included)

Lore Story
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As the lore talk confirmed once again yesterday, BfA is another addon about the same identity crisis that led to SoO. Blizzard is convinced that the underlying issues haven’t been solved in the slightest, and that the Horde needs to face them openly again, and find a common perspective to move forward. The honor vs “pragmatism” issue needs to be resolved, we are told.

At the same time we can see an interesting thing on the PTR data. The Zandalari seem to join the Horde as equal partners, and not as the Warchief’s subjects. Talanji calls Sylvanas to her, and tells her how their Alliance is gonna look, and Sylvanas accepts her terms. Talanji also names her (equivalent of the?) Zanchuli Council, and seems to include non-trolls, like a Tortallan, making an obvious step away from the traditional mindset of racial supremacy the Zandalari hold.

So… the Horde is breaking apart and in dire need of some kind of fundamental reform, at the same time they are taking on a powerful partner that offered stable government for millenia. A partner that is led by a spiritual, but also quite pragmatic leader, which can represent savagery as well as culture, and humility before the spirits as well as a fierce sense of pride and identity.

So… what if the Horde actually were broken apart, but every single member was taken up by the Zandalari empire? If Talanji’s empire wouldn’t just be restricted to trolls, just ruled by trollish emperors?

I think Zandalar brought us a representation of a savage, old culture that didn’t really seem primitive. And that is a hard thing to do, but desperately needed in the Horde, if you want something that can represent elves and dead humans as well as orcs. For the longest time orcish aesthetics represented the Horde, how about changing that up and making the Zandalari the standard?

I’m actually not sure about the details how you would get to that point, but for the moment I’m intrigued by the idea. But since I certainly don’t represent the Horde playerbase, I’d be interested in your opinon on this. Could you give up playing Horde for playing a part of the new Zandalari empire? Do you think this could avoid repeating the Horde’s identity crisis again in the future? Do you think there is any way this could actually happen?

Please share some thoughts.

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i for one worship our new trollish overlords.

Probably not. It’s about the same posibility as the Horde theory of forming a War Council instead. Of which, to be honest, I can see Talanji supporting fervently. That is if she listens to her more diplomatic side, than her trollish side.

If not, well…

I vote for a Direhorn the size of Horridon to smash down Stormwind’s Gates.

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I feel like instead of turning from one ‘dictatorial’ regime to another, this may point towards a new kind of ruling method that has its member states proclaiming their equal footing regarding faction affairs.
In other words, to work more like an alliance.

Same as the Alliance worked towards the Horde structure in Pandaria, and started the High King concept, I feel like this is a way of having the Horde reach towards the Alliance kind of ruling.

But that’s just my opinion.

That said, and working on your own hypothesis:

I think it would work rather fine. But only if Talanji manages to concile the Zandalari with the Horde races that would join them.
And that includes undead, and elves.

Given the initial backlash, the civilian population had regarding her deal with Bwonsamdi, I think it would have rocky starts but could work given some time.
Although it would maybe require certain races to change to much of their psyche for it to happen.
Not saying it is not feasible, as Blizzard is already doing so atm in order for the current Horde to work.

My two (extensive :wink:) cents.

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I’m always in for some new ideas that don’t ruin the Horde but rather changes it while remaining close to their identity, so I’d be interested if it were to happen.

What worries me though is that the Horde will become even more centralised than it currently is. The Warchief is basically a dictator, but there are ways to dispose of them in a Hordish way if it is necessary (e.g. rebellion or mak’gora). That’s not the case with a king or queen, unless we enter into some sort of Lockean social contract with them.

I’d rather want the power to shift more towards the individual races, and that the Horde starts to function more like the Alliance, like Zarao said: instead of the Warchief having absolute power over the Horde, the Warchief will only control the power the individual races have put in them.

But a change of esthetics never hurts. I’ve always been a fan of Tauren stuff, but I think the Zandalari or Trolls in general are a better candidate for that, seeing that the Tauren only have tents and totems…

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excuse me, a hundred seasonal kodo’s died to make those tents and totems!

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Dude, don’t spell out my wetdream :joy:

I was writing that current point Horde is dead and I’d rather switch to rebuild Zandalari empire rather than this trainwrech that Horde has become.

But the first day I logged on PTR once they added new races to test Orgrimmar basically became Zandalari colony and people started to voice out loud :

“Sylvanas be da wrong Leada!”
“The Horde is now Zandalari!”
(oddly enough I read it with Rastakhan’s voice in mind)
and they started to plot how to take over the world. :rofl::rofl:

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And do you want thousands more to suffer to rebuild Orgrimmar in Tauren architecture? The glorious Kodo’s have done enough for us… maybe we should switch to the Quilboar instead.

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imagine the upkeep reduction for moving an entire army if you can feed your grunts with the material of your tents and architecture because pork. dinner time could be done at the same time as moving the army.

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Or you could have soldiers eating their house during war marches.

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I’m actually a huge fan of tauren aesthetics, they’re super cozy and I always felt good at their places. More tauren inns is never bad.

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we’d save a lot from simply moving from kodo to quilboar.

You know what, Haiete? Have you ever considered becoming Warchief for this revolutionary suggestion?

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That’s a great idea. We can even push the moral greyness agenda a bit further, with some tribes starting to eat other races as well, such as the Centaur, which will result in a debate whether some tribes are not going too far by eating Furbolgs, Centaur, Gnomes, etc.

We should send in our résumés.

I like it too, but there is not enough architecture material to build all types of buildings the Horde needs I am afraid. Perhaps we need a genius to mix Troll and Tauren architecture?

Why, you flatter me. But I don’t know if I can handle all that power. Perhaps a few of us should establish the first War Council?

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They also have great hearts.

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Going back on topic, and to emphasise what I meant earlier, I just fished out some dialogues regarding how the general populace of Zandalar feels about dealing with undead:

I would rather see dis city burn than pay homage to death.
Talanji is marked with death! It is a curse!
I will serve no queen who bargains with de dead!
"Next you know, de throne will be moved to de Necropolis. Bah!
I will not allow it."
How can she elevate death above all loa? It makes no sense!

That’s why I think that exchanging one rule for another, regardless of Talanjis good intention (which she most certainly has), wouldn’t really solve the Horde issue, as it would simply shift the trouble from one focus to another.
In short, Zandalari aren’t as welcoming regarding certain races, and for this proposal to work, the leader would have to ‘enforce’ her view upon her subjects almost as much as the Hordes current leader is doing.

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And hooves.

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Thanks for the responses so far, and interesting how they have much more in common than I thought. And so far everyone seems at least neutral towards the idea, which can’t really be said of others out there.

Well, there are still those “No blue Alliance!”-guys out there…

But apart from that I have to say, I don’t think Blizzard is capable of depicting a more democratic system. They are getting ever more character driven and focussing on one character per race for every important decision would need a lot of politicing behind the scenes that they would have to at least think about, if not show. For the Alliance it hasn’t really worked and we never learned much about decision processes, exept their result. While I agree that it might be a better fit philosophically, I can’t imagine the council in the game.

I get your point, but I don’t think it would actually become a problem for the game’s story. If we ever get a Horde another rebellion it’s gonna be quite while till that happens. And it should be. The switching leaders and infighting within the Horde seems to be something about everyone is sick of. Stability within the leadership would be a change I would have thought would be quite positively recieved at the moment?

And while I agree that a rebellion plot is harder to do in a monarchy, it isn’t impossible either, if they want to do it after another 5 addons or so… And the monarchy wouldn’t stop internal conflicts from happening. Like Zarao pointed out, opening up the empire to non-trolls might quite well lead to division within the Zandalari, and possibly within other Horde nations as well. I mean… getting Nightborne and Blood Elves to swear fealty to a troll queen seems hard to arrange, and if it happens there would surely be resistance.

Edit:
And you know I would love for them to dissolve both factions and just focus on every race as it’s own thing… but since that is a very imporbable possibility, I’ll stay on the lookout for acceptable alternatives. :wink:

But it wouldn’t be the moral conflict we have now, but just fighting back the archaic thinkers. I don’t think this kind of conflict would be an identity problem for the players, do you?

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Hooves! :heart::heart::heart:

You also have horns and tails, you’re almost perfect!

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That is all true, but the idea that a leader can be removed from power by their people will also make the leader less arrogant. Furthermore, the justification for the Warchief’s power is partially defined by strength, something a monarch doesn’t necessarily need to posses since their power comes from something else.

It’ll certainly result in some problems, which keeps the lore active and engaging, but we’ll get the same result if the Horde shifts more to an Alliance-type of regime, in which the races have more power, or when the Horde moves to a War Council.

Why do you think that specifically the Zandalari Empire should absorb the Horde? They have fought against the Horde in previous expansions and they are only about to join the Faction… Quel’thalas can also take the same position (although I prefer the Zandalari).

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True. But a council could still outvote militar decisions and/or punish warmongers that went against the consensus or agreement reached.
The old Alliance of Lordaeron worked similarly.

Yes, agree it would be a complicated idea, and hard to implement.
But if Blizzard can manage right said scenario in a smaller scale (dwarves), it could be a new and refreshing approach.

Thrall did have counsellors that held a big sway over his decisions. Blizzard would just need to expand on it a bit further. Maybe not with a member of each race, but with a council made up by representatives of each mindset.

Again, this is all wishful thinking. I agree that they are tending to the ‘lazy’ “One-Man-Lore”.

Depends on how they expanded on it. As I said, they can certainly make it work by tuning the most abrasive traits of everyone involved.
But it would still pose a threat and risk another kind of moral conflict, if the Zandalari kept their current standpoint regarding undead or elves, and forced them down a path that felt like mistreating their races.
Identity problem for players? Depends on how Blizzard pushes the racial identity of each race or how they concile them.
We might find ourselves in this same spot, as it happened with orcs in cataclysm and Pandaria, and now is happening with Forsaken.

To name an example, Zandalari may not be as lenient regarding how they would treat Void Elves or Night elves.

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And thank goodness, I liked Zandalari for their strict conservative views. And that they have some priorities in life.

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