If the ripcord won't be pulled, can we at least switch covenants at will?

I agree with most of what you say, however there are still a few minor things I disagree with.

Agree, but I don’t see why unlike in LoL or Starcraft, WoW is actively trying to put a wall between those players and their performance.
I don’t think tearing down that wall makes the game less enjoyable for players who dont play at that level.

I agree, but I feel like I am repeating myself, I think it is fun to aim to do so anyways, but why is this wall in my face?

[quote=“Ishayoe-frostmane, post:80, topic:182412”]
You can’t perfectly balance a game with choices in it, and that means we’ll have to have the game make all the gameplay choices for you… in which case you don’t have a choice.[/quote]
that was what I was trying to say, the first option is impossible, therefore blizzard should lean into the second one. At least make us able to switch abilities whenever we want to.

And this is the reason I am advocating for change.

I think we agree on many parts, except you are way more optimistic and I am pessimistic. I would like to see more things change to remove needless friction.
I am totally up for grinding cool transmogs or following cool covenant story, but personally, I just want my player power to not be tied to my transmog or story.

No, it’s entirely like those games. This wall you’re referring to is the consequence of your choice. It isn’t erected just for the heck of it. Removing the wall removes the choice.

In StarCraft 2 I like to play Protoss. Protoss, currently, has a winrate issue at very, very high levels of play.

That’s a bit frustrating because I like to see Protoss play at high levels and I like to see my mascots up there winning. I wanna see PartinG smash up a good Zerg using his hilariously special tactics and great micro.

However… is this a problem for me in Master’s League? No. Even though I am in the top 2% of StarCraft 2 players, the game is still easily balanced enough that it won’t ruin my day. I can still win with Protoss. I can still have fun with Protoss. I have not crippled myself by picking Protoss.

I feel the same way in WoW. I play feral at 2.2-2.4k arena. I always have. Is feral is a great spec? Well, sometimes yes, most of the time no. Is this a problem for me? Have I crippled myself? Well, not really. I can win just fine and I can have fun just fine. Would I have been 2.5k on a rogue? Yeah, maybe. But it would’ve been miserable because I don’t like playing Rogue.

The problem here is that people want the strongest choice to be their personal choice, or they want for there not to be a real choice at all. That’s just… lame and same-y.

The only real difference is that WoW’s preperation for competitive play also involves gearing, and that’s fair enough, but in StarCraft 2 you need crazy skill so I’d end up playing just as much if switching faction there as I would in WoW either way. That’s the wall in StarCraft 2 - I have to learn a new faction and, in that game, that’s hard.

But it’s… boring. Just plain boring. You’re just making everyone the same.

You can switch to any covenant you want at any time. Switching back to a covenant you left will require you to complete 2 weekly quests.

I disagree, you’re not removing the choice, you’re giving the player the ability to change their choice a bit faster.
Also, WoW differs from those games, your starcraft isn’t locked to just using protoss or zerg, you don’t have to wait a week to switch race, and that is the point I was trying to make.

I agree with this too, I played shadow in 8.0. But that doesn’t mean I want to lock myself out of switching between twist of fate in raid and misery in m+. It would suck if I didn’t have that option anymore.

I disagree with this. When my friends plays frost mage in a dungeon or a new trial from the guild plays a frost mage in a dungeon, that is completely different, they don’t need a covenant ability to define them. I have stories with my friend in it, I know how my friend and I synergize in dungeons, even though the two frost mages were to have identical gear/talents, it isn’t the same to play with the two of them. This is not a skill thing but synergy. I think needing a covenant to define yourself really isn’t necessary. It is not same-y or lame.
It is the same as a teenager wanting to belong to a group of cool people to appear cool as well, the teenager learns it later in life, it is not necessary to be part of that friend group to be cool, he can be cool without being part of that group.
But in a game, I think it is fun to have a mog or a story that belongs to your covenant, but I don’t think the game should suffer under the covenant system.

[pessimism alert]
Blizzard will likely fail to balance the system, they have given strong hints that they will not make any lore-reasons to bind to covenants, meaning that there is no reason to make us bind to them in the first place, and have our options be opened up.

yes, but wouldn’t it be nice if we didn’t have to? since the ripcord won’t be pulled I am advocating some other change. I agree it isn’t optimal, but we are too deep to completely redesign covenants.

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I think Blizzard made a good decision. If you don’t like the covenant you picked, no worries, you can switch. But there should be a penalty for switching back to a covenant.

Who cares about the open world, though? Nobody does content in it. We just go there to mow a few dozen enemies daily and that’s it. Making the skills, conduits and soulbinds only work in the open world is a waste of effort. Not to mention that there won’t be a reason to develop your covenant if you only got benefits in the open world.

I personally like the rpg element in this. Your choices has consequences.

Well then it would be based on skill, wouldn’t it? :wink:

I laughed pretty hard at that one :rofl:

BuT mIn MaXiNg iS bAd.

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How is it not based on skill with borowed power in first place? Also, things are tuned around it. And civenants and what not are selling point of SL. Imagine buying car but u cant use it on roads… Will u buy it?

The selling point is new adventures with friends. New dungeons mostly. I bought it despite covenants. We just get more stupid systems throw in our face. I am not playing because of systems at all. It is by far from a selliing point. New adventures are.

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Dont get what the fuss is about, if we can switch at will seems like theres no point having it at all. unless your world 100 first guilds its going to be a faceroll decision anyway…

There is also no point. Everyone is getting the same daily calling, except you have to get the quest at your own covenant-hall (or whatever the name is). You go help out other covenants all the time. There is no RPG purpose.

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Yea, but will u pay 60(?) € for few new zones and dungeons? Which is literaly just 1-2 biger patches nowdays? Covenants, “pvp gear and vendor”, legendaries, those are important things most people got hyped on begining

I payed 45 euros for that, yes. I dont know about most people. I dont talk to them.

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If I can buy every car at a dealership, have I chosen which car to buy?

You’re basically saying you want every car. You might not use them all at once, but you want them all.

Now, obviously in this case, money is not an issue. But the feeling of choice is.

In those games the skill is the barrier. There is no preparation work, and that preparation work is precisely what makes an RPG an RPG.

What WoW is today, on retail, is not an RPG. It’s a reasonably competent action adventure game.

I understand that there is a desire for that game, but there is also desire for WoW as an RPG, and these two groups are at loggerheads - obviously. But WoW is supposed to be an MMORPG at its core, so the group that wants to make WoW not an RPG well… sorry.

Well, that’s obviously entirely a skill thing. Anything that makes players feel different to play with that isn’t because of their mechanics is their skill - or your skill. You can call it synergy - but in this case it’s a synergy of your skills.

There is an issue with that given what WoW is. Our synergy, our identity, should be defined by who our characters are as well as who we are. The exact degree to which it should be based on your personality and skill vs how much it should be based on your character’s personality and skill is a source of endless debate, but I think, and obviously Blizzard thinks, that WoW has tipped too far towards the player’s skill in the combat moment. We’ve stopped building characters.

It does feel like the Covenant system is a very, very desperate last hurrah from a frustrated design team. Genuinely, it feels… almost insincere. This is why I would’ve doubled down very, very hard - but I think they feared this backlash. They knew it was coming.

We have very different ideas about what would make a game like this suffer.

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