If that’s the case, how would you remodel WoW as a concept then?
Still curious.
If that’s the case, how would you remodel WoW as a concept then?
Still curious.
Now, nothing. I simply hate the orcs and criticize anyone who thinks they can be pardoned in any way.
WoW should have been Alliance only since the beginning, so these problems of Blizzard being biased against one faction 90% of the time wouldn’t be a problem.
Alliance is just a joke for Blizzard, and so are people who play it, we are not considered anything else than a few dots on the screen, while horde players are the protegées that can’t be even touched, especially not by the hand of the Alliance.
The thread is simply a reminder/rant/criticism of or about people who unironically think that genocides can be forgiven, or just because Alliance does something immoral give Horde right to continue committing warcrimes forever
Alright, let’s dissect this.
So you’re hating for the sake of hating and have nothing to provide beyond: “Quit your characters, come to the blue side where immoral acts are pardoned.”?
I already seen - scarily repeated so many times - of how you think the Horde is apparently biased, but I don’t think you’ve ever taken into account what Horde players have really accounted for this vaunted attention you believe they’ve been given.
How? Why do you believe this?
And if so, why do you still play Alliance if you really believe Horde has it all? There are plenty of examples of Horde players who are not into Sylvanas and yet still play Horde.
Can’t be touched? What do you want? My character to be repeatedly slaughtered in Ardenweald by Tyrande and Shandris because it doesn’t matter that I hated the whole genocidal event?
Does this stretch to other immoral acts in the story, or just the ones conveniently done by the faction of one-half of a playerbase? Because I can think, link and detail so many other immoral acts that Blizzard has placed and they, funnily enough, have not been clouted as much as this particular one.
So you want to be able to do the very same things you stand against and consider it moral and good because it’s on your side?
Sounds a bit… hypocritical don’t you think?
Link me one Alliance atrocity that can be compared to Teldrassil genocide. No, don’t give me the Amani vs Humans conflict because that was constant war.
Give me something where alliance attacked unarmed civilians out of the blue just for the sake of killing innocents for whatever reason which caused the death of 90% of said race.
I’ll wait
???
I’m not defending the Horde at all. I’m asking for genuine answers to genuine questions. If you think I have, then point out where exactly I have cleanly stated that I am defending them and I will concede.
You have not only vastly ignored making a coherent response to a vast majority of my questions and have attempted to repeatedly put me in the same situation as your beliefs, of which I am challenging.
So which is it? You have made repeated claims before that Horde players run away because they can’t defend themselves and now that there are - and always have been -, you don’t have the decency to take it up? Really?
If you can’t make a proper discussion and instead try and place a trap, then don’t start something you can’t finish.
There will be a time where this person will give up the story. Thinking alliance have it bad is ridiculous tho. Horde have it’s very own problems and it starts with killing off all their old-school leaders.
No I’m simply tired of repeating the same stuff over and over again.
I already gave you my answer but you want more on how I would deal with this thing which was not even the focus of what I originally wrote. The original post was about morals and how pathetic it is to excuse genocidal animals. Now if you want to prove me wrong and change my view on the vile pigheads that tried to steal home from our allies, go ahead, I can discuss that because that’s what I was making this post about
Then don’t repeat them and actually give a proper answer. It’s getting annoying to hear you repeat them for me too.
Because isn’t that the point of things being challenged? Let me guess, in a discussion, you DIDN’T want to have your claims challenged and just wanted people to nod their heads, and if they didn’t it was free game for you to spit venom at them?
That’s not how it works in a DISCUSSION forum.
And?
What did you want to hear exactly?
When your discussion points are literally telling others that they’re inherently bad people for playing the other side of a game, you won’t get much of a discussion material.
Maybe if you can look beyond throwing nearly every red portrait you see into the “GENOCIDAL MANIAC” pile, then you might actually have a proper discussion.
Where exactly did I say “If you play horde you are bad”
I remember saying those who defend those genocides or like them are bad, which is something I will continue to believe.
Pretty sure when you write “Horde players are x…”, you implicate all of them, not just the cherrypicked ones. Case in point:
It’s a dishonest claim that was repeatedly pointed out to you and it outstands me that you haven’t seen that yet. And not only in this thread alone.
Horde players are the protegées because it’s majority of them that benefits from Blizzard actively choosing to hurt the Alliance- Theramore, Gilneas, Teldrassil, etc. Sure, sure “not all of them”, if you believe that. But majority for sure. I doubt that even 5% of Alliance players like those atrocities committed upon us repeatedly.
Horde has hurt the Alliance directly countless times. When did we directly hurt the Horde apart from fighting back or helping you take down your tyrannical leader?
I have never said “if you play horde you are bad peron”
I have said something similar to “if you find pleasure in watching teldrassil burn you are a bad person” or something in that manner regarding whatever lore event I was talking about on whatever thread.
Not the point. Stick to it.
Again not the point. I have never said the Horde are innocent in anything immoral, just like I wouldn’t say the Alliance are innocent in anything immoral they do if they just bother to lift a finger.
See, that in itself is dubious. Genocide is immoral, yes, but so is supporting the act of doing the same thing yourself. If you feel like people like me are going to make repeated posts of the Alliance being genocidal maniacs when it happens, sure, whatever helps you sleep at night.
Mind, having repeatedly said that I am sick and tired of Horde being villains all the time, I will go on to say as to what you expected in a fictional product around faction warfare?
More murloc slaying because they’re not playable?
More light skirmishes where no one experiences tragedies?
And what about those that actually draw stories and inspiration from tragedy? Are you about to say those creative minds are twisted because they’re tolerant of it? At this point, your entire premise is this:
“Genocide is not okay in any way shape or form. Except if I do it because of my beliefs.”
The difference is this:
Alliance would be killing countless of war criminals for many wrongdoings in the past which includes multiple genocides.
It is like, you don’t want the evil to be punished. Horde that ALWAYS follows their leader without question, even in BfA it took a whole patch to form just a tiny resistance against Sylvanas, which proves that even in-game, majority of horde favors conflict over peace.
Okay? I didn’t know there was such a thing as War Innocents, but sure.
Are you kidding me?
Sylvanas and her questionable nature have been pointed out directly in front of the player’s face since Wotlk. In BFA, since that is the highlight, it literally led to her being excised out of the faction she was deconstructing from the inside.
If you are about to say you are in the right because they did not do it sooner, then feel free to echo my complaints to their writing department too, will you?
Excuse me?
Did you literally miss the entire point of the first, second, third, fourth w/e internal strifes the Horde story faction went through? It could have been better with what they did or actually been consistent, but you saying the Horde is still inherently prone to conflict is quite frankly wrong.
EDIT: I will remind you that the majority of my questions still remain unanswered, just a thought.
If Horde favored peace over war, they would simply rise against Sylvanas, right when she gave order to burn the tree. They were actually staggered by her order, so they weren’t planning it, i’ll give you that, but the soldiers would all rise against her if they truly wanted the peace. It’s not like seeking asylum within the Alliance would be impossible after Sylvanas literally agreed to a cease-fire, peace treaty idk what was it called in before the storm. But no, following your own kin is always the simplest choice even if it means wiping innocent races.
I simply don’t believe horde doesn’t live just for conflict. It was founded on it. All clans except the frostwolf were complete animals that valued nothing more than raw strength.
what do you still want me to answer? I think I’m directly answering your points right now
Now this is an actual discussion I can engage in.
Without defining several points, there are several monumental moments they could have actually risen away from Sylvanas as a whole and not just before the genocidal tree incident.
And without going fully in-depth about it, because there is many things to consider and unfortunately not all of them are just about story - even though I wish it was just about for the story - many have implied or expressed that the story of rising up against her was purposely staggered.
Not the best argument as to why it was like that, but it is plausible nonetheless because then it would mean a heavy drought of content. Considering it is the premise of BFA to begin with.
Yes, you’re not wrong that their first entry into Azeroth was to chop the nearest thing was there, but the faction has vastly changed since then. This begs to question if you actually played the Horde experience in full to have two viable sides and arguments on your side.
All i’m saying is maybe take a look on the other side.
Well obviously it was made for content… Now I don’t know if I want to talk about Blizzard’s choice to do this or Horde’s “choice” to do this. I mean I already ranted a lot about Horde and if I really try to suppress that fanatical annoying Alliance fangirl in me I guess I can say it was “----------------good-------------------” story catalyst. (from the complete outside view, i would never say this as a wow player)
But it still changes nothing about the extreme immorality of the act or of the people who find it justifiable, honorable, or good or positive in any way, especially those rats who buy mousepads of burning teldrassil or hang it on their walls. this is the main difference between Alliance and Horde players. We just don’t do this, I’m yet to see anyone buying or creating this merch with, idk. Killed Rastakhan?. Dead Vulpera?, Murdered Undead civilians at Arathi? No, because majority of us find those acts disgusting and know it’s nothing to be proud of.
“yay moom look, this is a burning capital where tens of thousands innocent elves burned alive, am I cool? am I edgy? Did you get me that naruto headband I asked you to get me” so sad
I’ll make this my last post as this is quite late, and it probably is for you too.
Fair enough, I can’t fault you on that.
But:
Well yes, I can see how that’s quite awful, but I have not seen this myself. And i’d rather not like to start. However, this is arguing of consumer products that I can’t really help nor want to explain.
For the rest, sure, I agree. But when it is fictional, it does not automatically mean they are supportive of the act. With this logic, anyone who enjoys crime novellas and documentaries are bad and twisted people because they enjoy its content.
Yes when certain things are fictional it is hard to assume what the consumers actually are but I stand with one thing and it’s this:
It is important to realize that fictional works are only fictional works. Not fictional concepts. Fictional works always reflect very real concepts, be it: crimes (such as those i mentioned), certain emotions, sexuality, you name it. And reaction of the viewer to those things still may reveal who he is on the inside.
This is why I will always find extremely immoral people who watch animated japanese “adult” shows that are depicting young girls in it that are below the age of consent. They argue “but it’s fictional”, to which I counter whith “The character is fictional, the concept is not”
And this goes even for the genocide. I just can’t take seriously or respect anyone who laughs at or considers Teldrassil burning as something cool. And I never will. Yes I’ve said I wanted to wipe the horde, added later that specifically those who seek conflict and stood with sylvanas (which I still think they deserve, AT LEAST the Sylvanas loyalists, that’s the bare minimum) But a genocide of completely innocent, unarmed civilians that came from a time of peace is a tragedy, fiction or not.
I mean. Take a book. If you read about torture, genocide or any disgusting crimes against a humanity done on a fictional character, would you think that a real reader who laughes at it or thinks it’s something to be admired is normal in the head?
(I know you haven’t said it but I’m leaving this for other people): “It’s just fictional” is not an argument. Extremely bad one at best, that should never be used when discussing any fictional work.
I’m pretty sure everything I’ve seen from the inside related to Orcs invading Azeroth has been them regretting their past corruption, oldschool leaders living in constant guilt, extreme defiance towards warlocks, and a desire to go back to their shamanistic faiths.
Also thinking that “valuing strength over anything else” equals being a beast sounds very eurocentric and anti-tribalistic - we don’t all have the luxury of living in a relatively friendly environment. If you ever visited Draenor (whether MU or AU) you must know that pretty much everything there is trying to kill you. In WoW as in real life, your culture is directly tied to your environment, and there’s just no reason to expect a group that lives in a state of constant war and danger to be all about dialogue and serene diplomacy.