Just looking from the outside of the shadowlands alpha, and with these numbers on the protection warrior, is it blizzards plan that protection warriors should be basically invulnerable.
I thought everyone was in agreement that this game needs less healing, not more. The current plan for the indomitable talent in shadowlands will, in effect, make protection warriors immortal.
It looks to me like with several resource generation bonus talents, paired with indomitable, the protection warrior will be to generate so much healing that it will not actually be able to lose health when paired with them being the toughest natural tank on top of it.
Ehm… Not sure if it’s 100% accurate due to player’s skills, but after seeing some Alpha footage on various tank classes, I’d say that a warrior is argurably the WEAKEST one atm. Bear is a true rock with tons of selfheals, so are DK and Paladin. All 3 got survivabilty buffs. Huge buffs when talking about pala, for instance. SotR uptime just went skyhigh compared to live thanks to HP implementation and it’s generation speed+talents like Divine Purpose. Let alone, LotP aka WoG is now spammable and ridiculously effective on allies. Warr on the opposite got a survivability hit. AM no longer affects DS and LS. Bolster is on the same row as Indomitable. ITF is now only 10%. It’s a very significant nerf to SB uptime even with Bolster. Alpha dungeon runs with logs show 20-30% uptime at best, compared to almost 100% on other 3 tanks with comparable or higher HPS. Even if it’s a player effect, 50-60% is still awfully low. With the overall loss of it’s BFA damage, I’d say that warr is a waste. It brings nothing in terms of utility, while being worse in terms of survivability. Hope it will change before SL hits, but atm warr is just a spec with no niche/feature.
You do realise that prot is the worst raid tank by far if there’s heavy damage as they have almost no protection against magic?
And that magic damage in raids has to be high because otherwise DKs would laugh at it?
Cause and effect. The cause is the BDK spec, the effect is that Warriors are hard to kill with the self-healing. Which just further cements how must have Indomitable is and how much of a false choice it is.
I fully agree with this sentiment. The only reason it’s so high up in the M+ meta is because people think it’s the best and that it requires the healer to perform stupidly well.
From what i am estimating, prot warriors are going to feel locked into the middle set of talents, their only real choice being wether they want to generate more rage for health or take less damage on the first tier.
basically, the left side does almost nothing to help you tank and the right side is filled with mostly niche choices, indomitable will be a seriously op effect especially if assisted by war machine or impending victory.
The major issue here is that warriors are going to start feeling like they are playing a blood dk and that point may just assume it is better to just play a blood dk because they will end up being funneled into the blood dk style but obviously not quite as good since that is bloods “thing”.
Your analysis is correct. You estimation of the Indomitable talent is wrong. The Indomitable talent will in its current form be a false choice talent. You either take or your performance as a tank will drop like a rock.
The heal is exactly the same as the one we had via Mannoroth’s Bloodied Manacles that in no way made protection Warriors broken. it made them work and we’ve been asking for it ever since.
And just because Warriors have a self-heal they in no way have the same playstyle or even feel as BDKs. That’s pure hyperbole and a reaction to things changing and change is scary. All tanks needs a self-heal now because the game is balanced around the massive self-heals of the BDK as they’re the number one tank when it comes to survivability. The Prot warrior is the number one tank when it comes to mitigation and mitigation is no survival tool as it only makes you die slower while a heal actually makes you survive.
except they should be nerfing death strike too, the effect of healing all damage taken in the last 5 seconds should be a cooldown, not a spammable effect.
This would make blood more controllable and not fly into the overpowered state.
Adding more healing to other tanks because one is overpowered will only break the game more by making more classes overpowered and we are then back to square 1 in modern wow development again meaning nothing will change.
I am just saying, if they do not nerf all of this healing now while they have the chance then people are not going to be happy with the game yet again because it is not good to see tanks doing ultra damage while healing more than the healer AND being 10x tougher than everyone else.
They need to cut out the tanks healing in favor of damage or this game is never going to be fixed.
I agree to prevent an arms race people have to be brought down instead of others brought up. That being said Prot Warriors do need a self-heal since every other tank has self-healing in some way, which makes Prot Warriors inferior by comparison.
Wut?
Prot is all the rage right now because it’s pretty much a fat dps that can take punches extremely well as long as they are phisical, a preferrable choices in the current “pull everything meta” of m+
They are currently weaker in shadowlands because with the aoe cap, the uberdmg part is gone and with the redesigned toolkit, other classes filled the gap in mitigation.
I mean, if my prot pala can have ludicrous uptime on sotr, i’m no longer squishy and i have a ton of other cd/buff/utility to bring, bringing me ahead of a prot, like many other tanks.
I’m sure gearing up the prot war will gain back his spot but so far it doesn’t look as dominant as before.
The utter lack of self-healing only makes the Prot Warrior good choice for going that fast if the healer is amazing. If you have an average Prot Warrior and an average healer then you have a recipy for a complete disaster if they move that fast.
You need to look at cause and effect. Prot Warriors doing well is the effect, the cause is their support doing well.
If you have an average BDK and an average healer then the BDK can go a lot faster than the average Prot Warrior as they can pick up some of the slack on their own.
The performance of a Prot Warrior is fully dependent on the performance of others and that’s the issue. They can only unlock their full potential if their support is amazing. Which means that it’s never the Prot Warrior that does well, it’s their support that does well that allows for them to do well.
Thats just wrong.
A prot warrior survives on their own in high keys and raid. In keys you need absolutely zero healing during cds. And your cds last at least 20 seconds+. 40 if you play lucid major and get double avatar.
Prot is balances around not having healing. The same way bdk is balanced around having good healing. They also take completely different kind of damage patterns.
Prot is a good choice, period. They have constant reliable mitigation with very little spikes, making it ideal to heal compared to me which is no dmg with sotr on, and uber dmg with sotr off. Plus they have very good mobility making it easy to kite to give time to the healer to heal up.
You are putting way too much value on other tanks self heal which in most cases it’s there just to compensate the lack of constant mitigation.
Wow, then I guess tanking Heroic Ylganeth with 474 ilvl and ending up on 5% health when using IP and Spell Reflect must had been a fluke. I used cooldowns after all so I should need no healing!
I also use cooldowns in Shrine and gets utterly obliterated on the week there’s Fortified + Grievous, guess that’s also a fluke since I should need no healing according to your statement of never needing healing when using cooldowns.
Other Classes can kite too and most of them can kite better default than Prot Warriors. It’s an utter myth that Prot Warriors have better mobility than any other Class as there are so many conditions to it. The only reliable kiting method Prot has is HL. Intervene requires that someone is in a good position, again it requires someone else to perform well. DH can jump twice, Prot Paladins can Horse, BDK can speed twice since most have that talent, GDs are the exception as Feral Swiftness is only in cat iirc, they compensate by being able to take physical damage, at least to, the face, Brewmaster Monks… yeah.
The only one of the four mentioned that needs support is the Prot Warrior. In order for Prot Warriors to draw out their full potential they need others to perform well and that’s the issue. In the MDI and similar, and meta assessments, it’s assumed that you have optimal conditions, that you have the best warrior, that you have the best healer, that you have DPS that performs well. In reality, and especially in pugs, you often end up with average performance from all, in which case the Prot Warrior is quite bad. They’re only seen as “must haves” because people uncritically accepts the meta assessments that they read.
Raid is a different enviroment, and Il’gynoth is rich in magic dmg, both things you should consider. Healer have cd to help you too.
Grievous is a healer affix, no matter who is the tank, it’s still on them to top you up. If you think having some self heal like i or a bdk do can nullify it, you’re thinking wrong.
It’s a lot of text, but in general i can sum it up in “if you die, it’s due to poor play”.
You have HL to kite, aoe slow from thunder clap, aoe fear, intervene etc.
The only weakness of the prot war is magic dmg, but in m+ is hardly that much if you play correctly.
I suggest you read more guides, and visit the prot discord to ask question, you can learn a lot on how to exploit the prot war regardless of the group you are with.
No one was talking about ilgynoth but w/e. See once you survive the second eye damage stops, which gives your healer 20 seconds to get you up with efficient heals, over time. Also you dont drop to 5% on heroic. You demo sr ip every second eyebeam. You also are basically guarantied to have full health going into beams since you can make the boss deal 0 meele damage to you.
So basically ilgy is one medium hit that you take with ip, followed by 0 damage for 10 seconds where you can get healed up efficiently before you tank a second beam with cds up. And you can have a cd for every second one. If youre actually afraid of ilgy you can run LPS and rotate Shieldwall and LPS for the second beam. Not that LPS is necessary. I still got famed without ever wearing a defensive trinket in raid. But yes its not the strongest fight for prot. But we have other strenghts. For example on m nzoth tanking thought harvesters is incredibly easy on prot. Bdk can get into situations where they get twoshot by their meeles. For me those require very little healing from my healers.
In shrine any tank gets yoinked by waterblasts. Bdk might not notice them immediately but eating them in the face will cost them runic power. And they will run out of deathstrikes soon if they dont handle it well, which means they die to meeles or general damage after.
Prot warrior can use spellreflect and shieldwall. Also shockwave, fear and stormbolt. We have lucid for big ignore pain spam on pull. I can survive a big pull just fine with cds. Memory into shieldwall gets you through the worst of it. We do take damage differently than other tanks. When i say we take zero damage I kinda ment physical damage. But that also helps with magical hits. Basically a water blast isnt that bad when nothing else in the pack can make your healthbar move you know. On a bdk for example you might get hit with a waterblast and then with some chain of unparried meeles and just die.
They of course can use cds to live it. But same as prot warrior only for a limited time. Like any other tank btw.
But i didnt want to tell you how to play.
I just think healing isnt necesarry for a tank kit if you have good enough dr. In the end the only thing that matters is how much healing you need and what kind of healing that is (are you getting healed by a beacon or do you require your druid to swiftmend you). And prot basically requires no focus on a lot of packs because of cd stacking (that gets enabled by anger management), and a lot of the healing can happen once the dangerous part of a pack is over and you recharge your cds.
lolwut? if prot war is soo bad, why is the top tank everywhere? other tank with “great self heal” should be better, easier to manage.
No tank has a sufficient amount of self heal to nullify grievous. Noone.
At best you can cheese it once with a very fat heal like lay on hands, but that’s it.
Again, your gameplay is the problem, not the prot war.
Confirmation bias without understanding the data. The top warriors are at the top because their healers are as well. No one reaches the top in a vacuum. That’s a highly western though and is the Conservative though process that has led to success being individual and failure being social.
No it’s not confirmation bias, it’s you not understanding that people at the top play what is best, not what works with others. everyone play the best pick because they can.
Blood strike doesn’t heal enough to nullify grievous every time, it may work from time to time but you have to be pretty up in health already and if you waste it to clear grievous, you don’t have it to recover from a big spike.
Why discass the current warr iteration in the first place?) The topic was made on SL Alpha changes. Atm warrior is good compared to BDK and PPAL. It’s AoE dmg via talents+azerite combo creates a niche for 5-man content. But as I stated above, it’s dmg potential and mitigation are heavily nerfed in Alpha. Other tanks recieved great buffs, especially DK and Paladin. This puts warrior in a bad place since it’s not the best mitigator any longer with the nerfs to talents like AM/ITF. It’s not the best damage dealer also due to AoE cap. It has very little utility compared to it’s buffed counterparts. Paladin has DR aura/Blessings/Cleanse/LoH/Crazy spammable WoG heals for allies. DK still has grips, CR, AMZ. Warr has nerfed 5% AP buff+SPell Reflect… pretty much this. In terms of mitigation on Alpha, Feral is king atm. BDK has like twice as much hp as PPAL or Warr, 100% uptime on AM, tons of selfheals, and Runetap baseline. PPAL has HP back, making SoTR and WoG spammable with close to 100% uptime for AM. Warr’s SB is still tied to charges with settled CD, so it’s uptime took a big hit with nerfes to ITF, AM. Taking Indomitable, hits it even further with the loss of Bolster. IV is also almost mandatory in content like Torgust, for instance. Lack of baseline healing initially puts a warrior in a bad spot in any content that doesn’t provide a healbot support. This is an outdated concept, that largely hinders the class evolution in modern WoW. Blizz can’t give it 95% baseline mitigation since it would be OP, yet they also can’t find guts to give it a viable baseline heal to be competitive with other tanks in all sorts of content.