Impressions on a new player 3 months in

I think my point was where the goal was set at being a mount or a cosmetic, which has often been the case with the high endgame of WoW for a while now (see curve mounts, ksm, gladiator mounts etc etc), so adding in better looking mounts and cosmetics than those which have become a reward for achieving the ‘endgame’, for a set price, often leaves a sour taste. Especially when the reward for dedicating hours of time, is a recolour of a pre-existing mount whilst the store gets a brand new rig, brand new animations and overall seem to have much more effort put into them than the actually game based rewards.

FF doesn’t suffer this because it’s emphasis is massively on a story, the endgames exist and it’s fine but I don’t think the store has such a detrimental effect of people’s enjoyment of the game because it simply has it’s major pluses elsewhere, where the store compliments what the game can offer rather than the other way round.

My grading system is based on effort and the experience it provides. I get it, it can look nice and sound nice, but if it’s a bad experience or functionally not working; I’m not going to rate it high.

Wow has had a serious competition it had serious competition since 2012. It’s a 16-17 yr old game. It should have 16-17 years of consistent improvement on almost everything I stated above. People are stuck in this mindset that products that are worked on for over a decade by specialists are somehow old and out of date, especially with gaming, because they no idea what goes on, and the optics take control.

When you have a 16 yr old game, you are the market leader. Blizzard should have the talent, the knowledge, the player base, the funding, a smooth content pipeline, access to the newest tools, the best servers, more community managers, more developers, a better work/life balance for staff (more people less impact one person makes, therefore, they become less important to the project as a whole meaning they can take time off, for example, its how corporations remove the corporate feel), a proud history and less work to do than your completion to produce the same result as you have 16yrs of work to stand on and an existing code to improve on.

Where are the 16 years of philosophical development? This game has a little foundation. It’s incredibly experimental for no reason. I think I know the reason though they see games like FF14, Ashes, Gw2 et al. and think “insert the word” if those games go live, they will harm us because we haven’t done our housekeeping, so they mutilate their own game as an attempt to say look how innovative when no has innovation has occurred. Which comes off that the company doesn’t believe the product is good enough.

Covenants, order halls, garrisons are not new ideas, and that’s why you probably get annoyed by them implementing these systems in the way that they do. (I get annoyed by looking at them). However, these systems have been designed and worked on by 100,000s of people for over two decades in multiple different genres and countries.

You only see simple versions or two three variations not due to how unimaginative people are, but these are the ones that are industry standard and best practice. In other words, they are objectively good and create the best experience for the majority because humans have more in common than not, especially with what they like v dislike. That’s why most emotional issues or actions happen when someone is at the extreme. People can be objectively measured we are animals who are not that special.

Blizzard hopefully knows because the junior designers would be trained by the senior who been trained by theirs and that knowledge would have been passed down. It’s what differentiates a studio what makes people fall in love with them. So it has an “insert game studio” game.

Most of what I complain about and the potential problems I can see in-game the solutions because they were problems Blizzard fixed in the past through simpler means they wrote the book on gearing and crossing that divide. I saw that and instantly could see the Blizzard DNA in FF14 and other MMOs. So my biggest frustration as someone who gave 4-5 years of their life becoming a game designer and more playing genre why are you doing this? Why do you feel the need to do this? You wrote the book stop ripping the pages out.

When people above did the mental gymnastics, how can he have such insight because you’re a new player? 3 months isn’t enough. It might not be enough for you because you’re probably in the honeymoon phase I’m not. I came to see how the largest MMO did things because running for 16 years is extremely impressive.

It seems a lot of the issues in-game are not because of the player base but a highly experimental process of giving you what you already had. In other words, it’s just poor form, and that doesn’t help when you have a PTR because it makes you look foolish since the players can see and report on 20% of your thought process, and it comes off as insecure development at best and malicious at worst when done wrong.

If you have heard this before from previous people in the game or industry, you might want to think the issue might actually be there because if an outsider can come in and see it in two seconds, then I wonder what someone with 16 years can see.

That’s very much a matter of taste.

I do not want a store on a sub game to “compliment “ the gameplay at all. I want it to sit far away from it so I don’t feel compelled to use it.

If the story is making the things in the store make sense to purchase I’d call that a corporate shakedown strategy. It is very interesting how it could be perceived as a potential boon in that the two “go hand in hand” when we all know if blizzard tried to encourage the store use in that way, people would be memeing about Bobby.

I have nothing against Ff as a game and preference at all, but I object to the claim the monetisation of it is weaker and less predatory than WoWs, as that is outright false. The fact the developers have done a good job of making you see the store as “part of the experience “ doesn’t mean they’re not trying to squeeze for you cash, it means they’re simply more refined at doing it whilst making it look like they’re not.

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Weird how basically all the games you listed - and the things you mentioned specifically things like Graphics have not seen the level of improvement and change you’re talking about without completely redesigning the engine and basically making it into a whole nother game which runs the HUGE risk of people not liking that and running to anything else because the game is no longer anything that made it special and made it exactly what it is.

How long something has been running =/= market leader.

You’re aware game devs just don’t work on the same game for all of those years right and they actually tended to work on other projects while newer people worked on WoW as time went on? Literally none of the original Dev team even work at Blizzard anymore, period.

Well, even in the current state WoW pulls more numbers than all of those combined. So I guess so?

Yes I’m sure those games were around 2004… Ah, nope…

Depends on what we’re talking about, since you had a lot of complaints that were not relevant to game design but the engine they built back in 2004. Which, I still prefer WoWs races over any of the games you listed even with ‘limited customization’

It reminds me of someone coming into OSRS, hating all the things it has and pointing it towards well - RS3 and going “See that’s how you solve these problems” but then you realize that the players didn’t want that and it bled subscribers.

Making the game ‘same’ in a lot of ways to FF14 or ESO would guess what? just make people go play those.

You don’t redesign an entire game engine that makes no sense. Hay, we need a graphical update to let me do 100% of the work again. You redesign the graphics portion of your engine and leave everything that doesn’t need to be touched. Also, Art style and graphics are not the same thing.

Then, as technology gets better, you upgrade the engine parts and add them to allow for more things in scenes support different areas of development to take the work off developers so they can focus on more important things et al. This is why the unreal conference was a game-changer when it comes to engines because they have made serious strides with unreal 5.

You construct engines. Most code is in a modular fashion (which is why it’s called an engine. They weren’t that imaginative when naming it), which is incredibly easy to understand because the next guy needs to know what’s going on. OpenGL C++ is hard on a good day since it’s incredibly specialised, and no Opengl C++ is not the language the average developer writes in. So chances are they have their own coding language based on C++ or another C-based language because you want people to understand the theory and have the experience with a similar language to pick up your variant and understand what’s going on faster.

Also, I know Blizzard has upgraded their internal engine for WoW because if they didn’t Bastion and other modern zones wouldn’t be possible, and I will criticise it because its part of the game they have made. If that means they need to add engine functionality which should be there they need to fix it.

The biggest problem with assets Blizzard has is that every expansion they increase the fidelity, it will also require more people to make those assets and a lot more time it also makes parts of the world feel much older and neglected.

Also, all these ideas have been in the game industry since before Warcraft was the thing. Most of these concepts are in early MMOs, single-player games and even board games or normal role-playing games most of the concepts that built the early MMOs came from role playing games and board games. They are presented differently, which can have a massive impact on the accessibility when interacting with that system. We were not even talking about the pure theory side of game development where these ideas are created, shared and innovated upon because most game development ideas are community-based. This is why people did not like the fact that companies were patenting ideas for systems done a certain way because it stunts the growth of the industry as a whole.

It doesn’t matter if a developer moves from one project to another project. Projects take 2+ years at minimum, you train people during that time, you have core company philosophies and team philosophies which are pick up and passed down hopefully.

So when that developer does leave, the people who remain can continue on their work because developers who spent years of their life on a project don’t want the next guy being incompetent, not understanding their thought process or know what’s going on. So it looks bad on you if your name is on that and you have spent 2+ years of your life which turned out to be a massive failure.

Well, so far SL is about as good as it gets - and it takes big performance hits with the current engine. To play what you want - probably 2x3090ti with top end would be needed for 60 fps especially in a lot of areas that you seemingly haven’t really had much experience in like outdoor content that’s already struggling and raids themselves.

What do you mean, why couldn’t they just upgrade the graphics for the engine and it still be unreal engine? :3 Same for Guild wars, btw.

Which again. I haven’t seen any of the other games you pointed out do stuff like this.

There’s a high, high difference between a grandmaster, and the students that come after. Can’t change that, if all could be ‘taught’ then there would be thousands of games with the same high quality and passion but that’s not the case. They’ve shown this even for Classic, a re-release that ended up being pushed out not the same because it didn’t have the same devs behind it.

New devs have big egos and are awful at building and design, old devs are gone and you’re asking for them to ‘upgrade the graphics’ with the constraints of the engine it’s built upon. In the end, they only way it’ll happen is likely in a different engine completely rebuilt which would change how everything is played in the first place. Because SL is the limit of what they can do currently, clearly, for graphics. Which, the new customization that came in prepatch broke tons of toys and other things. It’s also why they had such a big time increasing default backpack size, because of old code and changing it broke so much stuff.

Plus again, literally none of the other MMORPGs you listed have done anything of the sort you suggest ‘can be done’.

I was a FFXIV player before i started playing WoW.
I play WoW because i enjoy the combat system, and i enjoy m+
It’s just an experince i won’t get anywhere else. I do have some problems with some of Blizzards decisions.

Shadowlands questing is some of the best in my opinion, the covenant stories are actually pretty awesome, especially night fae, it’s also the first time the story writers have tried to add small cutscenes in between quests. Also the reason we get the hilariously bad Jaina speech animation.

So giving it a D+ makes no sense, they have tried to make questing a unique experience, and i actually enjoy it.

Honestly i’m not that invested in WoW compared to FFXIV, but
if you only played the game for 3 months, you really can’t rate any expansions other than current Shadowlands. It is nowhere the same as it was when older expansions were relevant. All you got is a slight taste of what it was like.

Some of your reasons are true and agree, but you ain’t saying something that has’nt been said before though.

You don’t need 2 x3090 Tis for anything right now on the market 1 is overkill, unless you’re doing workstation workloads.

Also, performance hits a rarely the engines fault, it’s usually the fact that that you have network issues connecting to their servers.

For the unreal part, it was a comment on the industry right now with the early access release of unreal 5 and how it helps developers link: Unreal Engine 5 - Official Valley of the Ancient Tech Showcase - YouTube

As for the fidelity remark, a ton of games do it, Runescape is a good example for a more modern one would ESO & FF14. They all keep their fidelity consistent and updated because these games need to with to work with low-end consoles which means for example when the PS3 was no longer supported they increased the fidelity of their assets.

Your grading system is inconsistent. You seem to use the American system A-F, then add your own U value, then at the end you turn around and use a 1-10 scale. Please just use 1-10 next time.

I agree with OP on many points, and nothing will change until wow gets serious competition.

Competition is good, however actually it looks like GW2, ESO and FF14 compete with eachothers. Their target audience is very similar.

Also New World will be competing with GW2 WvW mode and games like Albion.

There’s currently no mmo which compete with WoW.
Maybe new Riot game will change it, but currently I don’t see any other project which is targeted into core WoW audience.

U means ungradable. It’s from the UK. Also, the value of U-A is based on the percentage of approval.

U = Ungradable
F = 20-29
E = 30-39
D = 40 - 49
C = 50-59
B = 60-69
A= 70-79
A+ = 80 above

Each of these is corresponding percentages meaning they graded it 30-39% or an E grade.

They are from the UK since they talk in Pounds and tell you they are Scottish in the text above, making logical sense.

I am more amazed, though, at the number of mental gymnastics people do to brush criticism, such as you can’t judge a product after a quarter of a year. How long do they have to be enslaved to service to judge it 7+ years, especially if they have seen the systems tried the content and have a background where they are competent enough to analyse systems they are familiar with?

If someone came to me and stated I had played MMOs for 19 years, I have a background in computer science and game design. I can see flaws in the way they have implemented this compared to other games, and I would listen instead of the random wiki warrior above trying to educate someone on engines when they know nothing about them, to begin with.

It is gatekeeping for the sake of their own ego to affirm their purchase because, deep down, they don’t believe the game can stand on its own. Wow doesn’t need anyone to defend it; it has its problems. The OP stated it could be fixed with massive investment and effort, which seems reasonable and good feedback. How are developers meant to take that feedback when they have many cry babies obfuscating the criticism by saying something is subjective? When its objective, for example.

I don’t think people are claiming OP background isn’t valid.

I think people are taking issue that OP has presented themselves as a “fresh eyes on 3 months” and yet many of the criticism points actually draw on stuff that wouldn’t be viewable within 3 months in isolation so either OP has been tracking WoW critically in the side (which means they are not “a fresh new player” as they seem to portray it) or they have actually been playing for longer than 3 months, yet claim to only play for 3 months.

That’s what people are getting at. If you’ve only been playing three months and those three months form the basis for your criticism, why on earth mention the evolution of the blizzard store taking into account stuff in excess of 3 months? You won’t have witnessed any “decay” of it within 3 months Alone. Not unless you’ve been watching it from the side.

To me OP is not a “okay so I went in blind and this is it” OP feels like “so I know about WoW and have been tracking it and decided to give it a go for myself to see if my opinions are correct” which is very different from the kind of tone of post they set up in the beginning (which is going for this whole “here’s what a newbie with some education thinks about the game on its own terms in 3 months “). I sincerely doubt the 3 months alone of just playing the game has formed the entirety of this criticism. It alludes to stuff way prior, going back as far as a year.

I mean there’s the whole prefixing with the degree in game dev etc (to paint a picture of being sensible and such) and then the defence of the store mounts requiring 6 month sub on their account is “I was gifted money card which I impulsively spent entirely on this game I’m not sure I’ve made my mind up on” which to me contradicts the attempted show of sensibility.

Someone could show me a degree in business management or economics or science to try and express competence but if they behave in a way that belies that then it kinda loses the gravitas, if that makes sense?

It’s disingenuous to me. OP criticism is valid and solid points, but I don’t believe the angle of presentation is genuine here and I don’t for one second think OP came to these arguments merely from 3 months of play and nothing else to sway their opinion and motivations. There’s too much stuff with the OP and replies that just makes it seem unlikely. Could be true, but I dunno, I just don’t think OP is this “newbie fresh eyes on WoW” they’re claiming to be. It doesn’t make their criticisms any less potent it just makes me question the presentation angle. Like if a guy whom is delivering a criticism for me is solid, and says he’s from X company but in fact he isn’t and I find out, that’s gonna make me question his motivations.

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