In defense of Anduin

The thing that they were officially exiled for. Exile is a verdict. For a crime.

So what was their crime?

Doesn’t really matter for my point, and I haven’t seen their ciminal indictment. :wink: Pick anything that fits the story.
Why does it matter for yours?

Or, more honestly: Since you are sufficiently informed about the lore here, this question smells like a trick question. I’d like to know where you are going with this, before I delve into details.

I’m pretty sure the deal was sealed because Anduin idolized Alleria and Turalyon, they’re living legends to him and as a discipline priest, he’s less likely to turn his back to the Void Elves completely. Especially if Turalyon, a champion of the Light, doesn’t.

The arcane is also a controversed energy that loads still fail to control. A more extreme example would be fel energy that no one can truly claim to master yet the Alliance never had any problem keeping Warlocks around or reintegrating Demon Hunters in its ranks.

For the six months thing, I don’t know where you got this information. The Blood Elves she found on Telogrus had been studying the Void for we don’t know how long with Umbric since we don’t know how time flows there. The Void Elves have the same teacher as Alleria, she didn’t teach them jack unless I’m forgetting something (totally possible).

Even if discipline priests use Shadow magic rather than pure Void, Anduin is better placed than other leaders of the Alliance to know that it can be tamed.

They followed Void research to find another way to protect Silvermoon and sustain its people, just like the Blood Elves did before with Fel magic and before that with Arcane. All scholars are stubborn, that’s how they make discoveries. It makes sense for them to constantly research things rather than limit themselves to what is already known.

They were the ones rejected by Rommath. Some left their families to find a way to better protect them, some likely had none left after the Scourge invasion and sought to become more powerful. Like many others, including Demon Hunters.

The fact that the research was Darkhan Drathir’s was a running gag I’ll concede that. But I can’t think of any magical research in the Warcraft universe that doesn’t have its fair share of darknest. As for having no reason to think they’d do better than their forbearers when harnessing an unknown magic source, that literally applies to most races in WoW.

Speak to Umbric if you think that Void Elves in general shared a common happiness in killing Blood Elves during BFA.

Obsessive, incautious and arrogant applies to all Elven races and Orcs. Incompetent, in what and according to who? Illoyal and disobedient to whom?

I don’t think so. She barely knows any of them and isn’t one of them.

They left because they wanted to pursue their research and didn’t trust the Horde, like most of the Blood Elves at the beginning of TBC which is around the time they were exiled. You can find the two Blood Elves npc who tried to rally their kin against a Horde alliance in TBC in Telogrus. Umbric and his followers had been on Telogrus for a long while when all the shenanigans with Garrosh and Sylvanas happened. They chose to join the Alliance as a thanks to Alleria, but mostly to keep their knowledge of the Void out of the hands of the Horde, lead by the Jailer’s puppet at the time they went back to Azeroth. Logic says that they would have remained a neutral party in a logical universe, but since the point was to give Blood Elf lookalikes for Alliance players that’s what we had to deal with.

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Thanks for the reply, I read it twice now.

I found nothing that I haven’t read in this context before, though, and am thus unmoved in my position. Since I am not really interested in changing your position, and only expanded on the topic because I was asked, I’ll just leave it at that, and we can agree to disagree here, without going deeper. If something I wrote was unclear, I’ll be happy to explain, but we’re starting too far apart for the notion of finding common ground to sound appealing right now.

Considering the original thread topic was Anduin, you guys really deviated :rofl:

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Sorry about that :sweat_smile:

It keeps the thread alive so the emoji was to symbolize I’m teasing you both. :two_hearts:

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Blood elf story means they moved on from magic that is dangerous. Blizzard now validating void elves and their antics would be a massive middle finger for all Sunfury and Kael.

Now they were told the studies of the most notorious traitor is bad vibes and were asked to stop.

their motives are just like high elves. Make human senpai notice them.

But instead of Turalyon it is Halford.

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You accused Void Elves being criminals. I asked you, what is their crime i.e. , and you say it doesn’t matter, are you serious?

I asked you to find logic in your accusations and so far I see none.

You made quite loud accusations by calling an entire race disloyal, scum, criminals and you’re not even able to give grounds for your accusations.

Well… yes, actually. We know what happened. Rommath, the grand magister who was supposed to make these calls, told Umbric to stop messing with the void, Umbric refused. Umbric knew that Rommath was taking it up to the leadership to see them banned, Umbric didn’t repent. And then Rommath got his way, when the Blood Elf leadership judged Rommath was right, and condemed Umbric, and those who chose to follow him. It doesn’t really matter, if the crime was void use, if it was disobedience within the magister ranks, if it was endagering the city, or whatever else they had on the books that fit the situation. It was judged a crime worthy of banishment, and it could have been avoided by dropping his dangerous study of choice.

Not really. A cult of Blood Elf researchers. That their number seems unending is another problem with them.

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Okay, so Umbric and his followers refused to cease studying the void and this is what you call their crime. And this is why Rommath kicked them out of Elven Society.

Why then didn’t he kick along with Umbric’s followers all the shadow priests (who tape into the same void magic) and all death knights (necromantic magic), all demon Hunters and all warlocks, huh?

Fel magic is at least as dangerous as void magic, if not more dangerous.
Yet warlocks and demon hunters are allowed to practice it, while Umbric’s followers are not. What is this, if not hypocracy?

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Considering how little this actually relates to my post, you had that counter waiting 3 posts ago, didn’t you? It certainly doesn’t feel like you are genuinly trying to understand my point here anymore, as opposed to arguing against it, so I’ll make this one my last reply on that topic.

Don’t know, don’t care in the given context, really. Law is a complex thing, and if there is any realism about it in Warcraft, they’ll certainly have more than one book about the juristdiction of magic. Maybe there are special exemptions made in the law for those groups. Maybe there are different standards for Horde members and for Silvermoon citizens. Maybe there are different standards for frontline fighters and for civillian researchers. Maybe it wasn’t about the magic itself, but about the way Umbric specifically planned to study it. Maybe they all get a license that Umbric didn’t get, Maybe it wasn’t about the magic at all, but about unlawful disobedience towards his superior. Maybe Umbric, whose side of the story we are referring to, wasn’t exactly giving a fair picture of the situation. And yes, maybe the Belves were just hypocritical in their law enforcement.

As I have said repeatedly before: Doesn’t matter to me or to my point here. I don’t have to write their nonexistent law treatises for you to say, that Umbric was convicted by their laws, and that by his own words he wouldn’t have been, if he had left off the study of the Void. He had a choice between his field of study and his people, and he chose poorly. He has no right to whine about being outcast, when he chose that fate himself. Sure, he can say that he is standing on principle (whatever principle that maybe, I don’t see it), but that doesn’t dissolve his duties of loyalty to is kin that he trampled on, when he decided to join the fight against them. Not because they attacked him, but because Alleria offered.

I’ll stick to calling him and those that chose the same disloyal scum.

I too feel Anduin is pretty cringe in the beginning of TWW. It is because I perceive his continued whining and dwelling as self-absorbed. He didn’t move himself at all during his absence. He needed Faerin to wise him up. The moment he starts to think about helping others instead and actually moving on is when he to me becomes bearable again.

The question I asked relates to the very basis of your arguement, the arguement that contradicts the most elementary logic. You ignored it and instead try to gaslight me with another wall of meaningless text.

I asked your opinion, because I thought I was talking to a reasoning person and I was wrong.

You can call void elves traitors or call a cat a dog, whatever pleases your distorted view.

Come again, when you have aquired some reading comprehension. You can disagree with my position, but if you think I ignored your question or rambled beside my own point you obviously haven’t understood what I wrote.

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Just out of curiosity, is that what you think of the High Elves as well?

That’s a fair criticism. He’s been absent for years and now became more miserable than he was at the end of Shadowlands. I wonder if the writers will touch on the experiences he made during all these years or if it’s all going to be swept under the rug

Not to the same degree. They remained loyal to the Alliance they were a part of, and to the culture they grew up in, though not to the people they grew up with. They were enemies of the Horde before their brethren joined them, and they just remained so after. So in a much more real sense their people turned on them, rather than them turning on their people.

Apart from that I find their moral objections much more reasonable. Being forced to take part in stuff they find reprehensible sounds much more objectionable to me than being forced to abstain from at least potentially bad stuff.

That said, since they have shown to value their principles over their orders and homes, they have shown that they aren’t driven that much by loyalty. So yeah, they are to some degree disloyal. You could never trust them to back you without question. For a military they are potential troublemakers.
And the viciousness the Silver Covenant showed towards the Sunreavers certainly felt despicable.

Edit:
Oh, and I wouldn’t extend the scum lable to them. That applied because of the unique combination of objectionable traits I prescribed to the Void Elves above. It wasn’t just the lack of loyalty.

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the DHs are neutral and out hunting demons instead of Silvermoon, warlocks have to practise in secret. Only Umbric and his followers are adamant that the most dangerous thing in the cosmos will somehow be benfitial for Silvermoon.

They had the chance to walk away. Yet they decided to stay and make the blood elves suffer as their enemies just because Alleria was personally offended they left the blue team. That is the bottom line of the void elf story so far.

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