I agree with your second paragraph. I think it would be odd if someone who specialized in the healing arts of combat dealt the same amount of damage as someone who specialized in the damaging arts of combat, but it would also be weird if the healer wasn’t trained for damaging arts of combat at all. Therefore I believe that 50% effectiveness is a good middle ground, and as Zeline said, I agree that the cost of using spells/abilities that isn’t within your specialized niche should be costly in terms of resources (mana).
I should have clarified that I’d be looking on a mix of AoE and single target damage. If we look at single target alone I believe they’re somewhat comparable, but resto shaman falls behind in AoE damage. I’ll edit the post.
Nah. Go play FFXIV if u want ur bland dps healing gameplay in ur 2s without actual difficulty. Ironic too considering healers constantly whine about there being too much damage or raidwides in harder content and they cant keep up with healing.
You should be playing a healer because u like to heal not cuz u want to DPS.
Wanting healers to do tank damage is just actually a psychotic take.
This adds nothing to the discussion, and is as close to trolling as it gets.
I’m advocating for a change because I (me, I represent my own opinions, nobody else’s) enjoy healers, but would like to see them improved on.
I’m also not talking about 2’s, I’m mentioning the 10-13 key range where the mid level keys are and you’re faced with somewhat of a challenge, albeit not a huge one.
I do enjoy healing, but since it’s hard (and boring) to tune fights around constant rot damage there will be windows where the healers can do nothing but afk if they don’t focus on dealing damage, as there is nothing to heal.
Is it really psychotic to want to have some kind of impact pn the fight during those scenarios?
You probably don’t consider that by increasing a healer’s damage to ~50% of a DPS’s (but which DPS? The worst or the best?), this creates problems. For example, if we’re talking about the worst DPS, a healer (like a mistweaver) already deals more damage. And if we’re talking about the best DPS, raising a healer’s damage to 50% of that would mean the healer would deal more damage than the worst DPS.
So, if you’re not playing a meta DPS but have all three talent trees set for DPS and your gear optimized purely for DPS, you’d still be doing less damage than a healer with a talent tree set for healing? That’s absurd.
Obviously, this change would have to require that DPS is rather balanced. No DPS spec should be outperformed by a healer/tank if they play at an equal skill level.
If you have a link to where the theoretical maximum damage output for each spec can be found I’d love to have a look at that, othervise I’ll have a hard time believeing that a DPS of equal skill level to a tank would be outperfomed in damage done by a tank. I also have a hard time imagining that there’s a 50% disparity between the strongest and the weakest DPS, but I could of course be wrong. But as mentioned, I’d love to look at the charts and see for myself just how great the disparity is, as I haven’t experienced it myself when playing.
Healers should not have competent DPS, they’re already a pain in the ąss to deal with with WM on practically being in God Mode unless 5 people go on them… always see them with a bounty…
For PvE they shouldn’t be “expected” to DPS either if they don’t want to.
Again, this is from an m+ perspective, not pvp. The tuning for pvp would have to be separate.
I’m not sure what you mean with “competent dps”, with this change we would be at a tanks level of damage, which is still low compared to a DPS level of damage.
Why shouldn’t they be expected to DPS (eventually)? We expect tanks and DPS to (eventually) use defensives after all? If you go high enough in keys I personally believe that all roles should utilize their entire toolkit.
As previously stated, this wouldn’t enforce a change on the healers that prefer to stay afk during the windows where there’s no healing to be done, they can still do that. It would simply just reward a group with more time to finish the dungeon if the healer utilizes his/her damage.
Like M+ behaviour doesn’t bleed out into other parts of the game… this’ll lead to more healers being kicked from non-M+ content because idiots see they ain’t dps’ing.
We already got the “Go go go” mentality courtesy of M+ in casual content.
If people want to DPS role a DPS, hold aggro role a Tank, to heal role a healer.
https://mythicstats.com/dps
I know the range is from +12 to +20 keys, which can skew the results. But if we look at the “average/best” tab and consider the possibility of a “worst” or “below average” category, we can see that there are cases where a good tank can outperform weak DPS players. You can get more detailed stats from warcraftlogs.com.
The difference in average DPS within each category between the top-performing class and the worst is around 50% (and for healers, it’s even more).
For example, if an average resto druid does 140k DPS, but an average monk or discipline priest does 350k, despite providing the same amount of healing, the 200k DPS gap is significant. This directly impacts the time and efficiency of completing a dungeon.
Now imagine that instead of 350k, healers are doing over 1 million DPS because top DPS classes are doing well over 2 million—that would be 50%. Meanwhile, other classes that can’t reach such high numbers are still averaging around 1.3 million.
I’m well aware that it does, and if you do higher keys the healer will already be required to dps in their downtime, yet that still isn’t bleeding out into casual/low skill level content. Nobody (as far as I’ve experienced) is complaining about the healers damage in keys below +12, and even in the 12-13 key range it’s rare to remark on that.
Does this mean that you believe that tanks and DPS shouldn’t bother using defensives cause it’s the healers job to keep them alive? The tanks should focus fully on keeping agro, the DPS should focus fully on topping meters, and healers should focus fully on keeping everyone alive?
Thank you, I’ll have a look and then respond again later.
Edit:
I’ve looken hastily at the damage chart you provided and my opinion somewhat remains the same. Of course the data is skewed a tad bit because of the key range and this being damage done in practice, not in theory. I still believe healer damage could (and should) be buffed, but also that the damage of prot paladin should be brought in line with Brew and Blood and that the other tanks damage should be buffed. The underperforming DPS would then be buffed to the level of balance druid/frost DK, and the overperforming specs brought down. That would leave us with a general DPS damage output of 1.5-1.6M, Tank damage output to 750k-ish, and Healer damage output to 750k-ish.
Now, this is a dream scenario and we’ll never recieve perfect balance due to differences in utility, pull sizes/order and so on, but it would be a good thing to strive for.
And of course, as previously stated, the increased damage done by a healer would have to come at a cost like higher resources (mana).
I see that the first monk started as mw and then respecced into ww, so I’m not taking his damage into account, the following ones obviously do push their damage to the extreme as mw and gets rewarded properly for it, just as I want healers to be. If I contrast that to the best DPS at that key level (where mobs still fall over a bit too fast to really push damage) the monk does about 37% of their dmg. With that in mind monk is in a rather good position for damage that can be dealt, they would’t need a large buff at all if we go with my proposal.
As previously stated, underperforming DPS still of course needs to be buffed.
I’m just responding to the opinions you’re giving.
I’ve agreed from the very begininng that neither healer nor tanks should be on par with DPS, even the lowest. I believe it would be fair for both of them do somewhere around 50% of the damage a DPS does, given that the DPS specs are balanced properly. Maybe you’ve misunderstood me.
You give healers more dps its become a dps race, we already have ppl moaning about tank dps.
Ive gone in 5 mans and warrior tanks can literally top the meters why would you think healers need to that ???
Look i play tanks and heals as well as dpsers.
The way this game is meant to be is tanks tank, healers heal, and dps kill stuff.
If your wanting any more damage then suggest an across the board buff to pve dps.
If the dps is buffed it needs to be on pve targets only not players a flat buff across all will 10000% result in ppl one shotting eachother in bgs etc that needs avoiding like the plague.
Furthermore buffing healer to dps more will result in dpser’s quing as healers for faster que times and cause added probs for all concearned, even a small increase could cause the issue.
The long and short here is that ppl who wish to dps need to play as a dps not tanks or healer, the name of what you do is literally in the role description and its name yh ?
Obv theres merit to what your saying but increasing dps on roles not meant for it is bad.
I’m guessing they moved away from this intentionally. There were many complaints from healers about having to dps during SL. Personally I get that because I’m not great at healing while also executing a somewhat complex dps rotation, I’ll make mistakes somewhere and it sucks if people drop dead because of that
When the dps of healers is not that big, it gives them the freedom to respond to the group as it is. If others play well, they can dps more, and if not, they can focus on the healing. If their dps output was much higher, the expectation that they will deliver will be there while not every group makes sure this is a fun experience for the healer. These kind of expectations suck when you can’t live up to them through no fault of your own. In that sense I think it’s more sensible as it is now.
Been around since time immemorial - the idea that killing an enemy 10% quicker because you dps means 11% less healing required.
Interrupting/Stunning/knockbacks/slows are all part of a healer’s repertoire, as is their ability to dps to kill things quicker.
Thinking healers shouldn’t dps is failing to understand why you’re a healer - you are a healer to keep people alive and killing the enemy… shock horror… is a rather effective way of doing this!
Let’s have less complaining healers get to have fun playing the game and more focus on the issue of high key mythics are prot pallies and disc priests all the way down and those who provide balance can’t work out how to fix that.
Healers primary job keep people alive, am stick to the back teeth of people saying I need to do more dmg as a healer, We are not a support class like aug and we are there to keep you alive wile you do your one job as dps.
This really as to stop people expecting / wanting healers to do more than we already are, Who do you come to when you need dispells healers, who do you yell at when your standing in goop and want healing, oh yeh thats right the healers, who do you come to when the tank thinks hes rambo and pulls every pack in the instance oh yeh healers and who do you yell at when you die coz pressing a def button or a healing pot will make you lose DPS oh yeh the healer and lastly who’s to blame when something gose wrong yeh the healer…
Maby people need to understand what healers have to deal with every run and people wonder why there no healers anymore, now you want me to dps more as well… Ill pass I already have my hands full and a broom where the sun dont shine already to make sure you get that shiny item you want…
